Hi!
I just started training for a marathon! I'm pretty heavy and quickly realized I need to drop weight fast. I decided on Atkin's because hear about the quick results. Of course, we always here you MUST carbo load for endurance exercises. Well, here is my hypothesis. As I understand it, the phenomenom of "hitting the wall" is when your body has used up all it's glycogen stores, and is now trying to access your fat stores. Well, if we are in a state of ketosis and have surplus fat stores wouldn't we avoid hitting the wall beacause we would have already been burning fat for energy? Is this too simplistic? I noticed alot of you experienced endurance exercersicers still include some carbs for the long haul. Thanks for your input! Sincerely, Lisa

Hello Lisa,

Yes and No.

Everyone has to find what works for them and how to best work through the learning curve. There are a lot of factors to consider when you plan your eating habits around long distance kind of sports.

1. Level of exersion
2. Environmental factors (hot/cold, humidity, wind are the big 3 that come to mind.)
3. Length of exersion.
4. Your general condition.

Ok, I am certain others might modify or add to that list.

All of the data from the Atkins side says that cyclist (my personal form of exercise) perform better at MODERATE levels then their carb-loading friends. Moderate is relative with respect to items 1-4 above. I use a heart rate monitor for all of my cycling so that I can keep myself appraised of my exersion level.

As an example, today I did 80 km/ 50 miles. Temps were low, wind was light, averaged about 28 kph, I'm in good condition. My calorie requirements for that ride were about 2500 Kcals. Pre ride I ate rather minimal (about 400 Kcals, mostly fat) but I carried 27G of carbs in a gel, and additional 17 g of carbs in my home-made sports drink, and 45 g of carbs in a power bar. I did great and only needed to use my sports drink until the last 45 minutes and found I needed the extra boost from the carb gel but not the power bar.

I took in an additional 20 g of carbs as part of my dinner. That helps in a slightly quicker recovery then if I don't do that. All told, I will have had about 70 g of carbs today.

The kicker is that if you push your HR up towards the higher aerobic to anaerobic ranges, it will become impossible to keep your blood sugars up enough to perform and any where near your peak level. You could reach the point of the dreaded BONK which is the point were you have depleted all of your "ready energy reserves" and your body needs to refuel. Or, you can find the exersion level that is the best compromise of performance and yet allowing your body to work off of its fat stores. Anything above the later needs to be supplemented with foods that can be quickly converted to energy.

As I alluded to before, I think that after long duration exercise that some extra carbs are essential to more quickly recover. However, I do NOT carb load now as I did in the past. I am not an elite cyclist and my typical ave speed of 27-29 kph seems to be within my range to keep me "moderate" most of the time.

I am still learning and experimenting.

Thanks for your response. So it sounds like, at least while I'm induction, I should keep a slow consistent pace to avoid this BONK, of which you speak. Is this BONK the same as hitting the wall? Maybe if could stay on induction for 2-4 weeks, then up carbs slightly. To best utilize these carbs, do you recommend pre, during, or post run?
Thanks! Lisa
P.S. That's great that you are down from 305! Were you biking then? The date you have listed as 12/26/02. Is that when you were 305?

BONK is probably what you refer to as hitting the wall. (I think BONK is what cyclist refer to it as and the WALL is what runners call it. ) If you were in a car...OUT OF GAS LOL


I've biked most of my adult life. I was up to 305 about this time a year ago. That is when I bought my mountain bike, aka...FAT A$$ BIKE! LOL I didn't want to subject my race bike to that weight. Of course, I did give myself a goal last October... I bought a brand new TREK 5200, custom paint job, the works. The same bike that was used in the Tour de France by the USPS team. Told myself I couldn't ride it till I got below 250. I was 275 then. My wife would kill me if I didn't meet that goal. LOL She said that if I let it become a $3600 dust collector...well, you get the rest.

So, the date of 12/26 is when I started Atkins and I was 270 then. I've hit a plateau for the last 30 days at around 234 but, I'm not too worried. I just hang in there and keep peddling my butt on the roads. BTW, the new bike is AWSOME!!!!!! Well, except for the seat. I'm replaceing that very soon. Yesterdays' ride was a bit, umm, numbing. LOL

so, getting back to the topic, I think you want to keep a pace that is sufficient to keep you happy and yet keep you out of bonk. I think that if you take in 10-20 extra carb grams (depending on the calories you burn during the run) that you would be OK.

As to when...I tend to take them in during the ride as needed. So, on those good days where I don't feel the bonk approach, I man not take in any extra carbs. HOWEVER...I always replace the calories expended during the workout! The other thing to consider it recovery time. If you stay slow to moderate, you may not find a need to take in many extra carbs even if you are running on a daily basis. However, if you do extend yourself on a daily basis, then the carbs might assist in faster recovory. Now, that being said, if you extend yourself every other day, you may find that is sufficient recovery time to avoid the extra carbs.

Everyone is different. YMMV! I have found that part of the fun is experimenting a bit and learning what works for me.

GOOD LUCK!

Hitting the wall isn't all about carbs. It's also the lactic acid that builds up in the muscles. And there's always some degree of dehydration. All of it works together to create the wall. Hitting the wall doesn't happen to well-conditioned runners who pay attention to details.

I would seriously consider skipping the induction part of Atkins if you plan to begin marathon training.

I really appreciate getting these responses from seasoned trained endurance exercisers! I'm training for the Chicago marathon October 12. This is my first time. My mileage isn't real high yet. This Saturday will be my longest run yet- 8 miles. On day 2 of induction, it was horrible. Very quickly into the run, I realized I had nothingh to go on. I hypothesized it was because, I didn't have very much glycogen reserves and my body had not gone in to ketosis yet to utilize fat stores. Now I'm in ketosis, and I've had the longest most enjoyable run to date! Again, I'm a newbie to both Atkin's and running. My run this morning was only 4 miles, but for me that's huge! And, I'm not hungry (although I am about to eat some egg and tuna salad w/mayo).
Since I'm already on day 5 of induction, and feel great, do you think it would be safe to finish out the last 9 days. What do you think is the worst case scenario? I'm not doing anything dangerous, am I?
There used to be a woman on this board, who was running 10 to 12 miles everyday, and at under 20 carbs everydaty. I remember her stats said she was about 95-100 lbs. She always maintained she felt great. I thought if a 100 lbs woman feels good doing this, I, with all my fat stores, should be just fine! LOL!
Sincerely, Lisa
Thank you again, everyone!

I would just suggest that you keep your runs "enjoyable" for the duration of induction. I think it is a trade off to decide whether to stay with induction a bit longer for the quicker weight loss it brings, or to start serious training for longer distances and/or faster speeds.

I opted for induction untill about 2 weeks ago (a total of 4.5 mo.) where I felt that my desire to perform better outweighed my need to loose weight quickly. I sorta hit to point of diminishing returns of induction vs. my cycling. I also think my body was telling me it was time to move on. I think I was a bit affraid to leave the simple comfort of induction and move through the OWL phase.

I think the turning point for me was that I was back to my lowest weight since Aug of 1999, I was already in the best cycling shape I had been in a long time, I was feeling great about what I had accomplished, and I have developed a new found patience in reaching my goal weight because Iwas feeling happy and not anxious.

Lots of great advice here. YMMV. Listen to your body.

I agree 100%!
My runs are relatively short-my longest to date is 6.5. I couldn't run that whole distance at that time, but now I think I just might be able to pull off the 8 miler Saturday!
I think I'm were you were before. Right now, I need rapid weight loss. My runs aren't terribly long yet and I run pretty slow (anywhere from10-12 minute mile). Maybe when I drop 30-40 lbs, I'll start to add my carbs back. I imagine that would put me on induction for about 2 months, ugh! Then I can work more on performance. Right now, however, it's just a matter of getting through the runs. Every step I take feels like I'm running with a 50 lb. backpack on, and that keeps my runs from being as enjoyable as I know they can be.
Sincerely, Lisa

I have got to say since being on atkins induction (for 3 weeks now) my training has been far more difficult. I am doing several triathlons this year and have been in training since Jan. after a few months off and a few pounds gained :-). What I have noticed is that when cycling if I stay at a medium pace on relativly flat roads I seem to have no energy issues everything is fine. It is only when I hit a hill and need strength that I am suffering. My pace up the hills has dropped a couple of mph from normal. My legs feel like they have ridden 100 miles and almost feel as if they would cramp. My swimming and running also seem weaker.

Having been a cyclist for many many years I know that feeling. I know that the feeling I am getting is hitting the wall or bonking (they mean the same) It comes from glycegen depletion in the muscles. There is no energy store left in the muscle. Before atkins I would fuel with gatorade and perhaps an energy bar and would avoid this feeling. If I did not fuel properly I would end up spent.

I have also noticed that I have a few more aches and pains that don't seem to want to go away.

Well Sunday when my ride sucked so bad I decided to up my carbs from 20 daily to 35 daily to see if that might help. I noticed that the aches I had been feeling for 2 weeks subsided almost immediately. Perhaps it was just a coincidence I don't know. I plan the same ride I did on Sunday tonight. I will let you know if my performance has changed.

Anyway I suspect that athletic people need more than just induction carbs to train at high levels of exertion. Fat for fuel seems to be sufficient for a lower more steady exertion, but not for high output sprints and climbs.

good luck on the marathon

I don't know if there is anything dangerous about induction; but I certainly don't enjoy it and have difficulty doing quality runs like hill training, speedwork or long runs. Those are the building blocks of my training and I've run poorly on induction or at very low carb levels.

Rapid weight loss is probably not a great objective either. You must take it off to keep it off, which is a life changing event, not a short term objective. You have to build your other goals with the thought of moderate weight loss.

As for the lady who was running 10 milers on low carb, that was JKMom, I believe. Keep in mind that she was eating a lot of vegetables, as well as almond butter. She ate a fairly low carb diet; but I doubt it was below 20.

Hello

I do competitve cycling and early in the season wanted to 'lean up' prior to serious training for racing. I had already logged about 750 miles prior to Atkins. keep in mind I was 179 and wanted to get to 173-174 lbs. I felt fine around the house, but as soon as I got on the bike I was a zombie. This was after about a week and a half after the induction. I couldnt ride 10 mph downhill with a tailwind. I am lean as it is, but I knew that the protein wasnt charging the muscles, it never was mean to be fuel, and if u take too much it makes ammonia, which makes u sleepy. So after two miserable rides I went back on complex carbs (oatmeal breakfast, whole grain pasta) mixed with the lean meats and veggies of Atkins. THEN I was rocking like a hurricane. all the cramps, dizzy, etc went bye bye and now I can scale the Alps (I live in Switzerland) like I used to. Still lost some weight.

From Atkins it motivated me to cut the crap food that I ate. Coke, candy, cookies, fries. Look, most of us KNOW that stuff is bad for us, no bloody book needs to tell me that. so with cheap carbs and sugar gone from my diet and now only on lean meats (chicken etc) combined with complex carbs I am balanced and feel fine. I think Atkins works fine for the person who has no time for exercise (or is lazy) and wants a weight fix and to get off junk food, but if you burn what you put in with exercise, complex carbs and protein co-exist no problem. it is the gloat who does no exercise that has to fear. but then one should exercise regardless, not do it half way and eat and sit around permanently.

If you want real science on what to drink/eat/carbs and protein for endurance athletes (cycling, running), go to this link. http://www.ultracycling.com/nutriti..._endurance.html

Keep hammering!
Alex

It can be pretty difficult to keep the carbs below 20g per day. I thought I was doing that then noticed the red beans I was having for lunch were soaked in corn syrup. The point is unless you're reading the labels and measuring everything with a kitchen scale it's hard to under 20g a day. That's too much like weight watchers. I know I'll lose weight if I avoid simple sugars and run 50 miles a week. I can see now why long term low carb athletes don't micro-manage their diets. Common sense eating solves the problem.

BeefyB,
Sounds familiar, I had many of the same problems running.
I'm a teacher and also started to have trouble getting up in the morning and staying alert through the day. I'm back to waking around 5:30 without an alarm.

In my average training mode I run about 50 miles per week (mostly on trails). I am following the Schwarzbein Principle. She suggests upping your carbs to allow for increased activity. On training runs over ten miles I eat or drink 200 calories an hour. I do not carbo load before any races (50 milers or 50ks). After a long run I drink a good protein drink. As a race director (PCT 50 Miler) I have seen many a good runner not eat or drink enough and fall to pieces out on the course. I have also seen many recover and go on to finish. I have also tried to go on a long training run with only low carb food such as veggies, it did not work I was a mess until I ate some Power gels.

My latest plan to get this weight off is to go lower carb during the week as I do my shorter stuff then and up the carbs on the weekend. This extra weight really makes a difference!!!!!

Good luck to you as you train for your marathon!
Regards,
Maureen