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NEMarvin Mon, Feb-08-16 12:45

Zero Carb, wow!
I stumbled across a blog post by a woman doing zero carb, and I'll admit, I found the simplicity and straightforwardness of it appealing, and her results were phenomenal. Plus she had been doing it long term, which was a plus. She referenced a FB page for the Zero Carb people. a cat, I'm curious, so I request to join and am accepted.

After a few days reading their posts, and the comments that come with it, OMG, I'm taken aback! They seem bitter, caustic, and on the attack! In the comments on one post, I found strong and bitter bashing of LCHF proponents, attacks on Jimmy Moore, attacks on Intermittent Fasting, attacks on cooking your meat in butter, attacks on salt. I mean, if what you're doing works for you,that's great, but do you have to bash what other people are doing and what they find works for them?

I'm guessing their movement have been the subject of attacks from other camps, but I think they've forgotten that LC and ZC are really a lot closer than they seem to be portraying?!?!? We have common opponents (like the ADA, ADEA, AHA, etc), so it would seem that we could coexist.

I was amazed and shocked at how negative they were about things LC. Anybody here ZC? It seems like we could rightfully coexist.

Or...anybody encounter this group themselves? Your experience?

JEY100 Mon, Feb-08-16 13:27

There are two threads right at the top of the Paleo sub-forum.
Think There are more links in those threads...not sure which sites you refer to.

I have read a few zero carb forums at times, mostly about cancer, though do not follow it. An intelligent website Is by Amber O'Hearn.

NEMarvin Mon, Feb-08-16 15:02

Thanks for pointing me to that. That forum doesn't look very busy, and some crossover to what I understand is now defunct Zeroing In On Health Forum. The facebook group is called the Zeroing In On Health and in looking at it today, I'm seeing more encouraging posts and not so many negative ones. So maybe what I saw is an aberration. I'm pretty much live and let live. If something works for you, do it. And I will focus on what works for me.

MickiSue Mon, Feb-08-16 15:15

Marvin, there are, in any group in any forum, people who are jerks. There just are; it's a fact of life on the internet.

For some reason, they tend to shy away from THIS forum, perhaps because of strong moderators here.

I haven't been to that FB forum, but I have heard stories about them, so your experience isn't a surprise to me.

If there is good info there, then you can choose to put the jerks on Ignore. That can really be helpful, for people whose comments are rarely anything but nasty.

muffles Mon, Feb-08-16 17:56

I used to go to a zero carb forum where there were crazy angry rants all the time. Too much for me to handle. I think that forum is no more, after too many implosions.

M Levac Mon, Feb-08-16 19:42

MickySue is right, there's jerks everywhere you look, doesn't mean anything about the group itself, unless of course the group calls itself Jerks or something. Also, are we talking about the people or the diet? The diet is just fine as long as you follow a few simple rules. The rules aren't for the people, they're for the diet. For example, you gotta eat some fresh meat some of the time, can't be overcooked all the time. Cooking destroys some elements, see? These aren't rules of behavior, they're rules of physiology. It's like vegans, they have to supplement with a bunch of things, and it's got nothing to do with their belief, but with their physiology, see? Well, one could take it to the extreme and make it a way of life, an ideology. It's not a way of life, it's just the stuff you eat.

With that said, ZC is strict so it's hard to stick with, so it tends to attract people who can stick with a strict diet, and those people tend to not compromise, in other words to not be reasonable. The quality of being reasonable extends father than just the stuff you eat. For our purpose, it extends to how we behave toward other people. So, the very nature of ZC tends to attract jerks. It's just a tendency, you can fight it, but it's so very hard to fight tendencies, especially your own.

On a personal note, I used to be a jerk, I also did a ZC stint a while back. Maybe there's a connection, I don't really care. I much prefer to not be a jerk, there's more perks to being nice. I prefer to be around people who are nice, and there's tons of nice people on this forum, so I stick around, follow the few simple rules of conduct, i.e. don't be a jerk. Well, maybe it's just the forum you visited, its rules allow one to be a jerk maybe? I visited a few forums like that, I didn't really like it either.

I just checked the new ZOIH site, it's got a chicken meatball recipe with onions in it. Well, that's a no-no. ZC is strict, so the fact that ZOIH posts a recipe with onions in it tells me Charles decided to get reasonable. As I remember, he wasn't always like that, and he probably knew it. Doesn't mean anything about ZC itself, it's still just as strict as it ever was, and I'm sure Charles would agree. So, in a debate or discussion for example, one who eats that recipe can't say "I ate a ZC meal", cuz one would be lying.

NEMarvin Mon, Feb-08-16 20:33

I've been a member of forums for a lot of different interests. By and large, forums of people trying to lose weight are the most gentle, and are least judgmental of people who do things or believe things differently than they do. It is often said, "the same thing doesn't necessarily work for all of us." I don't belittle you for what you so, and vice versa. A lot of these comments were very judgmental about LCHF and the people who choose it.

MickiSue Tue, Feb-09-16 08:53

Yes, but that's kind of the whole point. IF you are capable of going completely zero carb--and that doesn't mean meatballs with onions in them--you are probably intensely focused. And people who are intensely focused, just like people who are scattered, believe, in their hearts of hearts, that everyone is mostly like them.

The difference is that, if you are scattered, you are a bit more forgiving: you understand that things get lost in the flotsam and jetsam in the brain. But if you are intensely focused, you DON'T understand that, and you kind of assume that people who don't live as you do are lazy, or fooling themselves or whatever, and you can easily go from that belief to disdain for them and their lives.

I see it, a bit, in myself. There are people who routinely go off plan for what seem to me to be trivial reasons: a party, the holidays, a vacation, a family dinner at Mom's, whatever. And, if they want to do that, it's their life. But I get a little nuts when they then proceed to complain that this WOE doesn't work, and what can they do differently?

I yell to myself: stick to THIS WOE, that's what you can do differently!

But. As M. says, it's much more pleasant to be around nice people. So I either say nothing, or I try to suggest that staying 100% on plan for at least two months will show them whether or not it really works.

If I don't care, because I have an extremely rigid view of what works, because it works for ME, therefore, everyone should do it, well, I just might be a jerk, anyway.

cotonpal Tue, Feb-09-16 09:15

I stay away from forums where people give free reign to their nastiness. On diet related forums if your intent is to help other people become healthy or convince them that your way is the most beneficial then it is best to refrain from nastiness. It tends to alienate people not bring them into the fold. If your intent is to demonstrate your superiority then that's a different story and nastiness does a very good job of demonstrating to others that you believe that you are superior.

There are certainly people on this forum whose attitude gets in the way of their success and instead of looking inward to try to figure out how they can change themselves they look outward and blame the diet or blame their circumstances or blame something that is external to themselves. I too find this way of looking at things frustrating. Sometimes I won't respond because I am afraid that my frustration will get in the way of my saying anything that might be helpful. Other times I try to think of a way to phrase things that the other person might be able to hear and might help them turn things around.

I think it often comes down to whether your intention is to show that you are a superior being or if your intention is to be truly helpful.


NEMarvin Tue, Feb-09-16 09:19

Great Points, Mikki Sue. Focus does have a lot to do with it. But I am very suspicious of people who have THE answer, because I usually find that the people who are shouting the loudest and most vociferously have some deep dark side that they are hiding. This has come out in many circumstances in my 55 years.

The site that Janet posted (Amber's site) and one that Kelly and James Hogan have put together seem a lot less militant.

Honestly I could see myself going this way except I don't want to become a jerk. LOL. Seriously, I would need to do a little more research on gluconeogenesis, but it would seem to me that a lot of what zero carb proposes would be similar to combining LCHF and Fasting. But....I've only seen hatred form ZCers about Fasting. They see it as lowering the metabolic rate, which I'm not 100% sure about yet.

From what I can gather, their most compelling point about meat and water only is that it really doesn't give the body any "fuel" to create cravings. It sounds like many of the "old-timers" tried LCHF but found that even the acceptable vegetables gave them cravings.

MickiSue Tue, Feb-09-16 09:40

Well, if they are convinced that IF leads to lowered metabolism, then they need to do some research, don't they?

GRB5111 Tue, Feb-09-16 09:53

Marvin - as you may already know, there are some who follow the ZC WOE on this forum who tend to be kinder, gentler than what you encountered. I no longer have time for those who judge from a negative perspective. Usually, when I encounter something like that, I'm out of there.

I've been intrigued by the ZC approach, but not enough to embrace it. There are many metabolic questions I'd like to see addressed including the health impact of gluconeogenesis from a pure protein and fat diet, essential nutrient composition, and the long-term health implications of this very holistic WOE. I'm not sure there's enough information to make an informed decision on this approach. Maybe soon, but not yet. Many are positive about the resulting positive health impacts of this WOE, however, so I'll continue to learn in order to adapt my LCHF approach in the future.

teaser Tue, Feb-09-16 10:10

When you come to the point where things like salt and mustard are forbidden--if the diet works for a person when it's pure meat alone, but not with zero or extremely low flavourings like these, I don't see what that has to do with zero carb, these things bring little carbohydrate to the table. It could be a palatability thing--but then, people being different, some people should be able to tolerate some condiment, some shouldn't. I do think there's a point to all that--our tongues have glutamate sensors (umami taste) for a reason, and I think that other flavours can sort of weaken the signal by distraction. A friend once cooked me an almost rare steak on the barbecue. We ran out of gas. I ate about half, and was stuffed. The thing was huge. He wouldn't believe me when I said I'd had enough. So he fried it a little on the stove--I had a bite, the yummy advance glycation endproducts from the frying rewoke my appetite. Ate some more, again couldn't finish it. He fried it a bit more--and it became yummier again. I think simple food is a reasonable approach--it's just that there's nothing intrinsically zero carb about it.

NEMarvin Tue, Feb-09-16 10:14

Originally Posted by MickiSue
Well, if they are convinced that IF leads to lowered metabolism, then they need to do some research, don't they?

I do believe they don't have all of the information. But it seems as though a lot of how Dr. Fung shrugs off that concern is more anecdotal than scientific. I have not seen any actual studies referenced on his blog that show that Fasting doesn't reduce our metabolism. He usually responds to that question, it seems, with more anecdotal evidence, particularly the "caveman" example of, if a caveman doesn't have food to eat for a day or two, would his metabolism just shutdown, and when he puts it that way, it sounds like a ludicrous supposition, but I don't see research on his blog that actually supports that. Granted, I haven't watched all of the videos because of the length (and like others, would prefer to read rather than watch videos), but I think that's a good homework exercise for me.

M Levac Tue, Feb-09-16 10:55

Rob, you should start with the Bellevue all-meat experiment if you have questions about eating only meat. Direct link to one of the papers written on it:

I'm looking for a BG number but I don't find it in that paper. In my personal experience, when I ate all-meat, my BG was 67mg/dl. I didn't suffer anything that could be described as hypoglycemia or anything like that. On the contrary, I had ample energy, my brain was working just fine and even better than it ever did before or since. If there was a risk of losing muscle mass due to protein loss from conversion to glucose, I didn't see it, I was getting stronger, not weaker. Don't take my word for it, I'm just some guy and I didn't measure anything with any accuracy. But I think that if that's how it went for me, then that's how it must also go for others, and you should be able to find some info on that elsewhere. If you find contradictory info, dig deeper.

If you want to try it, there's only a few simple rules you gotta stick with. Eat when hungry and to satiety, eat enough fat, don't overcook so eat fresh meat most of the time. The term fresh has a specific meaning here. It means that it hasn't been cooked, not that it's been recently killed or recently butchered or cut, or it hasn't been cured. Cured meat is still fresh if it hasn't been cooked before curing, see? Cooking destroys some elements, those elements are essential. I'm not too sure which elements they are, but they're there and they make the difference between health and disease like scurvy for example. I think it's the lean meat that needs to be fresh, the fat can be cooked all the way through. It's because of pemmican, which is a mix of rendered fat and raw dried lean meat, and it's just as good as fresh meat. Rendered fat is cooked, it's just cooked in water. And raw dried lean meat hasn't been cooked, it's just dried.

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