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jem51

Tue, Aug-09-11, 21:46

PJ, I think we had a discussion about this early on.
If I remember correctly, Peat uses refined. He indicated (or someone did) that the residue in unrefined is what causes problems (cold sores for me).

The organic refined is processed w/o chemicals so is quality product.
I bought a jar and it is fine but there's no flavor...which I miss.

Cathy B.

Tue, Aug-09-11, 21:51

rightnow

Tue, Aug-09-11, 22:29

Coffee jello is what it sounds like to me. ;-)

PJ

Annabel33

Tue, Aug-09-11, 22:59

Whoa, that's a lot of gelatine to get through!

Cathy B.

Tue, Aug-09-11, 23:31

Whoa, that's a lot of gelatine to get through!

You can say that again, Annabel! I actually just did it. So far, not so good!

I had a strip steak for dinner. (Yes, I had dinner at midnight. Sounds strange, I know, but when you don't go to bed until 4 A.M. or later, it's not THAT strange.) I weighed my cooked steak, hoping it was a LOT less than 8 oz. Well, it was 7.10 oz. :-( So I put about 2.5 tablespoons of the gelatin in my coffee mug and covered it with water. Then brewed the decaf coffee and combined it. Added my usual half and half and sugar.

I have to say, the taste wasn't terrible, BUT it wasn't as good as with 1 tablespoon of gelatin. There is only SO much extra crap you can add to a cup of coffee before it stops tasting like coffee, and I think this was getting mighty darn close. It resembled coffee, let's put it that way.

The good news is it didn't taste like dead cows and the also good news is it didn't *gel* when I added the half and half and sugar, as I feared it would.

The bad news is I thought for sure I was going to die after I drank it! I have a bit of a sensitivity to gelatin. I couldn't touch the stuff for the first couple of months I was "Peat-ing", just had to rely on beef broths I made. My heart would pound, my face would flush, my pulse would race. Dr. Peat told me to stick to the bone broths and maybe try the collagen hydrolysate. However, after a couple of months of Peat eats, I found most of my food sensitivities had disappeared, so I tried a little bit of the gelatin and didn't get a reaction. So then I made "jello" with it and puddings and in the past month or so, started adding 1 tablespoon to my coffee.

Well, apparently 2.5 tablespoons in one serving is a bit much for my tolerance level! About 10 minutes after finishing the coffee, my face was beet red, I was sweating profusely, my temperature shot up to 99 degrees (I checked because it felt like about 105!), and my heart was pounding! I was thinking, "I will take hypothyroidism any day over THIS!"

Well, if nothing else, it is good for portion control, because from here on out, I will be eating MUCH smaller servings of steak if I need to consume 2.5 grams of gelatin per ounce of steak!

I will say, however, that now that the "crisis" seems to have passed and my temperature is back down to 98.5 and I don't feel like I am about to explode into flames, I feel rather calm and like my muscles are more relaxed. I even feel like I am getting sleepy and it is "only" 1:30 A.M.! (Way early for me.) So there do appear to be some benefits.

I do see more pot roast in my future, however. I will take beef broth any day over THAT experience!

Annabel33

Wed, Aug-10-11, 04:48

You can say that again, Annabel! I actually just did it. So far, not so good!

:lol:

The good news is it didn't taste like dead cows..

Oh well that's a relief! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The bad news is I thought for sure I was going to die after I drank it! I have a bit of a sensitivity to gelatin. I couldn't touch the stuff for the first couple of months I was "Peat-ing", just had to rely on beef broths I made. My heart would pound, my face would flush, my pulse would race. Dr. Peat told me to stick to the bone broths and maybe try the collagen hydrolysate. However, after a couple of months of Peat eats, I found most of my food sensitivities had disappeared, so I tried a little bit of the gelatin and didn't get a reaction. So then I made "jello" with it and puddings and in the past month or so, started adding 1 tablespoon to my coffee.

Well, apparently 2.5 tablespoons in one serving is a bit much for my tolerance level! About 10 minutes after finishing the coffee, my face was beet red, I was sweating profusely, my temperature shot up to 99 degrees (I checked because it felt like about 105!), and my heart was pounding! I was thinking, "I will take hypothyroidism any day over THIS!"

Well, if nothing else, it is good for portion control, because from here on out, I will be eating MUCH smaller servings of steak if I need to consume 2.5 grams of gelatin per ounce of steak!

I will say, however, that now that the "crisis" seems to have passed and my temperature is back down to 98.5 and I don't feel like I am about to explode into flames, I feel rather calm and like my muscles are more relaxed. I even feel like I am getting sleepy and it is "only" 1:30 A.M.! (Way early for me.) So there do appear to be some benefits.

I do see more pot roast in my future, however. I will take beef broth any day over THAT experience!

I am so sorry but I have just cried laughing over your post. :lol: :o Don't mean to be harsh, but the way you wrote it is sooo funny! I ate a little more this afternoon and it had a bit of an unpleasant gaseous experience so I'll build up a little more slowly. :D

Do you know why it raises your temp so much?

BiBa

Wed, Aug-10-11, 05:55

I ate a little more this afternoon and it had a bit of an unpleasant gaseous experience so I'll build up a little more slowly. :D
Dr. Peat says that UNdissolved gelatin can produce gas; so, maybe it might not be a question of quantity, only...

jem51

Wed, Aug-10-11, 08:26

I quit just adding it to food. It is always dissolved now....much better.

sollyb

Wed, Aug-10-11, 09:50

Interesting tidbit I came across tonight in Peat's article, "Tryptophan, Serotonin, and Aging":

"If a half-pound of steak is eaten, it would probably be reasonable to have about 20 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time. Even a higher ratio of gelatin to muscle meat might be preferable."

Good grief! That is about 3 times as much as I have been using! I wonder how 3 tablespoons of gelatin in my coffee will be? I have only been using one. Guess I will find out soon enough!

(Good thing I just ordered 4 cans!) :lol:

I used 2 T in my coffee this am, and it was fine. But.......I've also ordered the collagen hydrosalate, as I think if I tolerate it, I could add more to liquids without them becoming too slimy in mouth feel. AND, I could add it to ice cream, which I tried with the regular gelatin and found disgusting. And nothing on earth will get me to eat cottage cheese with ice cream, LOL.
sol

amandawald

Wed, Aug-10-11, 12:47

I quit just adding it to food. It is always dissolved now....much better.

Hi jem51,

I have managed to score some "regular" gelatine here in Germany, powdered porcine gelatine, just in little 9g sachets. I tried putting it in some orange juice as is, but it just got stuck on the side of the glass, mostly, and I don't think that much ended up in me. When I tried adding it straight to warm milk, I just got tiny jelly blobs which were not pleasant either...

So I decided to do something really wild!!! I read the instructions on the packet!!! Which told me to dissolve the contents in about 60ml of cold water and leave it to stand for ten minutes. I did this and am now adding portions of this jelly to my coffee: it dissolves instantly, leaves no strange mini-blobs and is completely unnoticeable in terms of taste, too.

I also added some to some GF instant gravy powder to have with some meatballs and that worked great, too! I am going to try it in my next batch of homemade GF bread as well.

I shall never use the gelatine in its "straight" form again - it works soooo much better if you dissolve it in some water first!!!

Dana Carpender has it neat and about a billion of her blog readers are all complaining about getting gummy mouths and being generally grossed out. When I read all these complaints, though, I kept thinking, "Do they not have instructions on the gelatine in America? About how you actually make it for adding to food???"

If you just have the jelly stuff, it is so easy to add to things. I slept a whole bunch better last night after adding a larger amount to some warm milk with vanilla sugar. I may even up the amount tonight to see if that makes any difference to my sleep quality.

amanda

sanlee

Wed, Aug-10-11, 12:52

Amanda said: Do they not have instructions on the gelatine in America?
LOL, they do, but many of us don't read the instructions either :-)

Merpig

Wed, Aug-10-11, 13:47

Here I am in Maine for the night, on my way to a week in Canada. I *meant* to bring my gelatin with me so I could have it up there, but naturally I forgot. But I suppose I could always buy the packets of Knox in the supermarket for a week :D

sanlee

Wed, Aug-10-11, 14:19

Debbie, will you get a chance to meet up with Cathy? Either way, have a fun and safe trip!

Merpig

Wed, Aug-10-11, 15:42

Debbie, will you get a chance to meet up with Cathy? Either way, have a fun and safe trip! Actually we are supposed to meet for dinner in about 15 minutes. :D

sanlee

Wed, Aug-10-11, 15:54

Enjoy!!!!!

rightnow

Wed, Aug-10-11, 16:22

I just got my order of CH. I put 2 Tbsp (14g) in 10oz of 2% milk and stirred awhile. I got distracted for about 7 minutes and then came back to it. A good deal had settled gummy on the bottom but it stirred back in.

Smell: don't breathe in while drinking.

Taste: moderately vile but not strong, and I will caveat this by adding that it's kind of like 'protein powder' -- which it literally is, actually -- and I had a whole lot of it, in not that much of something, with not very strong a taste.

Aftertaste: only mildly vile. Shades of licking a cow's hide on a hot day.

It did however dissolve in cold liquid, and the taste is not real strong even at that concentration. So I think it will be just fine in juice, in milk in smaller amounts, any broths, and anything else I can think of.

PJ

sanlee

Wed, Aug-10-11, 17:01

Aftertaste: only mildly vile. Shades of licking a cow's hide on a hot day. LMAO!

I finally went with making flavored "Jello" -- couldn't deal with it in drinks, hot or cold.

Merpig

Wed, Aug-10-11, 18:54

sanlee

Wed, Aug-10-11, 19:09

You both look beautiful! What a coincidence -- another Maine friend of mine went to Dysart's today -- they had a special on their famous molasses cookies! Not Peat-friendly, but what does she know :-)

Annabel33

Wed, Aug-10-11, 19:36

... Shades of licking a cow's hide on a hot day.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Fabulous!

rightnow

Wed, Aug-10-11, 20:17

That's awesome you guys! You look really happy! I'm so glad you got to meet someone from the forum. I love meeting people in person that I first met online! I've only met Batspit from this forum -- she's both lovely and brainy, and her husband's a monsterbrain and a really nice guy. But I've met lots of other people over the years from other places and it's always so cool to meet another aspect of someone! I am sometimes very diff in person than I am 'in writing'.

PJ

Cathy B.

Wed, Aug-10-11, 20:56

Geez, Debbie, you could at least have photoshopped out my double chin! :-)

I had a great time meeting Debbie, too! (She has a great laugh!) We just picked right up where we left off on our last posts!

We shared a plate of Peat friendly "Irish Nachos", made with their home made potato chips (not fried in coconut oil, I am sure, but oh well) topped with bacon, tomatoes, and melted cheese, with sour cream on the side. So good! When I get my bucket of coconut oil, I shall be making my own version at home!

Safe travels, Debbie!

Doug78

Thu, Aug-11-11, 03:33

My husband is allergic to beef and actually anything that comes from cows, milk, and cheese, everything. When he was diagnosed over 15 years ago now, his then allergist, close to retirement then, told my husband he was seeing beef allergy more and more often. He also said that when he started his medical career, beef allergy was simply unheard of. He felt it was all the crap they shove into the animals now causing it.

I believe this to be true of eggs, and commercial dairy also, even the cheeses. I am fortunate that my grocery store is now carrying Daisy brand cottage cheese. And also sells a couple brands of half and half with no carrageenan, Daisy sour cream with no carrageenan, too, but still cannot get cream here without it.
sol

I think it's more likely that allergy to beef and eggs are always a secondary allergy ie bought about by damage to the gut from a primary allergen like gluten grains and cow's milk, soy, corn, carrageenan etc There's a good example of it in these case studies on infants:

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC2863274

the allergy to animal proteins went away after the grains and cow milk were removed. Has your husband ever done a gut healing diet like the SCD to treat his allergies?

amandawald

Thu, Aug-11-11, 04:30

I just got my order of CH.

PJ

Hi PJ,

What is CH???

amanda

Merpig

Thu, Aug-11-11, 04:46

I love meeting people in person that I first met online! Me too! I really think it's wonderful. I've met a bunch of people over the years from an online reading and chat group I've been part of for about a dozen years now, and it's always been wonderful. I even went on vacation to Quebec's Gaspe peninsula with a group of them once for a week. I remember one time that group had a get-together (but it was in London so I was not present, :lol: ) and one newish woman came to the group, rather timidly, as her husband had warned her all about the "dangers" of meeting people she had only known online. One of the other people in the group decided they should have had a big sign to hold up so she could find them, which would have read: "SEE, WE'RE NOT ALL AXE MURDERERS!" :D

I'm also a pastel artist (http://www.dcusickart.com/) as one of my hobbies and take weekly classes with a fabulous teacher and a really great group of women, which I will miss dearly. But I also participate in an online art community at www.wetcanvas.com and found out there is a woman in the pastel groups there who lives right in the next town I'll be moving to in Florida, so I plan to get together with her and she will introduce me to some art communities down there. The online world is wonderful!

It was such a blast to meet Cathy - but time was short so I couldn't do much about our chins in the photo at this time, :lol: :lol:. I'm getting ready to head off to Canada now. The hotel here has a nice free buffet breakfast everying morning, and I just had some sausage and hard-boiled egg, and Maine baked beans. I know the baked beans are not Peat-approved, but they are a Maine specialty.

I may not be around for the next week or so. Up where I'm going I only I 24K dialup access to the internet which severely limits how much I can do, but I'll certainly catch up when I get back.

BiBa

Thu, Aug-11-11, 06:41

http://forum.lowcarber.org/gallery/files/1/2/2/3/4/1/Cathy2.jpgGirls - you look gorgeous and luminouos!!!

Jennifer32

Thu, Aug-11-11, 09:05

CH - Collagen Hydrolysate

Right?

sanlee

Thu, Aug-11-11, 09:35

Jennifer said: CH - Collagen Hydrolysate
You're right! It's the quick dissolving gelatin that doesn't congeal. Great Lakes has it, but you have to order a ton at a time.

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 09:47

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 09:57

[QUOTE=
the allergy to animal proteins went away after the grains and cow milk were removed. Has your husband ever done a gut healing diet like the SCD to treat his allergies?[/QUOTE]

The allergy did not go away........but without ingesting the allergens the reactions stopped.

When he "cheats" he still gets the same old symptoms even all these years later.

He will not give up bread, period. So no way to know if gluten free would help him or not......

And who am I to say? he's the same age as me, and aside from his allergies, is healthier than your average horse, hasn't been to a doctor in about 30 years, hasn't even had a general physical since the 70s.......he works rings around men 40 years his junior........just a few years ago, doing one of his long walks, he ran up the stairs to the trestle bridge over the railroad tracks (very high, LOTS of steps) past a teenage boy trudging up the same steps who was huffing and puffing.....the kid said loudly "damned old fart must be a mountain goat".
sol

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 10:03

Hi, Just a quick update as I want to rest up before my drive to Canada in the morning, but Cathy and I met for dinner tonight at Dysart's (http://www.dysarts.com/index.php?id=315&sub_id=205) in Bangor, ME. It was great! It was so wonderful to meet Cathy in person. She is still on her way home now as she had a much longer drive than I had (roughly 1 hour vs. about 30 seconds to get back to my hotel (http://www.whitehouseinnbangor.com/))

http://forum.lowcarber.org/gallery/files/1/2/2/3/4/1/Cathy2.jpg

Great photo! But who is who? I confess, in my state of vision at the moment, I have extremely little intermediate vision and can't see the pic, well enough to tell which of the two beaming ladies is Debbie?
It is a great pic! You both look SO happy! I CAN tell that, LOL.
sol

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 10:16

I believe that Tropical Traditions Coconut Oil seems to be the coconut oil of choice for many Peat-ers, including the professional consultant types. And I think it is about to become MINE. I am currently paying $8.45 for 14 oz. of Spectrum Organics. That $44 price for a one gallon BUCKET looks mighty tempting to me! (Too bad about the extra $9 charge for a pail opener!) It would cost me $76.80 for 128 oz. of coconut oil if I bought that much Spectrum Organic. I am switching TONIGHT. (I am getting low on my stash.)

I'm using LouAna at the moment, but have a quart of expeller pressed non-organic on the way from TT.

The LouAna is hexane free, but probably does have other solvents or bleaches used in its processing, don't know that for sure, just remember many of the raw virgin coco oil people demonizing it.......Anyway, I can get the LouAna right in my grocery store, so that is a very big advantage to it.
It has no chemical odor or taste that I can detect. Don't know if that counts for anything. But I've had some expeller pressed coconut oil in the past that did have a very off taste.

I read the coconut oil comments at Matt Stone's blog, and several people there use LouAna and like it. I have never tried the Spectrum, having in the past tried several types of spectrum oils that were rancid when opened, so I am not a fan of the brand.

If we like the TT oil as well or better, buying in large quantity will get the price down to within reasonable range of the LA.....but one quart with shipping cost $28.19, an expensive trial. LOL. But when I became unable to stand the taste or smell of VCO, I still had 3 gallons of it......gave away the two unopened ones, and the rest of the opened one is still sitting here, eventually I will toss it.......funny, too because I used VCO for years, never really liked it that much, but suddenly the smell and taste of it made me sick. And, before anyone asks, no, it had not "gone off". The change was in me..........and also at Matt Stone's blog, he wrote the same thing happened to him, and others also commented it happened to them........
sol

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 11:19

Great photo! But who is who? I confess, in my state of vision at the moment, I have extremely little intermediate vision and can't see the pic, well enough to tell which of the two beaming ladies is Debbie?
It is a great pic! You both look SO happy! I CAN tell that, LOL.
sol

Sol,
I am the shorter (and wider) one on the left. :)

jem51

Thu, Aug-11-11, 14:15

Solly, I only have maybe 2 qts VCO that I'm using on my skin for healing wounds and such.

I was able to buy Aunt Patty's organic locally for $7 then the following week it was $13 so I figured they made an error in pricing when I bought it. It's flavorless....nothing off.

Anyway, being that you're in WY, you might compare price/shipping w mountainroseherbs.
Don't know where TT comes from and haven't compared since I live 60 miles from Eugene and can pick it up.

I don't use huge amts of CO so don't know if I'll be making a large purchase again.....we'll see.
So far no cold sores, though, so uncle Ray may be right about the residue in VCO causing the problem.

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 14:44

Hi everyone,
Amanda pointed out to me the following quote from Ray Peat's article on gelatin, "Gelatin, stress, longevity":

"If a person eats a large serving of meat, it's probably helpful to have 5 or 10 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time, so that the amino acids enter the blood stream in balance."

Since this article was written in 2009 and the one I quoted recommending 20 grams per 8 oz. serving of meat was written in 2006, maybe Ray Peat decided less gelatin was sufficient or perhaps that no one was likely to consume 20 grams in one sitting every time they had muscle meat!

Of course, this quote just says "a large serving", so that is a little vague. Hopefully he does not consider 4 oz. a large serving!

I think I will split the difference, and have more than the one tablespoon I was having (7 grams) but less than the 2.5 tablespoons that made me so hot and sweaty that I thought I was going to explode! (As stated earlier, I think I am still a tad sensitive to it.)

I will say, however, that the night I had the 2.5 tablespoons, I slept soundly and had lots of dreams that I remembered, which is not too often the case. And ironically, I had a dream about Ray Peat! He was running a clinic outside Springfield, MA, in the Agawam area, I believe. And I was working as a clinic aide there. (I did work as a clinic aide for many years so that's not too much of a stretch.) Anyway, when I pulled into the driveway (which actually looked like the driveway and yard of the house I grew up in!), I saw that Ray had decorated all the trees with Chinese dragons that he had fashioned out of Christmas wrapping paper! Nice touch! Then I went inside and two of my friends were there, an elderly woman from the church that I used to attend in CT, and a high school buddy, Jeanne. Oddly enough, they were both there for the same reason, bursitis of the hip! As I was walking the elderly woman down the hall, Ray held her other arm, because she was in a lot of pain. I was comforting the woman, telling her, "Don't worry, this man can fix ANYTHING."

Also oddly, I learned the next day via email that the elderly woman I dreamed about had died a few days ago. Not the first time that things like this have happened with my dreams. I dreamed about a dear friend last month who was at my house for a party and after he left, he came back and wanted to hang out. At that point, my best friend from high school, Donna, joined us and hung out with us. In REAL life, Donna passed away from gall bladder cancer a few years ago. Interestingly, the next day I received an email from the friend I had dreamed about, telling me he had been diagnosed with cancer. (Insert Twilight Zone music here!)

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 15:37

Sol,
I am the shorter (and wider) one on the left. :)

I love the way you both look! I can only wish I could meet you both in person! Your faces look so open and friendly.........

In photos I always tend to look sour, LOL.
sol

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 15:48

[QUOTE=jem51]Solly, I only have maybe 2 qts VCO that I'm using on my skin for healing wounds and such.
QUOTE]

I was going to use what I have left for that purpose, but I can't even stand it for that........the smell of it bothers me that much.
sol

sollyb

Thu, Aug-11-11, 15:54

Hi everyone,

I will say, however, that the night I had the 2.5 tablespoons, I slept soundly and had lots of dreams that I remembered, which is not too often the case.

This is sort of off topic, but I know I have a LONG way to go with balancing brain chemistry, and endocrine systems, because the last thing I want is to remember any dreams I might have........nearly all dreams I have are horrible nightmares, and the rest are just too strange/weird..........if I EVER have pleasant dreams that are enjoyable to remember I'll know I'm getting somewhere, LOL. Til that time, I'm better off not knowing what my mind does when I'm not watching it.
sol

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 16:56

This is sort of off topic, but I know I have a LONG way to go with balancing brain chemistry, and endocrine systems, because the last thing I want is to remember any dreams I might have........nearly all dreams I have are horrible nightmares, and the rest are just too strange/weird..........if I EVER have pleasant dreams that are enjoyable to remember I'll know I'm getting somewhere, LOL. Til that time, I'm better off not knowing what my mind does when I'm not watching it.
sol

Hi Sol,
Well, it may not be THAT off topic, because I think our sleep and dreams do have a lot to do with our brain chemistry, hormones, etc. From what I have read and in my experience, nightmares are often related to an excess of serotonin. And I know you have mentioned you have had experience with other effects of excess serotonin, such as insomnia.

I am currently looking into light therapy after reading Ray Peat's comment that bright light and high altitude both reduce serotonin levels. I am not sure what type of light to get, however. I know he uses 500 watt incandescent light, but that sounds a little scary to me!

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 17:25

From Ray Peat's "Gelatin, Stress, and Longevity":

"When only the muscle meats are eaten, the amino acid balance entering our blood stream is the same as that produced by extreme stress, when cortisol excess causes our muscles to be broken down to provide energy and material for repair. The formation of serotonin is increased by the excess tryptophan in muscle, and serotonin stimulates the formation of more cortisol, while the tryptophan itself, along with the excess muscle-derived cysteine, suppresses the thyroid function.

A generous supply of glycine/gelatin, against a balanced background of amino acids, has a great variety of antistress actions. Glycine is recognized as an “inhibitory” neurotransmitter, and promotes natural sleep. Used as a supplement, it has helped to promote recovery from strokes and seizures, and to improve learning and memory. But in every type of cell, it apparently has the same kind of quieting, protective antistress action. The range of injuries produced by an excess of tryptophan and serotonin seems to be prevented or corrected by a generous supply of glycine. Fibrosis, free radical damage, inflammation, cell death from ATP depletion or calcium overload, mitochondrial damage, diabetes, etc., can be prevented or alleviated by glycine."

So reading this, I see why I slept so much better and had "sweet dreams" the night I consumed 2.5 tablespoons of gelatin with my 7 oz. steak, instead of my usual 1 tablespoon. Clearly my normal 1 tablespoon "dose" is not sufficient for me to balance the amino acids in the steak. The excess tryptophan in the meat increases my serotonin levels, which then stimulates the formation of more cortisol! (Not what I need!) Not to mention, it also suppresses the thyroid!

I am sure this is at least ONE reason why I am up until dawn so often. (Probably whenever I eat steak!) And when I had the 2.5 tablespoons of gelatin with the steak, the antistress action of the gelatin enabled me to get to sleep earlier and sleep more deeply. "The range of injuries produced by an excess of tryptophan and serotonin seems to be prevented or corrected by a generous supply of glycine."

Okay, now I am going to order that collagen hydrolysate after all! (PJ made it sound SO inviting!) :lol: I think I had been focusing on the thyroid suppressing aspects of the muscle meat, but somehow missed the part about the big effect it also has on serotonin and cortisol, which I think are probably my biggest problem.

Scarlet

Thu, Aug-11-11, 19:00

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 19:53

CathyB

Your dream soooooo sounds like the dreams I regularly have. I wonder is there some connection between insomnia/delayed sleep phase disorder and dreaming. My dreams are so vivid and crazy that DF loves when we wake up together so I can tell him about my night's dream. He finds them wildly entertaining. :lol:

I go to bed between 2-3.30 a.m.and get up between 10.30-11.30. Usually 11.

However my night time cortisol was never high and still isn't. My adrenal glands plain don't work really. So I do wonder what other factors there are in delayed sleep phase disorder, beside cortisol. Do you think serotonin is a big factor? What else I wonder.

Hi Scarlet,
Yes, I have read that serotonin definitely plays a big part in insomnia and in vivid dreams and nightmares. I, however, don't usually have vivid dreams or any dreams that I can remember. Interestingly, it was after the big dose of gelatin, which probably reduced my cortisol levels that night. So maybe high sertotonin + low or normal cortisol = vivid dreams and nightmares?

It's sort of a vicious circle if you need bright light to reduce serotonin levels. Since we suffer from delayed sleep phase disorder and never get any morning light, we probably have a buildup of serotonin, which then keeps us awake late, and then we sleep late, and then...well, a vicious circle, as I said.

Have you tried light therapy? I haven't heard of it actually helping anyone's sleep problem, but I am willing to try anything at this point!

Annabel33

Thu, Aug-11-11, 22:58

So no-one's answered the exercise qu I posed earlier... Is anyone here exercising and if so, what are you doing and how much?

jem51

Thu, Aug-11-11, 23:17

I have a little routine but it's while the coffee's brewing. Also a few crunches upon waking.
I walk daily. It's a great stress reliever and gives me some tone and endurance. Plus I have a dog.
Movement is good for me and I rarely stand still.

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-11-11, 23:43

Walking is all I am doing at this point. In the winter, I did some snowshoeing.

amandawald

Fri, Aug-12-11, 05:08

So no-one's answered the exercise qu I posed earlier... Is anyone here exercising and if so, what are you doing and how much?

Here's an answer, for what it's worth!!!

I don't do much exercise, but I don't have a car so I walk and cycle everywhere and it is also quite hilly round here!!!

I used to go to an exercise class - half aerobics, half resistance training for an hour in total - but gave up when my adrenals tanked. I just couldn't hack it any more.

I really really want to start doing strength training again, though...

amanda

BiBa

Fri, Aug-12-11, 05:55

So no-one's answered the exercise qu I posed earlier... Is anyone here exercising and if so, what are you doing and how much?I'm embarrassingly sedentary... have to start strengh training, because I am losing bone mass!!!!!!

sollyb

Fri, Aug-12-11, 11:11

[I]From Ray Peat's "Gelatin, Stress, and Longevity":

[QUOTE]"When only the muscle meats are eaten, the amino acid balance entering our blood stream is the same as that produced by extreme stress, when cortisol excess causes our muscles to be broken down to provide energy and material for repair. [B]The formation of serotonin is increased by the excess tryptophan in muscle, and serotonin stimulates the formation of more cortisol, while the tryptophan itself, along with the excess muscle-derived cysteine, suppresses the thyroid function

I'm still not certain whether reducing cortisol is the right thing for ME to be doing. As I've been increasing my gelatin intake the past several days, I've begun to feel worse, and had to up my dose of exogenous hydrocortisone to compensate.........at least from my notes that is what I currently believe to be happening.......

So I want to ask if anyone here knows which aspect of "Peat Eating" is responsible for the MOST cortisol suppression/reduction?

Last night I had a very bad itching attack, (my post cataract surgery eye was itching horribly, too, and that made me frantic as it is absolutely forbidden to rub the operated eye for 3 weeks) took a bunch of antihistamine, had some half and half and honey, a piece of mexican chocolate, and then, in my desperation, got crazy and ate a small bowl of cheerios with milk and sugar....After an hour, only small improvement..........so finally I took 20 mg of hydrocortisone, and within 15 min to half an hour was absolutely out like a light. That was about 1:15 to 1:30 am I must have finally fallen asleep, and I do not remember getting up at all between then and 7 am....I could have and just was too out of it to remember, but I normally remember when I get up during the night, even when I immediately go back to sleep...

approx 7 am is my normal final wake up time, BUT fasting BG this am was higher....98. It has been running in the high 70s to mid 80s. This is the first fasting over 90 I've had in many many days......unfortunately, the 2 or 3 best nights sleep I had I did not do fastings those mornings, but when I started testing again, as sleep seemed to be deteriorating a bit, fastings were in that mid 80s to high 70s range.......

Today I haven't had any gelatin yet, and may not...........some other complicating factors may be at work here, and or it may be my sensitivity to gelatin, OJ, and dairy may have just overwhelmed the amount of cortisol I've been taking. I thought I had that covered, but I've been increasing those foods, and also having some masa in some form the past several days. Stopping that too. I've got some experimenting to do..........

Also additi while at the computer this morning, My eye fell on notes I'd made from Peat's Glycemia, Startch and Sugar blogtalk radio interview, and this caught my attention: (quote probably paraphrased)
"thyroid or vit A deficiency can appear as adrenal hormone insufficiency or ACTUAL deficiency" (emphasis mine)

sol

BiBa

Fri, Aug-12-11, 12:04

Also additi while at the computer this morning, My eye fell on notes I'd made from Peat's Glycemia, Startch and Sugar blogtalk radio interview, and this caught my attention: (quote probably paraphrased)
"thyroid or vit A deficiency can appear as adrenal hormone insufficiency or ACTUAL deficiency" (emphasis mine)Sol, I have an understanding that Dr. Peat's DIET - and that is a PRO-thyroid diet - is for balancing all these things, whether they are high or low; that's why he advises liver once a week (vit A) and shellfish (lots of nutrients, but also thyroid, because when we eat the WHOLE animal, we are taking thyroid, in a certain way), etc.

However, each one of us may have specific issues, including intolerances (due to the lack of balance...) and specific needs, and then we have to take some supplements, hormones, etc. I don't think there's a different DIET in case you are high or low in hormones. I say that based on the similar advice he gives to everyone with NO particular issues. We just have to go into it more slowly, depending on our particular situation.

I remember Cathy saying she had a certain intolerance to gelatin in the beginning. I did also - I think. Question is: do you react the same way when you take bone broth? Maybe you are intolerant to powdered gelatin only, some people are. Are you thoroughly dissolving your gelatin? That might make a difference too.

Anyway, just expeculating... maybe this is one of those questions someone has to ask him during one of his interviews!

amandawald

Fri, Aug-12-11, 12:44

Hi there,

I thought some of you might be interested in this snippet:

I have seen studies that found diabetics actually have Cushings (which is excess cortisol). Same for women with PCOS, some of them have Cushings. But it's rare per medical training doctors receive so no one tests for it.

I am IR due to steroids (i.e. externally applied excess cortisol) and I have problems now with hypoglycemia. I want to try IF but I literally cannot skip meals--I get raging hypo. I've documented lows of 45 (US measure) at times. Anyone have any ideas on that?

F

It was on this thread:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=432039&page=1&pp=15

Which is called "New Book: Say No To Diabetes" and a discussion thereof. I was maybe a little controversial in that I posted a link to a Peat article - WOOPS???

At any rate, this lady, "Fialka" says her asthma inhaler has made her hypoglycemic and unable to lose weight. I thought this cortisol/"diabetes" (using the inverted commas because Peat always does) connection was interesting.

I also found this:

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/exogenous-adrenal-insufficiency/overview.html

Just thought some of you might be interested in following the discussion.

amanda

sollyb

Fri, Aug-12-11, 13:36

Sol, I have an understanding that Dr. Peat's DIET - and that is a PRO-thyroid diet - is for balancing all these things, whether they are high or low; that's why he advises liver once a week (vit A) and shellfish (lots of nutrients, but also thyroid, because when we eat the WHOLE animal, we are taking thyroid, in a certain way), etc.

Well, absolutely NO shellfish or fish for me..........and I've slacked off on my once or twice a week liver lately, but had some for breakfast wed. I may need to start supplementing vit A again, with E and D and K is how I used to do it...gotta get those vit a co-factors with it or so I've read.

However, each one of us may have specific issues, including intolerances (due to the lack of balance...) and specific needs, and then we have to take some supplements, hormones, etc. I don't think there's a different DIET in case you are high or low in hormones.

Still......he emphasizes in his interviews and articles, over and over and over, that his recommendations are specifically not only to be pro-thyroid but to reduce/suppress stress hormones, including cortisol...........The mention of vit. A/thyroid leading possibly to actual adrenal hormone deficiency is so far the only time I've seen/heard him mention even the possibility that anyone could be low cortisol. Maybe I've just missed it.

Now, I don't want to seem hostile to him or his WOE, and I am certainly following the advice he gave me personally, but this whole near complete emphasis on people with high cortisol seems to mean that it could easily make a low cortisol person a whole lot worse, particularly if they go too fast with the "diet" as I think I have been doing........certainly not his fault, he also says many places to go slowly when introducing foods we have been sensitive or "allergic" to........but even so, I worry about the constant emphasis on high cortisol, and his food recommendations lowering it.

For ME, it will be a matter of finding balance, and raising things VERY slowly, and he told me that in correspondence, telling me to use 1 mcg doses of my T3, when I started back on T3. All this is very tricky for me, very. I have no plans to abandon this way yet. But I do need to back off, and take a much slower work up to it.

For example, a 20 mg dose of hydrocortisone at 1 am would normally have made me very shaky, racy, speedy, and obviously been an overdose at that time of night in particular (20 mg HC is a hefty dose at any time), .........that it didn't cause me any overdose or high cortisol symptoms whatsoever, but instead put me to sleep almost instantly tells me I was very, very low cortisol at the time of that dose. Frankly, I was concerned about that dose, but my instinct that it was the right thing do do seemed to be correct.

I remember Cathy saying she had a certain intolerance to gelatin in the beginning. I did also - I think. Question is: do you react the same way when you take bone broth?

Don't think I react to bone broths, but I am careful to make it only from "retained water only" chicken....which I know is ok for me.

Maybe you are intolerant to powdered gelatin only, some people are. Are you thoroughly dissolving your gelatin? That might make a difference too.

It might.........I had some trouble from beef gelatin, much less but some from the porcine....... Not always dissolving the porcine thoroughly, it doesn't really dissolve in cold liquids like milk or OJ, unless softened and heated in a little water first, and I just don't ever seem to want or be able to take the time and trouble to do that........Collagen hydrosalate is on order and should get here next week.......though it is beef, maybe it will work for me..........it would be a great boon to be able to mix it into cold liquids, and even ice cream maybe. Or maybe it will turn out a huge waste of money if I can't use it.

QUOTE]Anyway, just expeculating... maybe this is one of those questions someone has to ask him during one of his interviews![/QUOTE]

As I experiment on myself, and accumulate my reactions, I do plan to write to him again.........
sol

BiBa

Fri, Aug-12-11, 16:16

As I experiment on myself, and accumulate my reactions, I do plan to write to him again.........Best thing to do ever!

jem51

Sat, Aug-13-11, 10:15

Scarlet

Sat, Aug-13-11, 18:57

As I experiment on myself, and accumulate my reactions, I do plan to write to him again.........
sol[/QUOTE]

I agree. I think this is the reason why I didn't do so well on 'pure' Peat. He is really against cortisol and many of his chief recs focus on lowering it.

Cathy B.

Sat, Aug-13-11, 20:36

Is there a recommended quantity of baking soda for raising CO2?
I see it added to oj in the workoutmaster recipe but where else?
Is there any food that it works better w than others or can you just add a pinch(?) anywhere?

Hi Jem,
Sorry but I don't recall seeing a specific amount of baking soda recommended anywhere. I suppose you could try emailing Dr. Peat and asking him. If you do, feel free to pass on what he says because I am sure other people might like to know, also!

This is all I could find on his website:

"The low carbon dioxide production of hypothyroidism (e.g., Lee and Levine, 1999), and the respiratory alkalosis of estrogen excess, are often overlooked. An adequate supply of calcium, and sometimes supplementation of salt and baking soda, can increase the tissue content of CO2."

He often recommends that people drink carbonated water (seltzer) as well as breathing into a bag 3-4 times per day, doing it for a couple of minutes or until it becomes uncomfortable.

I did the bag breathing thing and drank a lot of seltzer when I started. Interestingly, I was constantly craving seltzer before starting the Peat recommendations and had been for a couple of years. I guess my body knew it needed it badly! But once I started following Peat's recommendations, I soon lost the craving for seltzer, so I guess that was a sign of healing.

Peat says the ideal CO2 lab test result is 30 and when my results were checked in April, 6 months after "Peat eats", my score was 30. Woo hoo! :-) No wonder I don't crave seltzer any more.

Cathy B.

Sat, Aug-13-11, 21:05

Speaking of cortisol (our favorite subject!), for those of you who think you have HIGH cortisol and/or adrenalin and fit the description of a HIGH ANXIETY type (Surely I can't be the ONLY person here who fits that description?), I thought you might find this article interesting. I know I did! It isn't really Peat recommended, so it might be a bit off topic, but since Peat's recommendations still haven't enabled me to get to sleep before 4 A.M. at best, and often 5 or 6 A.M., I am thinking this is worth a try!

Interestingly, after I read a few days ago that dark chocolate can lower cortisol levels, I had some before bed last "night" (5:00 A.M.!). I ended up sleeping for NINE HOURS, which is about 2 more than my norm, and having lots of dreams, which only happens when my cortisol levels come down low enough for me to enter a more relaxed state of sleep. So after THAT experience, I did some more research today and came up with this article.

Source: http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/32/34419/scientists-prove-dark-chocolate-eases-stress.html

The benefits of consuming dark chocolate for its antioxidant properties has been known, but until now dark chocolate was only suspected for easing stress. Now scientists have proven that dark chocolate alters metabolism and lowers stress biomarkers.

Consuming an ounce and a half of dark chocolate is now found to lower stress hormones in a study of highly stressed people, adding to the list of health benefits of cocoa flavinoids.

Dark chocolate can reduce risk of heart disease, relieve pain, lower blood pressure, and protect from skin cancer. The new findings show that daily consumption reduced stress hormones and other stress-related biochemical markers among study volunteers.

The authors write, "The study provides strong evidence that a daily consumption of 40 grams [1.4 ounces] during a period of 2 weeks is sufficient to modify the metabolism of healthy human volunteers."

Chocolate is complex, and rich in a variety of bioactive compounds. "The sheer complexity of a food matrix, such as dark chocolate, may determine a large variety of effects on the metabolism. Studies have indeed demonstrated the potential health implications of dark chocolate constituents, but rarely as a whole product."

The study included 30 stressed individuals who self reported anxiety levels as low or high. Using an approach called nutrimetabonomics, the researchers assessed the metabolic status of the study participants. The scientists used proton nuclear magnetic resonance (1H NMR) spectroscopy and mass spectrometry (MS) to evaluate daily metabolic changes that occurred from consuming 40 grams of dark chocolate daily over a period of two weeks, measuring urine and blood samples.

The participants snacked on dark chocolate mid-morning (20 grams), and as an afternoon snack. After two weeks, metabolic changes that occurred from eating dark chocolate were intensified.

According to the results, "Intriguingly…profiling showed that chocolate-induced metabolic effects were statistically significant only in subjects with inherent high anxiety trait." Dark chocolate lowered levels of catecholamines (adrenaline, noradrenaline, normetanephrine), corticosterone, and the stress hormone cortisol in the study group.

Additional evidence of the benefits of dark chocolate included "a partial normalization of stress-related differences in energy metabolism and gut microbial activities" - an important area of current research. Intestinal bacteria play a significant role in boosting immunity.

Dark chocolate is now shown to lower stress hormones in the body. The findings mean that consuming dark chocolate daily could lead to long-term beneficial health consequences associated with easing stress. Consider adding the tasty treat daily for better health.

http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/pr900607v?cookieSet=1

Time for me to stock up on some dark chocolate. I will try it for 2 weeks and report back! :-) I read that Lindt dark chocolate 85% Excellence bars do not contain soy lecithin, so I may try that. I have a hard time finding the "Enjoy Life" chocolate bars around here. E.L. chocolate chips are easy to come by, but then I have to get out the scale every time I want some. 40 grams is 4 squares of Lindt chocolate.

The irony is that before following Peat, I craved chocolate all the time, and now I don't crave it at all! But I will "force" myself to have it. :lol:
I am psyched to hear it was shown to reduce adrenaline, because since I don't even get remotely sleepy until after 2, after adrenaline peaks, I have a feeling that the adrenaline is as much a problem for me as the cortisol.

Also interesting to note that it had the most impact on the "high anxiety" group. I am SURE I qualify. I come from a LONG line of high anxiety types on both sides of my family and the older I get, the worse it is getting.

sanlee

Sat, Aug-13-11, 21:35

Thanks, Cathy. I think my cortisol rhythym is the problem -- low daytime, high night time -- so I'm gonna try the chocolate at night. It will be such a sacrifice, but for science, I'll do it :-)

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-14-11, 01:52

Well, I continued my experiment tonight (consuming dark chocolate and cocoa to lower stress hormones) and had some cocoa mixed in with some gelatin for my dessert. I had steak for dinner so figured I would kill 2 birds with one stone. It was pretty tasty, a pudding made from cocoa, gelatin, sugar, condensed sweetened milk, heavy cream, and whole milk.

Bed is calling, so that is progress, since I went to bed at 6 A.M. 2 "nights" ago, and 5 A.M. last "night", so 4:00 A.M. is GOOD. But here is the weird thing. About an hour and a half after the dessert, I tried to read something on my iPad and it was a little blurry, almost as if the reading part of my progressive lenses was a little too strong, all of a sudden. I had to take my glasses off to read the article! I thought, "Hmmm...that is weird. I wonder if by any chance the cocoa has done something to my vision?" So I did a quick little Google search, and what do I see? The results of some study that showed that the study participants performed better on some vision tests and on some of the brain function tests after eating dark chocolate, as the authors reported in the June issue of Physiology & Behavior. They attributed their findings to cocoa flavanol’s known ability to increase blood flow to the brain, and they speculate that it might also increase blood flow to the retina of the eye!

Who knew? This dark chocolate and cocoa idea is getting better all the time!

BiBa

Sun, Aug-14-11, 07:11

Dark chocolate can reduce risk of heart disease, relieve pain, lower blood pressure, and protect from skin cancer. The new findings show that daily consumption reduced stress hormones and other stress-related biochemical markers among study volunteers.
(...)
The results of some study that showed that the study participants performed better on some vision tests and on some of the brain function tests after eating dark chocolate, as the authors reported in the June issue of Physiology & Behavior. They attributed their findings to cocoa flavanol’s known ability to increase blood flow to the brain, and they speculate that it might also increase blood flow to the retina of the eye!Cathy, I already LOVEd chocolate... now I love YOU, too! :D

sanlee

Sun, Aug-14-11, 07:49

Hahaha, BiBa! And me, too!!!!

jem51

Sun, Aug-14-11, 16:15

So if the participants ate dark chocolate mid morning and as an afternoon snack, it sounds like it was eaten alone rather than part of a meal.
That might be important, yes?

A little less than 3/4 oz twice daily. That is a small serving. But twice a day for medicinal purposes.....hmmm....I think I can handle it.

85% is too dark for me so I'll go for the 72%. Luckily Peat allows sugar!!

I loved Newmans Own Dark Sweet but haven't seen it for a while.

jem51

Sun, Aug-14-11, 16:37

Notice how fast I jumped on that dark chocolate idea.
That will probably attract some attention.

Actually, I've been eating dark chocolate for many years and it always fit right in.

rightnow

Sun, Aug-14-11, 17:59

When my food was very low carb, I was perfectly happy to live on meat and eggs and some cheese, a few spices.

Now that my food is peat-ish, I am perfectly happy (so far) to live on eggs and OJ morning, and milk and OJ the rest of the time, with occasional small meat/potato.

I still havent' touched the ice cream in the freezer. Or even bothered making any of the optional things that would be yummy. My kid's birthday was yesterday and we had an offplan meal but I've had no desire since to eat anything that isn't pretty much milk.

I guess I'm lucky. I just don't crave anything else. Maybe the super limited food is just something my body likes, who knows.

**

So I got that hydrolyzed collagen (aka HC aka Gelatin that doesn't gel and dissolves in any temp fluid), I reported earlier on taste etc.

I actually appear to be reacting to this as if I am slightly intolerant to it. I'm completely baffled. Why on earth would I be intolerant to something like that??

I'm ignoring it. I clearly need to intake this stuff for other reasons so hopefully the reaction isn't extreme enough to be a big deal, or will reduce instead of worsen with time.

PJ

jem51

Sun, Aug-14-11, 18:28

PJ, milk is the perfect combination of pro/carb/fat. Maybe that's why it is so satisfying.

Nice thing about milk is that you can be stuck out in the middle of nowhere and the tinyest, side of the road store will have milk.

I have never tried anything but regular gelatine and had some tummy issues when adding it to food that it did not dissolve in.
Now that I am using it dissolved only, there are no problems at all.

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-14-11, 18:30

**

So I got that hydrolyzed collagen (aka HC aka Gelatin that doesn't gel and dissolves in any temp fluid), I reported earlier on taste etc.

I actually appear to be reacting to this as if I am slightly intolerant to it. I'm completely baffled. Why on earth would I be intolerant to something like that??

I'm ignoring it. I clearly need to intake this stuff for other reasons so hopefully the reaction isn't extreme enough to be a big deal, or will reduce instead of worsen with time.

PJ

Well, that is not what I want to hear, for your sake OR mine! Having just spent $85 on my order which will be coming next week, and being that I am somewhat intolerant to gelatin, well, as I said, not good news! What type of reaction are you getting, PJ?

When I was having bad allergic reactions to the Great Lakes gelatin, Peat said that some people find the collagen hydrolysate easier to tolerate. So I never even considered that might be an issue.

I am using Knox brand gelatin while I wait for my order of gelatin, and I think I am having a small reaction to that, but nothing like the reaction I got when I first started with Peat eats, when I would get a hot, red face, my heart would race, I would break out in a sweat, etc.

The collagen hydrolysate is made from beef and I assume you have been using Knox, which is made from pork. Maybe you aren't tolerating the beef as well or have to get used to it? Maybe a smaller dose would help you adjust?

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-14-11, 18:44

PJ, I don't have cravings most of the time with Peat eats either. Just FYI, I am not eating the dark chocolate because of cravings. As I said in an earlier post, I always craved chocolate UNTIL I started Peat eats. I am going to try the chocolate to try to reduce my cortisol and adrenalin levels after reading the results of the study I posted about a few posts back.

You are right, Jem, I think the dark chocolate should be eaten alone, as a snack. However, it can lower the blood sugar, because of the leucine, so you should probably not wait TOO long after a meal to have it.

I had some today on an empty stomach and felt very woozy afterward, like I had low blood sugar. So I think next time I will eat it within an hour of a meal.

Of course, later on I was thinking, "Hmm...was it low blood sugar, or is this stuff already lowering my stress hormones and causing me to feel tired and low energy because I am so used to being "wired" with high adrenalin and cortisol levels? Time will tell!

Jem, partly because of Peat's recommendations and partly because I am very sensitive to soy, that really limits my dark chocolate options. With the Lindt, their 70% dark chocolate and lower has soy lecithin. Only their 85% and higher does not contain it. Unfortunately, all of the Newman's Own chocolate bars have soy lecithin in them. Of course, there are some I could order online, but they cost like $6 a bar! Ouch!

rightnow

Sun, Aug-14-11, 19:25

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-14-11, 19:42

It's mild. A slight repeat itching on the front of my shin. (Common reaction symptom for me.) A slight bit of asthma that fades fast.

Generally I have a few 'reaction' symptoms to something:
1. Itching on my shins
2. Itching on my forearms
3. Itching on the tip of my nose
4. Asthma
5. Bloating (inflammation/swelling/water retention)

This is just a tiny bit of #1 and #4. I didn't get that until I was taking at least 20g protein (14g by weight) per day. And I didn't do enough Knox previously to know if that was an issue.

Since neither of these are strong and both seem to fade fast, I'm going to just hope it's something I can adapt to, the way people sometimes can cats or stuff new to them.

PJ

That's interesting. I get the same thing, an itchy rash right below my kneecap on my left shin, and rash and itching on my arms, as well as edema, bloating. Did it just start today? Maybe you picked up some gluten cross contamination at the Outback? Grains always give me the rash and itching, but it can take a day or two for the reaction to "kick in".

It you continue to have problems with the collagen hydrolysate, don't give up the ship. As I said, when I started Peat eats, I couldn't go NEAR gelatin, but after following the recommendations for a couple of months, I was able to tolerate it as I began to heal.

rightnow

Sun, Aug-14-11, 20:16

I would certainly not say I thought CH caused it if the offplan meal was anywhere near that event. No this was end of last week when I hadn't had anything but OJ and Milk and eggs and potatoes and cheese for two weeks, aside from one chuck burger patty a few days before and that's one of my staples previously. It kicked in just as I got it and started taking 2 Tbsp of it a day, the first night. I did also think that I was slightly reacting to the pepperjack cheese but I'd gone without that for a few days (ran out) when this kicked in.

I'm not going to worry about it much at this point I just found it odd. I'll be sure and try to get it to dissolve all the way, in case that makes a difference.

PJ

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-14-11, 20:33

Jennifer32

Mon, Aug-15-11, 08:47

For anyone who has a Trader Joes nearby, they sell a 73% bar with no soy lechitin (only cocoa, butter, sugar) and it really hits the spot. You DEFINITELY will not overeat on it. One or two bites and you are good to go. It is about $3 per bar I believe.

BiBa

Mon, Aug-15-11, 13:39

Generally I have a few 'reaction' symptoms to something:
1. Itching on my shins
2. Itching on my forearms
3. Itching on the tip of my nose
4. Asthma
5. Bloating (inflammation/swelling/water retention)

This is just a tiny bit of #1 and #4. I didn't get that until I was taking at least 20g protein (14g by weight) per day. And I didn't do enough Knox previously to know if that was an issue.PJ, make sure you have the gelatin thoroughly dissolved, because undissolved gelatin may cause bloating. According to Dr. Peat, hydrolysed gelatin is usually better tolerated.

sollyb

Mon, Aug-15-11, 14:03

[QUOTE=Knox, which is made from pork.[/QUOTE]

I had always thought Knox was only beef gelatin, and wanted to know for sure which it is. So I called Knox, and the phone representative checked and said they use both beef AND pork gelatin sources......so any given box or batch could be EITHER all beef, all pork, OR a combination of both. I repeated that back to her and she agreed that was correct.......
sol

sollyb

Mon, Aug-15-11, 14:12

I had always thought Knox was only beef gelatin, and wanted to know for sure which it is. So I called Knox, and the phone representative checked and said they use both beef AND pork gelatin sources......so any given box or batch could be EITHER all beef, all pork, OR a combination of both. I repeated that back to her and she agreed that was correct.......
sol

Should have added that what I was told explains why sometimes I had a problem with it and sometimes not so much, LOL.

sol

Cathy B.

Mon, Aug-15-11, 15:00

Should have added that what I was told explains why sometimes I had a problem with it and sometimes not so much, LOL.

sol

LOL. Likewise. Makes you wonder what ELSE they might throw in there! Can't wait for my Great Lakes order to arrive.

Jennifer32

Mon, Aug-15-11, 15:45

Does anyone know how Peat feels about cooked carrots? I had some this weekend with honey and butter that were to DIE FOR! I know that raw is ideal and cooked carrots may not carry the antifungal medicinal qualities... however are they BAD for you? Turn starchy? Or maybe just neutral? (They are a delicious treat)

Cathy B.

Mon, Aug-15-11, 15:58

rightnow

Tue, Aug-16-11, 19:50

I did the initial (1 of 2) experiments on making masa corn tortillas tonight. I couldn't find my old tortilla press and the texture was not bad but imperfect, and I wanted them a bit thicker anyway, so what I actually ended up with were two irregular 5-6" pancakes ranging from 1/8 to 1/4" in thickness.

Doesn't have a lot of taste. Tastes like corn tortilla lite. The thickness doesn't add anything to the taste, as a result, except a more pronounced desire to drink something immediately.

I realized that the only way I've ever eaten corn tortillas is fried in oil, then drained, so they are a mix of crunchy and soft, for tacos. I do it in coconut oil or palm shortening if I have to do that now (rarely). But I think I'll have to make a couple large enough and thin enough to do that with in order to try it and see how it tastes -- or holds up to ingredients -- on the other side of that process. I have the rest of the dough wrapped in a towel and sitting on the counter, and I intend to try it later, to see if a few hours sitting makes any difference at all.

PJ

Cathy B.

Tue, Aug-16-11, 20:28

I did the initial (1 of 2) experiments on making masa corn tortillas tonight. I couldn't find my old tortilla press and the texture was not bad but imperfect, and I wanted them a bit thicker anyway, so what I actually ended up with were two irregular 5-6" pancakes ranging from 1/8 to 1/4" in thickness.

Doesn't have a lot of taste. Tastes like corn tortilla lite. The thickness doesn't add anything to the taste, as a result, except a more pronounced desire to drink something immediately.

PJ

Yes, if you are using the Maseca brand, I found that to be pretty tasteless. As I said in an earlier post, the Bob's Red Mill masa harina has more flavor and you can order it online. But they still aren't very "corny". Just adding a little bit of cornmeal adds a lot more corn flavor.

GabrielaFr

Wed, Aug-17-11, 01:56

jem51

Wed, Aug-17-11, 09:02

The Carmens Tortilla Factory ore very good. They come in white and yellow. I've only tried the white.

BiBa

Wed, Aug-17-11, 09:03

I asked Peat about my macronutrient ratio. Thought I'd share what he said since this was discussed earlier. :)

It's 80g Protein - 100g Carbs - 40g Fat.

And his reply was:

"I think that's a good ratio. I think 100 grams is o.k. while you are losing weight, and not very active. People vary in their tendency to produce ketones. I think it's best to eliminate some of the stored fat, especially PUFA, but the detoxifying glucuronidation route, rather than by burning them for energy, and some sugar is needed for that route to work well (also thyroid)."Thanks for sharing that, Gabriela! Much easier to have the ratios in grams than in calories!

Checking the meaning of glucuronidation, look at what I found:Glucuronidation, the conversion of chemical compounds to glucuronides, is a method that animals use to assist in the excretion of toxic substances, drugs or other substances that cannot be used as an energy source. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucuronide
Isn't it unbelievable that SUGAR will assist in detox?!! Most detox programs would think this crazy!

jem51

Wed, Aug-17-11, 09:27

Thanks for looking that up.....

I bought the Enjoy Life chocolate chunks for the experiment. They are sweeter than what I'm accustomed to (I think most dark choc chips are 65 ish%).
After I weighed them I measured so I wouldn't need to keep weighing.

I have cocoa in the house but don't know if making a concoction w other ingredients will inhibit the effect and also there may be more of something that messes w BG (protein, more sugar, who knows).
I would like to eat it as plain as possible w/o losing palatability.

When I go to TJ's, I'll get some of those soy free bars.

I went to a wedding Saturday and ate some broccoli salad, greek salad (which I made), and smoke house almonds.
My mind went to the discussion of hyperpalatibility which has been a major topic especially after the Taubes/Guyeret(?).

The smoked almonds were a real stimulant. I could've eaten the whole bowl but just the awareness made me move away.

Still, it is just an example of what too much seasoning/chemical can do.

ThomasSeay

Wed, Aug-17-11, 10:58

Hi, just wanted to briefly introduce myself here. I have been eating according to Ray Peat's guidelines for a couple of months now. I found out about this group on the Ray Peat Facebook page and have been reading through some of the old posts.

In addition to the diet, I am also taking (and experiencing good results) Nutripak deactivated thyroid and about a gram of aspirin/day.

Are people here planning on listening to the KMUD interview of Ray Peat this Friday?

Cathy B.

Wed, Aug-17-11, 12:41

Hi Thomas! Welcome! I am on the Facebook page, too. I use my married name there. Funny, I just asked you about the thyroid supplement on that page and now I can ask you about it here, too! :-)

I am fed up with gaining weight and am ready to try SOMETHING. What do you like about the Nutrikpak? Have you tried other supplements or was this your first? What type of positive effects have you noticed? Any negative ones?

Thanks for the reminder about the interview on Friday!

Cathy

ThomasSeay

Wed, Aug-17-11, 14:31

Cathy,

Hi. I tried armour thyroid some time back and just felt like death on it, even though I was taking a very small amount. I don't have a weight issue but after just a couple of weeks on the Nutripak, I have a lot more energy, sleeping better (always an issue for me) and brighter mood. Body temp definitely is going up. BTW, you don't need a prescription for it and can order it online. 90 tabs costs about 15 dollars.

Generally you start off using 1/4 tab 3 x a day (at meal time). When you are ready, you then move up dosage to 1/2 tab at each meal. Then 1 tab per meal. I think, generally people don't go beyond 2 tabs per meal.

I have tried pregnenolone but I was under the impression that it was converting to cortisol. Now that I have been taking thyroid for a couple of weeks, I might try the pregnenolone again and see if my improved metabolism makes a difference.

BiBa

Wed, Aug-17-11, 16:12

80g Protein - 100g Carbs - 40g FatGabriela, would you give us an example of one of your daily menus with these ratios?

rightnow

Wed, Aug-17-11, 17:55

Since I dont' have grass-fed meats as an option, and am limited to a couple eggs a day, I pretty much have to do the rest of it all in milk (2%) and a little gelatin. that was his recommendation actually.

The calories are fine. The protein is good. The carbs are really high though. I'm not dead yet.

One thing is really, overwhelmingly obvious though. Now I realize that 20 years of sleeping mostly 3-6 hours a night, sometimes 0-3, might have some side effects. But lately, my god... I have to sleep. I make sure I get at LEAST 7 hours a night, but it's not enough! I end up falling asleep in the afternoon!

Now, some of this could be that I'm not keeping my blood sugar up by eating every 3 hours. Still, I did not eat every 3 hours before this eating plan by any means, and I didn't have that problem then.

PJ

PS I got the Cynoplus and Cynomel from the mexican pharmacy today. Now I am trying to remember what I read about them in terms of the experimental dosage...

mtaco

Wed, Aug-17-11, 18:47

[QUOTE=GabrielaFr]I asked Peat about my macronutrient ratio. Thought I'd share what he said since this was discussed earlier. :)

It's 80g Protein - 100g Carbs - 40g Fat.

I am sorry that is only 1080 calories. That is not nearly enough even for someone who is extremely sedentary. The ratios might be good, but you probably need to eat more, or risk slowing metabolism, thyroid function and effecting cortisol and other stress hormones. Just my .02.

GabrielaFr

Thu, Aug-18-11, 03:42

~Mtaco: I definitely agree. I come from a background of annorexia, so believe me when I say I know what it means to slow down your metabolism. There was a time in my life where I would gain weight on 600 calories a day.... My metabolism is finally starting to pick up and i can eat a lot more. I also think i eat a bit more calories than 1080. I usually aim for around that number of carbs/protein/fat as a MINIMUM but usually it becomes a bit more during the course of the day anyway. I would say I eat around 1400 normally, but to be honest I don't count calories anymore because it used to drive me nuts. this obsession with calories was a large part of being an annorexic and i refuse to do it now.

I think it is save to say though, based on what Peat said, that everyone should have at least 80-100g protein and 100g or more of carbs per day. I am not so sure about the fat.
I would say the general ratio should be approximately 2:2,5:1 of protein:carbs:fat then. this is also the ratio that seems to work best for me, but you should of course adjust according to your personal needs.

~BiBa I am not sure if i can give you a menu with exactly these numbers but I can tell you what one of my days typically looks like.

Breakfast:
100g Cottage Cheese
10g Gelatin
250g Blueberries or other fruit
1 large cup of coffee with about 150ml milk

Lunch:
250g King Prawns or meat (beef, lamb, venison) or liver
bambooshoots, zucchini, squash, cucumber salad or something like that
200ml Orange Juice

Dinner:
2 eggs or 1 can of smoked oysters
800g of watermelon
(not as bad as it sounds!) ;)

Snacks:
giant afternoon coffee with 150ml Milk (usually soon after lunch)
1 giant grated carrot with 10g of shredded coconut and 10g of gelatin
sometimes: 1 bar of 85% chocolate with 1 piece of fruit (not everyday - only when I feel like it)
also, before bed i usually have a couple of sips of milk or one large tsp of honey

in between meals I drink about 1,5l of carbonated mineral water

Okay, that's about it. I added more fruit/carbs and protein because I work out too. Without the chocolate fruit snack, my ratio should be around 40-45g fat, 140g of carbs and 100g of protein. Of course, it varies but you get the idea. I didn't exactly measure out the percentages. I only asked Peat, so I would have a general idea what he recommends. This menu still needs some fine tuning! :)
oh, and I gained quite a bit of weight after i recovered from annorexia and am now trying to lose a bit of fat again. this time more slowly and in a healthier way so it doesn't completely wreck my body... i just wanted to mention it, because the above is my weightloss menu. to maintain i would have more food for sure! :)

BiBa

Thu, Aug-18-11, 09:16

~BiBa I am not sure if i can give you a menu with exactly these numbers but I can tell you what one of my days typically looks like.Thank you, Gabriela! This pretty much gives me an idea of the whole thing. I am quite sedentary and eat around 1300/1400 calories / day, but my fat ratio is 50%. I am probably putting on weight because ot that, don't know... Nothing to worry a bout, I don't have weight issues, but, anyway, I think there IS something wrong.

Dr. Peat has said a lot of things about macronutrient ratios... let me share what I have found until now, so that we can eventually work this out together:

* 50% of what he eats are fruits;

* "each feeding should contain roughly equal amounts of protein, sugar, and fat, in terms of calories. Without that balance, any of the nutrients can shift metabolism from muscle-building to fat deposition";

When asked to clarify that, he answered: "...sugar should be balanced by protein/fat" - and we interpreted here as 50% of calories should come from sugars; his classic example of a glass of orange juice for each egg, Cathy came to this conclusion (post #359):

So to look at the egg and orange juice example yet again, 7 grams of protein = 28 calories + 7 grams of fat = 63 calories for a total of 91 calories. According to my OJ carton, there are 22 grams of sugar in 8 oz of OJ = 88 calories. So ....looking at it as Andrew suggested, it balances! 91 calories of fat/protein compared to 88 calories of sugar!

* * YOUR ratio, that he said is a good ratio, gives us 320 calories prot, 360 cal fat and 400 cal carbs - this makes roughly 1/3 of each in calories;

* "when the metabolic rate is optimal, most adults who aren’t completely sedentary probably should have around 130 to 150 grams (of protein). If their calorie consumption is around 3000 kcal per day, that’s about 25% of the calories as protein."

* "1000 calories of milk isn't as fattening as 1000 calories of ice cream, meat, or potatoes. It's both the balance of protein, fat, and sugar, and the high calcium content that makes the difference." Which milk is he talking about? He drinks 1% milk - I couldn't find nutrition facts for 1% milk, but 1 cup whole milk has 43.6 cal from carbs, 71.4 from fat and 31.4 from protein and 276 mg of calcium. (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2) I can guess 1% milk has roughly 1/3 of the fat content, something around 24 cal fat per cup; we can "force" it to an aproximate 1:1:1 ratio...

* "fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat".

Too confusing?...... Food for thought, literaly!

jem51

Thu, Aug-18-11, 11:10

The workoutmaster guys talk about balance in one of their vids and how weight gain can happen when any are too high.

Although, they don't use calories in /out theory, they do admit there is such a thing as too much.

Of course, that will be individual.

The milk ratio is interesting. I use whole milk but don't add fat...no CO in coffee, etc.
I'll also buy 2% if it's OV and on sale. I don't like to go below that and prefer whole in coffee.
I do consider milk to be the perfect ratio, regardless, but I never count anything.....just makes life easier.

BiBa

Thu, Aug-18-11, 11:43

I never count anything.....just makes life easier.I didn't either - until I began putting on weight! Not much, really, but the interesting thing is that it happens literally overnight, without any changes in my diet.

sollyb

Thu, Aug-18-11, 12:16

fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat"[/i].

I'm thinking the key there is IN PLACE OF STARCH?

Whatever, I'm sure I do not have my ratio at a proper level for me.

For me, it seems to be the fruit, juice, and sugar that triggered my weight gain.....but I really do not want to go back to low carbing, as I had other problems with that WOE.......struggling to keep in mind the improvements from this way.......more energy, etc, better sleep, but it gets more difficult to keep my focus on those when I am ballooning up again.
sol

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 12:47

Hi Sol,
I think you are on to something with a key point being, "in place of starch". I seem to do okay with potatoes, but if I eat even a crumb (or two) of any starch from grains, the weight just piles on rapidly, in a way it never has before. It makes me wonder if the Peat way of eating doe something to alter the liver function so it reacts more "dramatically" when starches are introduced.

Peat eats practically NO starch, and recommends we eat practically NO starch. I know that of the 25 pounds I have gained since starting with Peat, I gained 3 or 4 eating "pure Peat", but when I have strayed and had some starches, that has resulted in rapid weight gain, causing the additional 20 pound gain. And while I suppose I have only myself to blame for that, it's not like I was eating whole pizzas or something. I was having a small serving of rice or hominy or beans or cornbread. And I fear that it is not realistic for me to think I will NEVER eat those foods, so....this is a dilemma. The other problem is, in addition to the weight gain, these small servings of starches from grains now send my blood sugar into orbit in a way they never did before. Which I am sure is connected to the rapid weight gain.

What to do, what to do! In some ways, this is not new information to me. In my experience, starches can be problematic for some people and sugar can also be trouble for some people, but starch + sugar is pretty much big trouble for LOTS of people!

sollyb

Thu, Aug-18-11, 12:58

Hi Sol,
...... but when I have strayed and had some starches, that has resulted in rapid weight gain, causing the additional 20 pound gain. And while I suppose I have only myself to blame for that, it's not like I was eating whole pizzas or something. I was having a small serving of rice or hominy or beans or cornbread. And I fear that it is not realistic for me to think I will NEVER eat those foods, so....this is a dilemma. The other problem is, in addition to the weight gain, these small servings of starches from grains now send my blood sugar into orbit in a way they never did before. Which I am sure is connected to the rapid weight gain.

It is a big dilemma for me also. I think I'm in denial about how much the small amounts of corn I've been eating are affecting me, but I thought I was okay with it because I'm not seeing the big BG spikes from it anymore.....maybe it is as simple as I can have a couple tortillas a day, OR I can have sugar and fruit, but not both in the same day.......it would be okay if it was just not in the same meal, but my bet would be it is going to be more of a "in the same day" than "in the same meal"

Part of my own dilemma is if I stop all grain, I have to put something in its place, and the possible foods to do that with are all too likely to be much more allergenic to me than the grains are.....At the moment, my cortisol use is probably affecting me also, as I am having edema and bloating again.......I hate that part of it, especially because I feel better with it otherwise.

What to do, what to do! In some ways, this is not new information to me. In my experience, starches can be problematic for some people and sugar can also be trouble for some people, but starch + sugar is pretty much big trouble for LOTS of people!

I didn't see this paragraph at first, but I completely agree with you. As I said above it looks like I personally can have either/or but not both......
I had two tortillas with cheese for my lunch, so had no fruit or extra sugar at lunch save for the lactose in my 8 oz of 2% milk.
sol

jem51

Thu, Aug-18-11, 13:38

I think that may be the key...one or the other.

So if you eat eggs and have oj that would be all you need. OR have potatoes instead of oj.
Either would keep BG from dropping.

Same w the cornbread, beans, etc. Make that your carb and leave off the fruit, potatoes, or sugar for another meal.

I agree that I will probably eat these items from time to time so there needs to be a trade off.

Just a little experiment this morning; I added oj to my eggnog figuring on getting it in and replacing the sugar/honey w more nutrients.
I won't be doing that again. It was not so tasty and I felt my energy crash after.
Somehow I lost the balance ruining the oj and the eggnog all in one shot.

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 16:17

As I think more about it, it actually makes sense. When we give our bodies sugar, it uses that as fuel because it is very easily utilized by the body. When we add some starch, ALL of that starch is going to be converted to fat, because the body is getting all of the energy it needs from the sugar.

I suspect that all those studies that demonize sugar and fructose involved adding those foods to a diet including starch. Yes, once the sugars were added, weight was gained, blood sugar went up, bad things may have happened to the liver from stress, but I doubt it was caused by the sugar. It was probably caused by the combination of the starch with sugar because the body preferred using the sugar instead of the starch (since the starch has to be broken down and converted to glucose) so then the starch was stored as fat and there was a greater burden on the liver.

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 17:42

My concern is that I don't know how well it will work if we just try to completely separate the starches from sugars, meal by meal. I don't understand enough about the process of breaking down starches to glucose and how long it takes, etc. I did try to address this with Ray Peat, but he refused to even "go there" when I asked him if consuming starches while consuming sucrose would exacerbate the problems caused by starches. (I had told him that in my experience, it did!) He responded by saying,

"The starch is harmful, apart from the higher blood glucose. Hominy and traditional tortillas (i.e., nixtamalized corn) are a safer starch. Having more butter, cream, or coconut oil with potato protects against the starch effect. Bamboo shoots, which can be ground and added to meat, cheese, or egg recipes, are a good substitute for the starchier foods. The minerals in potatoes and especially fruits are the biggest factor in regulating blood sugar. The whole grains and beans lack the helpful minerals, and instead contain problematic phosphate and PUFA."

It seems to me that it may be more complicated than just not eating starches at one meal when you have sugar. But I don't know how we can find out if there is a way to make it work or not. Of course, if anyone does this with success, by all means, report back!

But for example, I combined starch and sugar at breakfast with bad results. Okay, no surprise there. I had 2 eggs, OJ, 2 strips of bacon, and instead of my normal fried potato, I had 2 small slices of spelt toast, which were 35 grams of carbs, about the same as my normal potato. Now Peat says that the minerals in potatoes (and fruit) are the biggest factor in regulating blood sugar, and normally I have excellent blood sugar after the breakfast with the potato, even with lots of OJ. But after the breakfast with the OJ and spelt bread, my blood sugar was 223! But even aside from that, when my blood sugar was still high, an hour later, I had some ice cream in order to try to bring it down, because this has always worked well doing non starch Peat eats in the past. But instead, it shot it up 30 more points! That is what mystifies me. Perhaps my body was still using the slow burning spelt bread carbs for fuel at that point? Or the liver still had its "hands" full?

I don't know, but I have a feeling it is more complicated than just not combining starches and sugar at one meal. I know it is for me, but hopefully it can work for some of you! (After all, I am diabetic type 2, for one thing.)
One thing I DO know is the one person who could help us figure this out, we can't ask, because I already tried asking Dr. Peat, and he refuses to contribute in any way, shape, or form to a person consuming starches other than potatoes or very occasionally some masa harina foods.

rightnow

Thu, Aug-18-11, 19:22

I've had an egg or two with OJ, and then just repeat doses of milk as my primary diet this week, as I did the last two (last weekend though I ate offplan with my daughter's birthday). I don't mind it.

I removed ongoing PMS wailing angst about my teenager here. - PJ

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 21:16

Whew, PJ, that is a LOT to deal with. If I get any brilliant ideas, I will post them in your journal. Hopefully some members here who are experienced with dealing with teenagers will have some suggestions for you!

rightnow

Thu, Aug-18-11, 21:20

removed duplicate

sanlee

Thu, Aug-18-11, 22:44

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 22:50

Cathy, you posted something earlier that Peat doesn't eat starch and recommends no starch -- is that correct? Does that mean all he truly recommends is "sugar" for balancing protein/fat? I'm just trying to clarify :-)

Well, he recommends getting most of the "sugar" from fruit or juice, but yes, he rarely eats potatoes or any other starch, as I understand it. He said he occasionally eats corundas (similar to tamales) when he is in Mexico, but apparently he is only there usually in the winter.

sanlee

Thu, Aug-18-11, 23:15

Thanks for clarifying!

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-18-11, 23:23

I should add, I think I said he recommends "practically NO starch." While I believe he eats very little starch, I think that he does consider potatoes as an acceptable part of the diet because of the high mineral content and quality protein. Of course, he still recommends that they be well cooked and served with lots of butter and cream, and balanced with enough protein. I think it just depends on your metabolism and how you respond to them. As a diabetic, I find the extra potassium from the potatoes does a great job of stabilizing my blood sugar. For another person, it might not work so well for them. So I think Peat would say it is up to the individual and how they respond to the potatoes as to how often to consume them.

sanlee

Thu, Aug-18-11, 23:29

The potatoes are definitely good for me! I kind of recall that he agrees that people with thyroid issues need more carbs to convert T4 to T3, and for those of us in that boat, adding some starch for that purpose is a fine idea :-)

Cathy B.

Fri, Aug-19-11, 00:09

I just posted something in my journal, but thought it might be interesting to some of you who read about my dark chocolate experiment, which I started a week ago, after reading about how people who suffered from high anxiety were able to reduce their stress hormone levels after eating dark chocolate for 2 weeks. Most of you know I have a constant battle with my stress hormones and cannot go to sleep until 4 or 5 A.M. and have to eat quite a lot of sugar to keep my blood sugar under control. (Per Ray Peat's instructions.)

So far, it has been pretty much a disaster, because for the past 4 days, my blood sugar has shot up into the 200's and stayed there most of the time, making me feel like absolute crap. (Headache, anxious, feverish and flu-like, tired, achy, etc.) But I MIGHT have solved the mystery of the blood sugar tonight. (Or not. Time will tell.)

Okay, this is what I just posted in my journal:

Whoooooa! I JUST figured out something! DOH!

If this dark chocolate experiment to bring down the stress hormones is actually WORKING, and I AM bringing down my elevated level of cortisol, then whereas before, when the cortisol was always high, sugar would bring the level DOWN and my blood sugar would go DOWN along with it! But NOW, hopefully because the cortisol level has gone down, the sugar I am eating is causing the cortisol levels to RISE in response to the insulin and my blood sugar is going UP!

As I understand it, people with normal levels of cortisol would consume sugar, balanced with protein, and the meal would stimulate the release of insulin(although not as much as if they had eaten starch because the fructose part of the sugar molecule does not stimulate the release of insulin), then the cortisol would rise to send the blood sugar back up. Since sugar suppresses the release of cortisol somewhat, the blood sugar should not rise very high.

Because my cortisol levels were so high, when I needed to bring down my blood sugar, I would have ice cream, and the level would drop by 30 or 40 points. This week, my blood sugar has been going UP by 30 points! Or, I just had some soda and pork rinds. In the past, that would bring my blood sugar DOWN by 20 or 30 points. It just sent it UP 20 points. But, I THINK, this is a GOOD sign that my cortisol levels have significantly dropped! (Thanks to the dark chocolate experiment I have now been on for a week.)

Geez, I didn't think this through very well. Lowering my cortisol levels means I will have to eat a lot less sugar! Darn! :-)

But seriously, since I never even really expected this to work, I didn't even think about the fact that I would have to make some major adjustments to the way I have been eating in the constant effort to bring down my cortisol levels. Peat kept telling me, 'MORE SUGAR!" And it worked, and it was effective at bringing down my blood sugar. But THIS week, as my numbers went UP, and I kept eating MORE sugar to bring them down, they kept going even higher! NOW I think I understand why!

Okay, so now I need to completely refigure all of my menus. Stay tuned!

sanlee

Fri, Aug-19-11, 05:15

Nice job reasoning out a likely explanation. How much dark chocolate are you eating, and when are you eating it?

Cathy B.

Fri, Aug-19-11, 08:26

Nice job reasoning out a likely explanation. How much dark chocolate are you eating, and when are you eating it?

The first few days I was eating about 2 tablespoons of Ghirardelli unsweetened cocoa a day, in the late morning and in the late afternoon, in the form of a chocolate pudding. (Made with gelatin, milk, cream, and sweetened condensed milk.) Not eating that now because the sweetened condensed milk seems a little "suspect" to me, since the company won't respond to my email inquiries asking if there are any additives, such as carrageenan. And without it, the stuff is too rubbery for my liking.

Then I bought some 85% Lindt Excellence bars that are the most nasty, vile, bitter tasting things on the planet. I gagged my way through exactly one square of that before I threw in the towel. Maybe I can melt it down and add it to a recipe.

Now I am eating Callebaut dark chocolate. They sell the baking bars/bricks at my health food store. Not too user friendly (you practically need a saw to break off a piece) but it is tasty and not too expensive. I have been having that twice a day, as per the research study, the same amounts as mentioned in the study - a total of 40 grams, 20 grams in the late morning and 20 grams in the late afternoon.

sollyb

Fri, Aug-19-11, 08:33

I suspect that all those studies that demonize sugar and fructose involved adding those foods to a diet including starch. .

AND they also involved diets very high in PUFA! ........If Peat is even half right it is, I now believe, invalid to feed people on bread, donuts, cake, and pie, and attribute the adverse effects solely to the sugar component while ignoring the grain and PUFA content. But this is common in diet studies.
sol

sanlee

Fri, Aug-19-11, 11:45

Cathy, thanks for the choc info and bar reviews. I bought the Green & Black's organic 85% but haven't tried it yet.

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-19-11, 12:56

I would love some more info on Nutripak! I am currently on T3 (25mcg) per day. I nibble some all day. How is Nutripak (grandular thyroid) any different? I know Many people (I think Ray included) used to swear by Armor until they changed the formula... and now Nutripak is the only "pure" glandular... so maybe this would help? Anyone else on T3? How do you think I would add in or change to Grandular?

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-19-11, 13:26

Originally Posted by Cathy B.
I suspect that all those studies that demonize sugar and fructose involved adding those foods to a diet including starch. .

WOW! Well said!

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-19-11, 13:28

Sol said:

AND they also involved diets very high in PUFA! ........If Peat is even half right it is, I now believe, invalid to feed people on bread, donuts, cake, and pie, and attribute the adverse effects solely to the sugar component while ignoring the grain and PUFA content. But this is common in diet studies.

Right on. This is sooo true. I also feel this is true when it comes to children and hyperactivity! People say they are "sugared" up! But this has more to do with the starches, and dyes in the crappy food then sugar. You should see my kids after a bowl of ice cream... sometimes this is a bedtime snack and they are actually quite happy and mellow after!

simplydeli

Fri, Aug-19-11, 13:35

hi all,

i havent gotten any replies on my question about cortisol, how is it tested, etc, i know nothing about it, so would apreciate any info. i guess its the time difference between us, as i'm in dubai, i'm 8+ hrs ahead so i'm assuming my posts dont get noticed :( hoping this one catches someones eye... :wave:

i would google it, but i dont know if i can trust any of the information out there anymore, as someone posted before ' its ray peat against the world'..
theres absolutely no-one who holds the same principlea as he does..

i've read the entire thread from the 1st post to the last, took me about a week, and it was very very informative and def useful and funny and fun too.. thanks everyone.

i havent actually started 'peateatin' because i'm trying to source fish gelatine, and get my head around eating sugar. i asked dr. Ray about the fish gelatine, he said its nutritionally the same as beef gelatine.

can someone please tell me how journal posts, and save posts which i might want to revisit

i'm sorry i dont have anything to contribute at the moment, i know this is a very important aspect of this forum, but i'm learning and trying to figure out how to do this for myself and my four kids..

thanks to all who have made helpful interesting contributions, its made assimilating all the info much easier...

tc
sally

simplydeli

Fri, Aug-19-11, 14:06

i'm a pilates instructor and i train about 20 to 30 min daily.. has anyone tried this??
i know ray peat is not in favour of aerobic exercises because of the lactic acid it produces( donno if i said that right??/), so pilates is actually very good because its anaerobic mostly, doesnt let you sweat, doesnt bring the heart rate up either..

i was never able to do traditional cardio workouts because of bad posture that led to severe back injuries every time i did try cardio, so i went ahead and learnt pilates. its been an amazing journey for me. i've lost about 15lbs jus doing beginner /intermediate pilates not more than 30min daily.. some weeks when its real hectic i just manage 3 times..
i thought i'd share this, but more than exercise diet is very crucial, because i feel that even though i'm training, i cant seem to move beyond this point.. still need to lose at least 20lb more

my eating has been really jacked up ever since i can remember. as a kid i didnt drink any milk at all except in tea, ate no meat,beef, fish except chickenn fillet, sometimes eggs, but i lived on white bread, lots and lots of butter and cheese, and tea with milk and sugar.
i was very skinny, never constipated, but i felt weak most of the time. i also suffered with relentless daily migraines from the age of 6 right until i was 16. so i lived off aspirin too..

after i had my 2nd son with 2 previous stillbirths, i picked up a lot of weight, and have been trying to find the eating plan that works. i tried some krazzy diets out there. this one dietician i went to in south africa blamed weight gain on sugar intake and all kinds of fat. so i had to eat lots of low glycemic carbs like brown rice/pasta, veggies, but absolutely no butter, no olive oil, not any kind of fat whatsoever, and no fruit because of the sugar, only chicken fillet, not everyday though.
that was one of the toughest diets i tried, because no sugar and fat takes all the fun out of eating!!

after sampling literally a new diet every 6-8 months for the past 10 years, i feel very positive about 'peateating'. i still have to find ways to overcome my aversion to milk and meat, but i will have to do it if i'm to succeed..

sorry for the rather long post, thanks for reading...

sally

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-19-11, 14:14

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-19-11, 14:15

I am thinking of doing some pilates for core training and balance/flexibility. How does this compare to yoga? The "de-stress" part of yoga really sounds nice.

Chinaski

Fri, Aug-19-11, 14:35

Sally-

Just as a point of reference... I know a woman (family member of mine) who does nutritional coaching and she preaches PEAT. Out of all her clients the ones with thyroid/adrenal/cortisol and adrenaline issues take the longest to imrpove. They don't always lose weight at first since it is essential to improve the thyroid and metabolism to achieve the weight loss. But on the other hand... the women and men she works with that have normal thyroid (or have attained normal thyroids through hard work) are readlly taking off on PEAT's plan. They are losing weight and feeling amazing. So I think the proof is there. You will get healthy and lose wieght. It may jsut take a few (gulp) years. :(

that's fantastic ! Knowing that something you do works for others really make you feel better :) . Did your friend tell you about any particular condition that were corrected besides loosing some weight?

~simplydeli

I think cortisol is kinda hard to evaluate because it's value fluctuates throughout the day. I think I ve read or heard Dr. Peat saying that blood measurment are more precise than saliva, but I'd say you need to see it just like a piece of the whole picture...

sollyb

Fri, Aug-19-11, 15:33

Right on. This is sooo true. I also feel this is true when it comes to children and hyperactivity! People say they are "sugared" up! But this has more to do with the starches, and dyes in the crappy food then sugar. You should see my kids after a bowl of ice cream... sometimes this is a bedtime snack and they are actually quite happy and mellow after!

I respond to Haagen-Dazs in the plain flavors that same way, even a tiny 1/4 cup serving can mellow me right out. it is very calming.......
sol

simplydeli

Fri, Aug-19-11, 16:35

jennifer32

pilates offers an all round holistic experience! the focus is on mobility with stability. in other words we strengthen muscles that need to be, and stretch those that need to be.
as an exercise routine, that is both healthy and very functional in your daily life, pilates is really the way to go, but if you jus want to focus on pure relaxation then yoga is great for that.

i had a yogi as a client once, she had been teaching yoga for many years, and when she had her first session with me, she found it very dificult. she had bad posture, couldnt recruit the correct muscles to execute the exercises correctly, etc even tho this was a basic beginner class.

people are often under the misconception that yoga and pilates are similar, when in fact they're not. yoga focuses mainly on flexibility, whereas pilates focuses on flexibility and strength at the same time. its also very client specific, in that it will help you achieve your goals by dealing with your specific posture, and muscle imbalances. for me this was a great achievement. after always beating myself up for not being able to cardio like all my freinds did, i learnt that i had to train and work to fix the postural problems i have. for someone who could never walk faster than 3miles/hr on the treadmill without damaging her back, i can now do 10 push-ups without any injury. 10 push-ups seems like very little but when they'r don right, they do amazing work for your abs and entire body!!

give it a try, your body will love you for it!! :)

sollyb

Fri, Aug-19-11, 17:22

hi all,

[QUOTE]i havent gotten any replies on my question about cortisol, ...............i guess its the time difference between us, as i'm in dubai, i'm 8+ hrs ahead so i'm assuming my posts dont get noticed

I often read posts that are replies to posts I've NEVER seen........I don't know why, but thought I'd let you know it happens to me.........
maybe people are replying to posts they read in journals or something. I have done that myself.......but it confuses me, because I have NO idea where to look for the original posts the replies pertain to.
sol

simplydeli

Fri, Aug-19-11, 19:11

sollyb,

thanks for letting me kno, i figured my posts went way behind coz you guys are all sleepingg when i'm awake. i stayed up tonight to post hoping i wud get a respons on the cortisol, and some guidelines on how to save posts, or open a journal on the forum..

phew, now i'm hitting the sack... its just past 5am, the suns gonna be out in 30min, lucky today is saturday so its possible to get som sleep now..

ttyl
sally

Cathy B.

Sat, Aug-20-11, 22:37

user310283

Sun, Aug-21-11, 02:17

Hi, simplydeli, I work in Saudi Arabia. Back visiting family in the US but returning to work soon. It is great to see more people in the Middle East getting into Peat.

One of the great things about the Mideast is the profusion of various coconut oil brands available because of the big South Asian and Filipino communities, who cook with it all the time. I am a big fan of Nirmal. Started out with Parachute but didn't like it that much. These are all very refined brands, so no plant material to worry about.

sollyb

Sun, Aug-21-11, 08:58

Well, I got my order of collagen hydrolysate today and gave it a try. I must say, so far I am NOT impressed. I put it in my orange juice with breakfast. First of all, it did not dissolve all that well, although I thought it was supposed to dissolve well in hot OR cold liquids. And secondly, my orange juice tasted like someone had ladled in some beef consomme in it! So much for the "tasteless" description! I am annoyed, having just spent about $85 on this stuff. Also, I believe I may be reacting to it. Something is making me itchy tonight and causing a rash on my arms. (Hey, PJ, are you still reacting to yours?) So much for the idea that it is less reactive.

So now it looks like I will have to use it in hot liquids and pray that it doesn't flavor the coffee the way it did with the juice. I can't taste the real gelatin in the coffee at all so hopefully it will be the same with this stuff. Of course, I have 4 cans of gelatin in my cupboard that work just fine in my coffee, so I really didn't need to blow $85 on c.h. so I can use THAT in my coffee. What a freaking waste of money.

Wow, I will have to try my CH in OJ so far I've mostly dissolved it in coffee and mixed it into ice cream (that was fine).......the first day I tried it, I also got very itchy that night........so I cut back to 1 tsp in my morning coffee, and that was fine..........I'm up to 2 teaspoons now and still no more itching. (But I should add I had a large 2 oz serving of pork rinds as part of my dinner last night and did get itchy right away from that, so perhaps I have to take all sources of gelatin into allergy account).

Mine has no taste or smell at all, I'd say it has less than my regular porcine gelatin.........How much did you put in your OJ?

I don't see a batch number on mine so guess we can't compare that way.
sol

sollyb

Sun, Aug-21-11, 09:03

Could someone please post a direct link? Or at least enough info on the date or topic so I can find it? So far I can't find it on the site.

thanks,
sol

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-21-11, 12:19

Could someone please post a direct link? Or at least enough info on the date or topic so I can find it? So far I can't find it on the site.

thanks,
sol

To hear Ray Peat's recent interview on the subject of MILK, click the link below. Then scroll down to August 19th, 7:00 P.M. to FRIDAY NIGHT TALK. I click on "DOWNLOAD" and can listen to it that way. I couldn't get it to work by clicking "PLAY".

http://kmud.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=83

jem51

Sun, Aug-21-11, 12:52

I just got an order of the GL kosher from vitaminlife (ebay) and am so glad I didn't switch.
Never a reaction or bad taste.

Merpig

Sun, Aug-21-11, 15:22

I would love some more info on Nutripak! I am currently on T3 (25mcg) per day. I nibble some all day. How is Nutripak (grandular thyroid) any different? I know Many people (I think Ray included) used to swear by Armor until they changed the formula... As far as I know the basic issue with the Armour reformulation was the cellulose added to bind the tablets together. People who swallowed the tablets in the normal way found they were not reacting as well anymore as the tablets were passing through their systems without fully dissolving. The solution for most is to dissolve the tablets sublingually rather than merely swallowing. That's what I've done since I began taking Armour back in May. It must be having some affect, since high total cholesterol is a classic symptom of a badly functioning thyroid, and my total cholesterol dropped from 295 to 196 after 6 weeks on Armour.

Merpig

Sun, Aug-21-11, 15:24

I recall a friend of mine asking him about using canned pumpkin (Thanksgiving was approaching) and he said that cooked carrots would provide the same effect (carrot pie?) and would be a less starchy alternative. On the other hand, he is anti-carotene and cooking the carrots increases the carotene "effect" on the body so it probably isn't something he would recommend eating too frequently. Very funny really, since the Atkins diet is very anti-starch. Yet canned pumpkin is an "induction friendly" food, and carrots definitely not! I used to eat canned pumpkin a lot when I was trying to strictly watch my carbs, and there are lots of LC and induction-friendly recipes that use canned pumpkin.

sollyb

Sun, Aug-21-11, 17:58

To hear Ray Peat's recent interview on the subject of MILK, click the link below. Then scroll down to August 19th, 7:00 P.M. to FRIDAY NIGHT TALK. I click on "DOWNLOAD" and can listen to it that way. I couldn't get it to work by clicking "PLAY".

http://kmud.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=83

Thank you! I downloaded it and am listening right now.
sol

sollyb

Sun, Aug-21-11, 18:03

[QUOTE]Wow, I will have to try my CH in OJ so far I've mostly dissolved it in coffee and mixed it into ice cream (that was fine).......nt).

Mine has no taste or smell at all, I'd say it has less than my regular porcine gelatin.........How much did you put in your OJ?

Well, I just tried a teaspoon in a pint of 1% milk and it didn't dissolve as well as it does in hot coffee, and I could taste it a little........
wasn't really bad though, but a tablespoon might be nasty.........LOL, this is definitely a beef product.......for taste, in milk at least, I prefer the porcine, but will probably use the CH instead because of not having to dissolve it in water and heat it before mixing in milk.......I've also mixed the porcine directly into cold milk, but it is pretty gritty.
sol

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-21-11, 18:27

Very funny really, since the Atkins diet is very anti-starch. Yet canned pumpkin is an "induction friendly" food, and carrots definitely not! I used to eat canned pumpkin a lot when I was trying to strictly watch my carbs, and there are lots of LC and induction-friendly recipes that use canned pumpkin.

I am guessing it may have to do with the fiber. Pumpkin has more indigestible fiber than the cooked carrots, and as we know, Ray Peat is NOT a fan of indigestible fiber. He says it is true, indigestible fiber does promote good bacteria growth, but it also promotes BAD bacteria growth and increases serotonin, another Peat "baddie", so that is probably why he tried to steer my friend away from the pumpkin.

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-21-11, 18:52

As far as I know the basic issue with the Armour reformulation was the cellulose added to bind the tablets together. People who swallowed the tablets in the normal way found they were not reacting as well anymore as the tablets were passing through their systems without fully dissolving. The solution for most is to dissolve the tablets sublingually rather than merely swallowing.

So when I saw this post, I thought, "Oh, how timely!" I NEVER take supplements but I just bought some Vitamin B-6 because I don't think I get enough from my diet. They are tablets, but they do contain cellulose gel, and so when I saw this post, I thought, "Oh dear, I don't want these pills to just pass right through me! I will try letting it dissolve sublingually, as Debbie suggests."

Well! All I can say is that I hope your Armour tablets don't taste ANYTHING like this B-6 Vitamin. OH MY GOD. It started fizzing madly the minute it hit my mouth, but it was also the most BITTER, VILE tasting thing I ever encountered. I immediately had to spit it out!

Then I tried dissolving one in orange juice. After a LOT of stirring and poking and prodding, it partially dissolved, so I drank the bitter, nasty OJ and then chewed up the rest of the pill which was HORRIBLE.

So...help me out here, guys! Anyone got any other suggestions for how to get down a tablet with cellulose gel in it so it dissolves. Hey, I know, I can combine it with my beef consomme flavored orange juice. Now that would be a tasty way to start the day. :yum:

jem51

Sun, Aug-21-11, 22:49

Instead of ruining an entire glass of oj or broth, just crush it and throw it over the tongue w a spoonful of something you can swallow w/o chewing.

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-21-11, 23:52

Instead of ruining an entire glass of oj or broth, just crush it and throw it over the tongue w a spoonful of something you can swallow w/o chewing.

Oo, great idea, Jem! I guess they actually make pill crushers, from what I see online. Do you know of a particular brand or type that works best?

Thanks!

jem51

Mon, Aug-22-11, 09:23

I don't know much about pill crushers. You can use two spoons if the pill is not too large.
Otherwise you can just place it on a surface and tap it w something a little heavy/dense...wine bottle, rolling pin, mallet, coffee mug.
If pieces tend to fly wrap it.

Also sometimes the coating on the surface is what stops a pill from dissolving so all you need to do in that case is break it in half.
Give that a try and if if's softer/more crumbly inside that's all you need to do.

Cathy B.

Mon, Aug-22-11, 10:05

That's a great point, Jem. I WILL be cutting it in half and given the way the thing started fizzing like an Alka-Seltzer in my mouth last night, I am sure that once it is cut, it will dissolve inside my gut.

Whew, that's a relief!

simplydeli

Mon, Aug-22-11, 15:23

how do i do a journal???? help please

Cathy B.

Mon, Aug-22-11, 15:30

Hi Sally,
Here is a link that gives you instructions on how to start a journal.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=172775

Jennifer32

Tue, Aug-23-11, 07:58

simplydeli -

Thanks for the info on Pilates. I am not able to get to a gym right now... so I am doing workout videos in the tranquility of my own home (while kids are upstairs sleeping). I bought a Pilates video but I cannot tell if it is any good. Are there any good ones you can reccommend? I was nervous picking one out because there were Pilates for Fat Burning -which sounds nice... but I don't want an aerobic video that will up my cortisol and stress my body. This has to be a pleasant mind/body experience!

Thanks!

Jennifer32

Tue, Aug-23-11, 08:01

Debbie-

Thanks for the info on armour. Do you need a prescription for this one? Or can we get it out of Mexico? I wonder if this is close to Nutripak like lita lee says.

All-

Any other info on Nutripak? I am using 25mcg of T3 (Cynomel) daily... and wondered if I could take the thyroid granular (Nutripak) along with it. Anyone have any thoughts?

sollyb

Tue, Aug-23-11, 10:54

I posted this to my journal but thought I'd post it here too, to see if anyone has any thoughts:

I wonder if what Peat uses when he (rarely) uses non fat dry milk as a recipe ingredient is one of the non-instant dry milks?
Such as this:
http://www.organicvalley.coop/produ...onfat-dry-milk/

Non-instant dry milks are supposed to be dried at low temps, preserving more nutrients and fresh taste, and I see this particular one does not have added vit A and doesn't look like it has any added vit D either........since Peat says those added vitamin mixes are problematic and can be allergens for some people, I'm wondering if this type of dry milk would be good not only in recipes, for added protein and texture, but to drink for someone like me, who can be reactive to liquid milks, even the organic ones......it gets good reviews at amazon for taste for drinking.......

Opinions?

sol

Cathy B.

Tue, Aug-23-11, 14:20

sollyb

Tue, Aug-23-11, 18:37

I don't know what Peat uses for powdered milk. I have wondered about the dried milk powder myself since he says to avoid whey protein powder as it is oxidized and has way too much tryptophan. I mean, I KNOW whey powder would have a lot more tryptophan than powdered milk, but what about the oxidized factor? Would the fact that it is dried at low temps make it less oxidized? I have been afraid to use it. Do you know if he has actually recommended powdered milk to anyone?

I have only seen the powdered milk as an ingredient in his coconut oil "ice cream".....

I'm not saying powdered milk would be a good thing, even the low-temp non-instant versions (though online reviews say when reconstituted it tastes very much like fresh milk) it is just that in my own case, where I react to commercial liquid milks, even though I have found a brand I seem to tolerate better than others, I still can't drink as much milk as I'd like to, and I would like to try avoiding the vit A and vit D additives to see if it makes any difference to my allergy reactions. So I have a particular reason for wanting to try it that will not apply to many people.......FWIW, my allergy reaction is not lactose intolerance, but a true histamine skin allergy reaction to something in the milk (iodine, or something in the vitamin mixes that are added). I can get half and half with no additive vits or gums or stabilizers, and now I can get cottage cheese also without additives, but there is no liquid milk available to me that doesn't have the vitamin pre-mixes added.

When my first trial package of non-instant milk arrives and I try it, I may find it makes no difference to my reactivity....then I will try another brand, then probably give up, LOL. OTOH, it may be just the ticket for me.....I do plan to mix the reconstituted dry milk with some half and half to approximate the fat content of at least 2% milk......maybe even to whole milk level.........maybe it won't give me as much mucous as whole liquid milk........this is all experimental.......
sol

deb34

Thu, Aug-25-11, 12:08

As to balance...........I eat more fat than is strictly in balance with protein and sugar, but when I tried cutting that back, I felt worse, and began to dive into cravings again.......peat has said that the exact balance of ratios will vary with the individual, and it does, with me. I need more fat to sugar than some here use........and I need enough protein that it is sometimes difficult to get enough

Sollyb, I know you made this comment quite a while ago, but what you said about the fat, protein ratios resonate with me. I seem to need a huge amount of fat to feel 'well'. I actually can eat sugar free very easily but the starches knock me off kilter and start carb cravings...

I'm trying slowly trying to incorporate Peat ideas into my LC eating. I have 2-3 tbsp of honey at night(1 hour before bed) to lower my cortisol and put me into REM(repair and fat burning sleep) between 10:30 t0 2:30. After that cortisol gradually rises again so that I wake naturally around 6-7 am. I'm still not sleeping that well every night but am sleeping better more often.

I love the gelatin, I'm using about 3-4 tbsp per day in my hot drinks and I think its been helping with my joint pains and body aches.

I've been eating once piece of fruit(usually apple) in the middle of the afternoon, although I haven't noticed any benefits except I like the taste.

I would like to add the dark chocolate maybe in the afternoon help lower cortisol at night...still thinking on that one. I have to say I've been struggling mentally with the added starch from the potatoes etc and I haven't been having juice or added sucrose at all.

I'm also going to invest in some blackout blinds to maybe improve my sleep as well...

those are just a few of my meadering thoughts...to get me back on track after my vacation. and something else that I enjoyed while on vacation was eating only twice a day. a big protein heavy breakfast and a light salad/protein dinner at night. It felt so natural to eat by that schedule, that I just may adopt it for good. I only gained about 1.5 lb in the entire two weeks I was away and that was with added grains(wheat flour pancakes several times and junk like fake maple syrup).

now I'm working on getting rid of the wheat again and ditching the crap pseudo-foods like syrup. I think the only added sweet will be the honey at night and the fruit in the afternoon.

Glad to see this thread is still going....

deb34

Thu, Aug-25-11, 14:04

How many gram in 1 tablespoon? The answer is 15.

in case anyone is interested i did a gram to tablespoon conversion- see answer above so 20 grams gelatin is 1 tbsp+1 tsp.- Not I think the 2.5 to 3 tbsp some people have tried...

all my measuring spoons have both metric and imperial measures-stamped on the handles, say the same...my tablespoon measure says -15 ml(which is the liquid equivalent of grams)/tbsp.

teaspoon says- 5 ml(or 5 gram)tsp and so on and so on. I grew up in the era here in Canada when we were switching from imperial measure(cups, tablespoons etc) to metric(millilitres,litres etc) so I have always used both interchangably....

FluffyCity

Thu, Aug-25-11, 14:44

I'm really intrigued with Peat, I've been reading all of your messages with great interest. One question I have regarding gelatin. Could you take gelatin capsules instead of powder? I'm having a difficult time finding anything other than Knox in my area!

Cathy B.

Thu, Aug-25-11, 14:54

Hi Deb,
I will just borrow this explanation from Wiki:

wiki.answers.com › Wiki Answers › Categories › Science › Units of Measure

"Grams are a unit of mass (or weight) and a tablespoon is a unit of volume. Therefore it depends entirely on what you are measuring -- it depends on the density ..."

So when Peat recommends "x" grams of gelatin, he is talking about the weight. And for the Great Lakes Gelatin, 1 tablespoon (USA tablespoon) weighs 7 grams.

A tablespoon of water weighs 15 grams. (I just checked in my kitchen!) Probably other liquids might weigh a similar amount. So perhaps the information you saw was referring to liquids.

sollyb

Thu, Aug-25-11, 16:37

[QUOTE]I'm trying slowly trying to incorporate Peat ideas into my LC eating. I have 2-3 tbsp of honey at night(1 hour before bed) to lower my cortisol and put me into REM(repair and fat burning sleep) between 10:30 t0 2:30. After that cortisol gradually rises again so that I wake naturally around 6-7 am. I'm still not sleeping that well every night but am sleeping better more often.

Hi Deb,

I bought the hibernation diet book, and aside from the honey at bedtime recommendations was very disappointed in it, the rest of it was standard SAD, whole grains, pushing the standard cholesterol ideas, etc. No way I want to go back into grains and legumes...Still I'm trying the honey thing, and it does seem to work to help me get to sleep and stay asleep........my only problem with it is I don't like honey very much and eating it off a spoon is quite unpleasant. Same with putting that much in milk, the honey taste is way too strong......this is regular commercial brand honeys.........I ordered some YS honey online as I think I remember being able to tolerate the taste of it better......

As to the rise of cortisol in am, I am not quite sure if you think it should not rise overnight?

I love the gelatin, I'm using about 3-4 tbsp per day in my hot drinks and I think its been helping with my joint pains and body aches.

I'm not totally certain what is doing it, but my knees, once so bad I had to use 2 canes to walk a step, are now fine. Even eating quite a bit of potato again....it might be due to the calcium I'm now getting through eating dairy again for the past several years, and now drinking quite a bit of milk, and the gelatin can't be hurting either, though even taking supplemental cortisol, I sometimes react with itching. I hope I will be able to get up to the amounts you are having.

I've been eating once piece of fruit(usually apple) in the middle of the afternoon, although I haven't noticed any benefits except I like the taste.

Cantaloupe and watermelon for me!

I would like to add the dark chocolate maybe in the afternoon help lower cortisol at night...still thinking on that one. I have to say I've been struggling mentally with the added starch from the potatoes etc and I haven't been having juice or added sucrose at all.

I'm not sure where I will end up with all the sucrose.......I'm eating some chocolate daily though.....but the fruit and juice and potato are still a bit difficult for me, and I tend to overeat gummies and marshmallows, but not the chocolate, which I can't really understand. I used to eat 6 or more pieces of fudge at once, but now 2 is my limit, I just don't want anymore than that...and I can stop at one piece of dark chocolate.....so something is different.

something else that I enjoyed while on vacation was eating only twice a day. a big protein heavy breakfast and a light salad/protein dinner at night. It felt so natural to eat by that schedule, that I just may adopt it for good.

I really feel best with a very heavy protein/fat breakfast, and a fairly heavy lunch and a lighter dinner. If I eat too much protein at dinner I don't get to sleep. I do not eat salad anymore though. it just does not appeal without a mayonnaise based dressing (Hellman's/Best Foods). I've finally weaned myself off that mayo, but at the cost of giving up salad. So far I don't miss salad though.

now I'm working on getting rid of the wheat again

Well, I ate two slices of homemade bread with lots of butter and cinnamon sugar at bedtime along with 14 oz milk last night. Woke up with my knees a bit stiff though not in pain.........I keep fighting the thought that I just can't have wheat. My knees have been SO great though, that this seems suspicious to me.
sol

deb34

Fri, Aug-26-11, 09:05

I bought the hibernation diet book, and aside from the honey at bedtime recommendations was very disappointed in it, the rest of it was standard SAD, whole grains, pushing the standard cholesterol ideas, etc. No way I want to go back into grains and legumes...

yes, I had this book on my shelf for years because I initially was disgusted with the same old, same old SAD diet advice. I basically threw the baby out with the bathwater because I also disregarded the information about the honey and how it works in the liver to promote repair and fat burning. I'm glad to have it as a reference for that information if nothing else.
I really feel best with a very heavy protein/fat breakfast,
I love my heavy breakfast too but I am concerned that I'm not drinking any OJ along with it. I can't face glugging back 30 0z of juice to combat the insulin rise from the protein but I don't know if there is something equivalent--- I wonder if having some honey with my breakfast protein would do the same thing as the OJ? I love honey and I used to love to drizzle some on my bacon, back in the bad old days...maybe I can revive that again, it would have the same fructose/sucrose balance as the OJ right?
I tend to overeat gummies and marshmallows, but not the chocolate, which I can't really understand. I used to eat 6 or more pieces of fudge at once, but now 2 is my limit, I just don't want anymore than that...and I can stop at one piece of dark chocolate.....so something is different.

I've never been a candy eater(don't like candy or marshmallows but used to love milk chocolate) I quite like dark chocolate but because of the intensity of the chocolate, can easily stop at one square.

So, last night before bed I had this combo- 3 TBSP honey;3 ounces cheddar cheese and 4 ounces of milk, I don't know why I did it, seemed like I craved each thing I ate. I dropped off to sleep very quickly and slept pretty deeply considering I have breath-stopping back pain from putting it out of joint sleeping on hotel bed for the last two weeks. I even slept past my usual wakeup time of 6:00 am and had to rush to get out the door for work this am. TOM started this am too, but seems pretty effortless this time around without the crushing fatigue I usually get. I actually feel pretty chipper and alert and no mentrual pains or heaviness..whoo hoo! So, was it the magic combo of honey/cheese/milk? Do I dare try it again tonight? kind of scared to tho because I don't want to start gaining again.

I also caved and ate an english muffin again this morning with my ham/cheese and egg. Why can't i just bypass the darn EM? Had my coffee with 2 Tbsp of gelatin, didn't really notice any funky off-taste so I think I can do that regularly.

BiBa

Fri, Aug-26-11, 09:14

So, was it the magic combo of honey/cheese/milk? Do I dare try it again tonight? kind of scared to tho because I don't want to start gaining again. Dr. Peat recommends a glass of milk with a tablespoon of sugar/honey before bed for relaxation and drop of the undesirable hormones. I usually have a combo of this, like milk and honey, cheese and honey or ice cream. When having milk or ice cream, I add 10 grams of gelatin.

jem51

Fri, Aug-26-11, 09:38

I had oral surgery Tues so am on liquids. Last night I really wanted some solid food and finally realized that I can eat tuna.

The liquid has been good in a way since I have not experienced heartburn or any acidy feeling at all.
The bad part is, I'm eating soup several times a day in 90 degree weather.
I try to make it in advance but usually can't wait because I'm hungry.

The dentist said I could eat normally after a couple days but that causes me pain so I'm just sticking w liquids.
Egg nog is still the usual breakfast and I've stuck w gelled(sp) milk for that and any other blended food.
I've been into banana milk lately w a dash of vanilla....yum.

I'm using honey these days but am still at about a Tbsp. so it is not overwhelming.

deb34

Fri, Aug-26-11, 09:41

When having milk or ice cream, I add 10 grams of gelatin.

thanks, I'll add that too!

Cathy B.

Fri, Aug-26-11, 10:00

I love my heavy breakfast too but I am concerned that I'm not drinking any OJ along with it. I can't face glugging back 30 0z of juice to combat the insulin rise from the protein but I don't know if there is something equivalent--- I wonder if having some honey with my breakfast protein would do the same thing as the OJ? I love honey and I used to love to drizzle some on my bacon, back in the bad old days...maybe I can revive that again, it would have the same fructose/sucrose balance as the OJ right?

Hi Deb,
I think one reason Ray Peat recommends the OJ with the eggs is because eggs are such a powerful stimulator of insulin and he says that potassium is the most powerful regulator of blood sugar. So it is not just the sugar/fructose in the OJ, but the potassium that helps stabilize the blood sugar.

ThomasSeay

Fri, Aug-26-11, 10:53

Debbie-

Any other info on Nutripak? I am using 25mcg of T3 (Cynomel) daily... and wondered if I could take the thyroid granular (Nutripak) along with it. Anyone have any thoughts?

What do you want to know? I am taking about 4-6 nutripak per day. You should start off taking about 1/4 tablet per meal. See how you do on that and push it up to 1/2 tab per meal and so on.

Jennifer32

Fri, Aug-26-11, 12:36

Thanks... do I stay on T3 as well?

sollyb

Fri, Aug-26-11, 12:58

Dr. Peat recommends a glass of milk with a tablespoon of sugar/honey before bed for relaxation and drop of the undesirable hormones. I usually have a combo of this, like milk and honey, cheese and honey or ice cream. When having milk or ice cream, I add 10 grams of gelatin.

In a blogtalk radio interview he also suggested a glass of milk with THREE TABLESPOONS of sugar.........I only tried it once: it was gaggy sweet, and it didn't seem to work any better than 1 or 2 teaspoons sugar.....

Mostly for my sleep inducing snacks I have ice cream, or more often just honey lately, seems to be what is working best for me right now.
sol

sollyb

Fri, Aug-26-11, 13:03

Sollyb, I know you made this comment quite a while ago, but what you said about the fat, protein ratios resonate with me. I seem to need a huge amount of fat to feel 'well'. ...

Deb,
I've been recording my food intake again, and find that when I am not deliberately choosing foods to fit a particular macronutrient ratio, but choosing what I feel like eating from mostly Peat friendly food choices, I seem to be eating at or close to 50% of my calories from fat.........feels pretty good, actually.
sol

Cathy B.

Fri, Aug-26-11, 13:06

BiBa

Fri, Aug-26-11, 14:19

Same here... and I have put on weight! :D The strange thing is that, after the almost overnight gain of weight (not much) the scale do not move , not in any moment of the day, as it is normal to happen. I am not weighting myself all the time, of course... but before peat-eating I would fluctuate 2 pounds from morning to evening measurements. Not anymore... I wonder what is happening to my metabolism...

ThomasSeay

Fri, Aug-26-11, 16:07

Thanks... do I stay on T3 as well?

Jennifer, I am not qualified to say one way or another. I do know some people remain on the T3, taking very small doses multiple times per day. You would do well to consult with Ray Peat though, if you're very concerned about this.

sollyb

Fri, Aug-26-11, 17:45

Same here. When I did my calculations, I kept coming up with fat at 50%. When I cut back on the fat for a couple of weeks, all Hell broke loose - carb cravings, insomnia, skin problems, constipation. I went back to eating the way that feels best for my body, with the higher fat ratio.

Me, too. Everything seemed to go south when I tried cutting back on fat, and I was also increasing sugar/fruit so maybe that is why cravings got out of hand. Cutting fat and increasing sugar/fruit also lowered my daily protein total, so that probably didn't help either.
sol

sollyb

Fri, Aug-26-11, 18:04

Jennifer, I am not qualified to say one way or another. I do know some people remain on the T3, taking very small doses multiple times per day. You would do well to consult with Ray Peat though, if you're very concerned about this.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/thyroid.shtml

In fact, the addition of thyroxine to brain slices suppressed their respiration by 6% during the experiment. Since most T3 is produced from T4 in the liver, not in the brain, I think that experiment had great significance, despite the ignorant interpretation of the author. An excess of thyroxine, in a tissue that doesn't convert it rapidly to T3, has an antithyroid action. (See Goumaz, et al, 1987.) This happens in many women who are given thyroxine; as their dose is increased, their symptoms get worse.

The brain concentrates T3 from the serum, and may have a concentration 6 times higher than the serum (Goumaz, et al., 1987), and it can achieve a higher concentration of T3 than T4. It takes up and concentrates T3, while tending to expel T4. Reverse T3 (rT3) doesn't have much ability to enter the brain, but increased T4 can cause it to be produced in the brain. These observations suggest to me that the blood's T3:T4 ratio would be very "brain favorable" if it approached more closely to the ratio formed in the thyroid gland, and secreted into the blood. Although most synthetic combination thyroid products now use a ratio of four T4 to one T3, many people feel that their memory and thinking are clearer when they take a ratio of about three to one. More active metabolism probably keeps the blood ratio of T3 to T4 relatively high, with the liver consuming T4 at about the same rate that T3 is used.

Since T3 has a short half life, it should be taken frequently. If the liver isn't producing a noticeable amount of T3, it is usually helpful to take a few micorgrams per hour. Since it restores respiration and metabolic efficiency very quickly, it isn't usually necessary to take it every hour or two, but until normal temperature and pulse have been achieved and stabilized, sometimes it's necessary to take it four or more times during the day. T4 acts by being changed to T3, so it tends to accumulate in the body, and on a given dose, usually reaches a steady concentration after about two weeks.

An effective way to use supplements is to take a combination T4-T3 dose, e.g., 40 mcg of T4 and 10 mcg of T3 once a day, and to use a few mcg of T3 at other times in the day. Keeping a 14-day chart of pulse rate and temperature allows you to see whether the dose is producing the desired response. If the figures aren't increasing at all after a few days, the dose can be increased, until a gradual daily increment can be seen, moving toward the goal at the rate of about 1/14 per day

sol

Saraswati

Sat, Aug-27-11, 16:18

Hi everyone,

I have been a lurker for quite some time and have thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts regarding Ray Peat, et al. I have learned so much from all of you! It's actually been life changing. I have battled a hypothyroid condition and weight issues for years, and over the past couple of years developed high blood pressure and high cholesterol. I recently lost 30 pounds on low carb/Paleo, but it did not change the blood pressure/cholesterol much (do think the thyroid is an influence...). My doc wants me to adopt a vegan diet (not a chance...) and pays no attention to my thyroid numbers (way out of whack - but working on it). Anyway, I'm on a journey to better health, in spite of her. I'm currently experimenting with something called the Perfect Health Diet which appears to incorporate some of Peat's principles (PUFA issues, thyroid/adrenal health, etc). With that said, I'm not sure if this is the right thread for me because while Ray Peat seemed to inspire the nutrition group I'm interested in, they have some divergent ideas and I don't want to muddy the waters. But the principles are similar - diet as medicine; achieving hormonal balance; rectifying the mistakes of SAD (standard American diet), etc. I will journal my progress in the event anyone's interested. And I'll continue to lurk. This discussion is so inspiring! S.

Chinaski

Sun, Aug-28-11, 03:40

Does anybody know what brand of DHEA does Dr. Peat recommend, and where can I safely order cynomel and Progest-E ?

sollyb

Sun, Aug-28-11, 09:53

Does anybody know what brand of DHEA does Dr. Peat recommend, and where can I safely order cynomel and Progest-E ?

You can order Kenogen Progest E directly from Dr. Peat/Kenogen.
For simplicity of ordering I get mine from Vitamin Express.
You would have to contact him for what brand of DHEA he likes (if any).
But FWIW, he sent me a link to pure pregnenolone powder sold by Beyond-A-Century.......it is PURE, no additives or fillers whatsoever, and I called the company to double check the website info. Pregnenolone is the first hormone made from cholesterol, then progesterone, then the others.......
It is supposed to be the best way to balance all the steroid hormones.
sol

sollyb

Sun, Aug-28-11, 10:13

I'm currently experimenting with something called the Perfect Health Diet which appears to incorporate some of Peat's principles (PUFA issues, thyroid/adrenal health, etc). With that said, I'm not sure if this is the right thread for me because while Ray Peat seemed to inspire the nutrition group I'm interested in, they have some divergent ideas and I don't want to muddy the waters. But the principles are similar - diet as medicine; achieving hormonal balance; rectifying the mistakes of SAD (standard American diet), etc. I will journal my progress in the event anyone's interested. And I'll continue to lurk. This discussion is so inspiring! S.

I took a look at the PHD, and I gotta say I love it when diets have inconsistent "rules", no seed oils, but nut butters are ok? Ummm, last time I looked, most nuts are pretty high in PUFA, and technically nuts ARE seeds, though not grains.........

Plus the protein recommendations would be inadequate according to Dr. Peat, who thinks 80 to 100 is the minimum even for a smallish inactive person. So the PHD recommendation would not meet Peat's ideas on protein, but the concern I have is if 50 gm protein daily really IS LOW, then this is not a thyroid supportive diet? Peat says that inadequate protein is one of the prime causes of low thyroid function.

I'm just saying, regarding these two points that are primary interests of my own...........that if this PHD doesn't produce the results you want, you might consider going much closer to Ray Peat on these two anyway.........

Lowering of blood pressure is one of the big benefits I have experienced since starting to incorporate Peat's eating ideas......
sol

Chinaski

Sun, Aug-28-11, 12:47

You can order Kenogen Progest E directly from Dr. Peat/Kenogen.
For simplicity of ordering I get mine from Vitamin Express.
You would have to contact him for what brand of DHEA he likes (if any).
But FWIW, he sent me a link to pure pregnenolone powder sold by Beyond-A-Century.......it is PURE, no additives or fillers whatsoever, and I called the company to double check the website info. Pregnenolone is the first hormone made from cholesterol, then progesterone, then the others.......
It is supposed to be the best way to balance all the steroid hormones.
sol

Thank you, that looks very good, they aleso have DHEA powder. Too bad they only ship within US, maybe I'll find the way.
And do you (or anybody) know where to buy Cynomel?

Cathy B.

Sun, Aug-28-11, 13:21

Found this on Lita Lee's website:

"I do not advise the use of DHEA, even though it has an anti-cancer effect if produced in just the right amount in the body. Instead, I recommend the use of its precursor, pregnenolone, which will be converted in-vivo into progesterone and DHEA in just the right amount needed by the body. DHEA is similar to estrogen and is a precursor to both estrogen and testosterone. The peak output of DHEA is 12-15 mg at age 30, which decreases with age. Most people take far in excess of this, as much as 100 mg daily. Peat says that DHEA can convert to estrogen or testosterone if taken when there is a deficiency of thyroid and/or progesterone. Therefore, taking more than 12 mg of DHEA daily and especially taking it without pregnenolone can actually promote tumor growth. Peat recommends no more than 2-3 mg max and he stopped selling even this because he thinks pregnenolone is the safe source of DHEA."

I would steer clear of DHEA and just use the pregnenolone to obtain the benefits of DHEA.

Chinaski

Sun, Aug-28-11, 13:30

Jennifer32

Mon, Aug-29-11, 07:33

I get my cynomel from Mexico

(www.MyMexicanDrigstore.org)

Jennifer32

Mon, Aug-29-11, 07:34

Also (re:cynomel) It takes about 30 days to get to me from the day I order. So you want to make sure you order a decent supply and then reorder when you have at least 30days left.

ThomasSeay

Mon, Aug-29-11, 10:40

I intend to apply it topicaly, not orally, so that probably makes difference. And Dr. Peat recommends it mixed with prog and T3 for hair loss (and also pregnenelone).

I had a consultation with Peat once in which he suggested I use DHEA. He did advise taking it in very small amounts. So, Lita Lee's rule should not be considered as an absolute law. If you are going to take DHEA, do a very small amount and pay very close attention to effects.

Cathy B.

Mon, Aug-29-11, 11:12

This comes from Ray Peat's article, "Progesterone, Pregnenolone, and DHEA":

"Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver.

People who have taken an excess of DHEA have been found to have abnormally high estrogen levels, and this can cause the liver to enlarge, and the thymus to shrink.

One study has found that the only hormone abnormality in a groupt of Alzheimers patients' brains was an excess of DHEA. In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production."

Sounds pretty scary to me!

Jennifer32

Mon, Aug-29-11, 11:58

Chinaski

Tue, Aug-30-11, 03:52

I had a consultation with Peat once in which he suggested I use DHEA. He did advise taking it in very small amounts. So, Lita Lee's rule should not be considered as an absolute law. If you are going to take DHEA, do a very small amount and pay very close attention to effects.

in his show about hair he said 25 mg for a week, that's about 3.7 mg a day and I think most of it wont get absorbed to system.

deb34

Tue, Aug-30-11, 09:43

I wanted to post this quickly before I forgot to do it.
Leucine deprivation decreases fat mass by stimulation of lipolysis in white adipose tissue and upregulation of uncoupling protein 1 (UCP1) in brown adipose tissue.

Here's an article about restricting leucine causes belly fat loss...I don't really understand it but doesn't Peat mention somewhere that we should restrict leucine as well?

I also was reading Peat's article about CO2, and have to say I didn't understand it at all. Why is seltzer good and I've read about somebody doing bag breathing and I just don't get it. Can someone give me the 'dummies' version of CO2?

sollyb

Tue, Aug-30-11, 11:12

Sol-

Thanks for the link to the article. As always, Ray is full of wonderful info that I can only HALFWAY understand. LOL! But it sounds like he supports a little T4 and T3 combined. I am not exaclty sure, but I think Nutripak is a natural form of both. I don't feel as good on it as I did when I did Cynomel and Cynoplus combo. I may go back to that.

Just a FWIW comment: which thyroid any person feels best with is very individual.......after having tried 4 different products with T4, including straight T4, I am confident to say I can't tolerate anything with T4......I got allergic skin reactions to all of them. One was a pure dessicated thyroid gland, with only two inactive ingreds, so I feel confident also that I was not just reacting to additives. I do best with a straight T3 product, and further, I do much better with Peat's tiny doses several times a day.
sol

Chinaski

Tue, Aug-30-11, 13:53

Here's an article about restricting leucine causes belly fat loss...I don't really understand it but doesn't Peat mention somewhere that we should restrict leucine as well?

He only says leucine should be balanced with sugars

GabrielaFr

Wed, Aug-31-11, 02:15

interesting. i just read an article about leucine helping with diabetes:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110622224508.htm

Saraswati

Thu, Sep-01-11, 05:28

[QUOTE=sollyb]I took a look at the PHD, and I gotta say I love it when diets have inconsistent "rules", no seed oils, but nut butters are ok? Ummm, last time I looked, most nuts are pretty high in PUFA, and technically nuts ARE seeds, though not grains.........

Plus the protein recommendations would be inadequate according to Dr. Peat, who thinks 80 to 100 is the minimum even for a smallish inactive person. So the PHD recommendation would not meet Peat's ideas on protein, but the concern I have is if 50 gm protein daily really IS LOW, then this is not a thyroid supportive diet? Peat says that inadequate protein is one of the prime causes of low thyroid function.

I'm just saying, regarding these two points that are primary interests of my own...........that if this PHD doesn't produce the results you want, you might consider going much closer to Ray Peat on these two anyway.........

Lowering of blood pressure is one of the big benefits I have experienced since starting to incorporate Peat's eating ideas......
sol[

Hi Sol

Yea, it's a work in progress. (Sorry for not answering sooner - just saw this...). There is flexibility in the numbers depending on one's physical condition - up to 400 cals (aprox 100 g) of carbs and up to 600 cals in protein. I also just started Cytomel supplement to my levothyroxine, so waiting to see what that does. So far, not much change in blood pressure and slight increase in weight. I respect Peat's work, just unclear how to implement it consistently. PHD was the closest I could find. I agree about the protein and eat more than PHD suggests, including gelatin. Anyway, I'm going to continue to try to incorporate more of Peat's principles and see what happens (and see how far it strays from PHD!) S.

sollyb

Thu, Sep-01-11, 09:13

[QUOTE=Saraswati
Hi Sol
There is flexibility in the numbers depending on one's physical condition - up to 400 cals (aprox 100 g) of carbs and up to 600 cals in protein. I also just started Cytomel supplement to my levothyroxine, so waiting to see what that does. So far, not much change in blood pressure and slight increase in weight. I respect Peat's work, just unclear how to implement it consistently. PHD was the closest I could find. I agree about the protein and eat more than PHD suggests, including gelatin. Anyway, I'm going to continue to try to incorporate more of Peat's principles and see what happens (and see how far it strays from PHD!) S.[/QUOTE]

I didn't see that the PHD allowed for up to 150 g of protein.....but then I haven't researched it in detail.........I'll be interested to see how you get on with it, and how far it does vary from Peat's ideas. Peat has few hard and fast rules, and apparently believes everyone must vary things to fit themselves while staying within what he sees as the best way to eat. Makes it difficult for me at least........but then I've had to modify every WOE I've ever tried, because of my allergies, so I guess it isn't that much different for me personally to not be able to follow a set diet, as I never could do that.
sol

deb34

Thu, Sep-01-11, 11:40

Does RP support the idea of eating according to your blood type? He has a background in biology and physiology, is he a molecular biologist does anyone know?

I have to admit that I find the concept intriguing...will probably borrow "Eat right 4 Your Type" - Peter D'adamo to see what this is all about and to see how it lines up with what I understand from reading RP's articles.

This Finnish study looks interesting (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020113) -
Secretor Genotype (FUT2 gene) Is Strongly Associated with the Composition of Bifidobacteria in the Human Intestine

Abstract Top (http://forum.lowcarber.org/newreply.php#top)

Intestinal microbiota plays an important role in human health, and its composition is determined by several factors, such as diet and host genotype. However, thus far it has remained unknown which host genes are determinants for the microbiota composition. We studied the diversity and abundance of dominant bacteria and bifidobacteria from the faecal samples of 71 healthy individuals. In this cohort, 14 were non-secretor individuals and the remainders were secretors. The secretor status is defined by the expression of the ABH and Lewis histo-blood group antigens in the intestinal mucus and other secretions. It is determined by fucosyltransferase 2 enzyme, encoded by the FUT2 gene. Non-functional enzyme resulting from a nonsense mutation in the FUT2 gene leads to the non-secretor phenotype. PCR-DGGE and qPCR methods were applied for the intestinal microbiota analysis. Principal component analysis of bifidobacterial DGGE profiles showed that the samples of non-secretor individuals formed a separate cluster within the secretor samples. Moreover, bifidobacterial diversity (p<0.0001), richness (p<0.0003), and abundance (p<0.05) were significantly reduced in the samples from the non-secretor individuals as compared with those from the secretor individuals. The non-secretor individuals lacked, or were rarely colonized by, several genotypes related to B. bifidum, B. adolescentis and B. catenulatum/pseudocatenulatum. In contrast to bifidobacteria, several bacterial genotypes were more common and the richness (p<0.04) of dominant bacteria as detected by PCR-DGGE was higher in the non-secretor individuals than in the secretor individuals. We showed that the diversity and composition of the human bifidobacterial population is strongly associated with the histo-blood group ABH secretor/non-secretor status, which consequently appears to be one of the host genetic determinants for the composition of the intestinal microbiota. This association can be explained by the difference between the secretor and non-secretor individuals in their expression of ABH and Lewis glycan epitopes in the mucosa.

ThomasSeay

Thu, Sep-01-11, 11:53

Does RP support the idea of eating according to your blood type?

[/size][/b]

No real science behind the blood type diet. I tried that diet back in the mid/late 90s when it was popular. Interestingly, the Type O people did well. I am a type O and thanks to the recommendations, I added back meat to my diet (I ate very little meat, using mostly fish for my protein). I think that was true of a lot of people (that is vegetarians or semi-vegetarians who added meat back to their diets). However, the people who were Type A typically did poorly on the recommendations. Type As were advised to eat a quasi-vegetarian diet. ( I know all of this because D'Adamo had a forum at the time organized according to blood type. He closed it down (for a while anyway) when I and other critics became too loud. I can become a bit of a troll when I encounter dogmatism and people too in love with a theory :)

I am shocked to see this diet is still around. I think the reason it is still around is not because it is particularly sound but rather like the Paleo diet, it has a nice, aesthetically pleasing story: we are all different (which is true) and therefore should eat according to our blood type (false).

My advice: skip the blood-type diet. It is SOOOOOOOOOOO 1995.

TigerLily1

Fri, Sep-02-11, 12:19

Has anyone tried grass jelly, its seems the most common jelly used in the far east, they drink it in soya milk, or as deserts on top of snow cones.

deeper

Sat, Sep-03-11, 07:16

deeper

Sat, Sep-03-11, 07:56

Chinaski

Mon, Sep-05-11, 03:09

BiBa

Mon, Sep-05-11, 05:45

I was checking the possibilities of having the medications send to Europe, and it seems that it costs almost as much as the drugs. Would anybody here be so kind to accept the delivery and reship it to me? It's probably the best option for me. I would greatly appreciate thatI am not in the US, so I cannot help you, but let me tell you that the difference is not that big. Have you tryed www.vitacost.com (http://www.vitacost.com)? On the other hand, I think you have a wide range of products in Europe, particularly in the UK, no need to buy in the US, I think.

Dresten

Mon, Sep-05-11, 13:29

I've been following more or less The Perfect Health Diet. Now that I've discovered Ray Peat I'm uncertain which way to go. Paul Jaminet consumes a really low amount of protein (50g). When I was doing Lean Gains I would eat 200-300g of protein a day, so looking at 50g is just... well, really. I've been naturally giving myself 75g a day when I realized Peat says 80-100 is a minimum for the thyroid.

The problem is, I don't have hypothyroid, but I do have low free T3 levels (TSH is 1.0-1.5). I've lost too much weight (instead of gaining it), and I pretty much have all the symptoms of hypo, just not gaining weight. Fruit does seem to help me feeling better, I'm just a bit scared with the fructose since it's touted as super in the PHD book.

Plus there's me waking up at 3AM: even when experimenting potatoes and cheese with fruit and honey yesterday (and gelatin) I was waking up at around the same time. My plan of action is to follow somewhat a bastard version of PHD + Peat's guidelines. I'm not going too crazy on the carbs, but I will start eating more fruit, jellies (St. Dalfour) and cheese throughout the day.

I'm a male by the way (I notice most of you women here?). Well, we have thyroid issues as well. Probably what got me here in the first place (low t3) was combining Intermittent Fasting with low carb. I have some levothyroxine that i begged my doc to give me a subscription, but I only took it once (I did feel better that day)... I don't want to take it for the rest of my life, and since I'm not hypo (but have symptoms), I know I can get around it with optimizing my life and diet (starting with proper sleep).

EDIT: If you're in Europe, you can order from Vitacost (shipping is more expensive, delays as well) and iHerb.com (http://www.iherb.com) . I get my stuff from iherb all the time and it gets 9 days to arrive at my doorstep. Vitacost took 1 month and a half. Never again...

To use iherb use code NIV880, you'll get $5 off.

BiBa

Mon, Sep-05-11, 13:47

Peat's plan makes a lot of sense in the long term, however it can cause problems for former low carbers in the short term because low carb diets are very high in PUFAs.

Therefore, when one transitions to Peat from LC, PUFAs are released from the cells. If sugar in the form of glucose or fruit is added at the same time as this PUFA release, it can cause weight problems. So far, four of the low carbers that I know personally, gained weight when they switched to Peat. It usually amounts to 10 to 15% of one's body weight. Personally I gained 4lbs on my first go, then 3lbs on my second go. I switched back to a high starch diet and the weight gain stopped. So it wasn't carb intake.

My current plan is to give it a few months of extremely low PUFA intake before trying the sugar again.

In the meantime, I will continue to eat gelatin and only one serving of low PUFA meat a day. Basically in keeping with other Peat principles, aside from the sugar. My friend arrested her weight gain by eating ala Peat, but avoiding sugar and fruit. After a few months she added the sugar back in and continued to lose.Hi, Scarlet- I have been "rewinding" the thread and came across this post, and would like to ask you to elaborate a little more, if possible.

"...when one transitions to Peat from LC, PUFAs are released from the cells. If sugar in the form of glucose or fruit is added at the same time as this PUFA release, it can cause weight problems." => Is there any physiological explanation to that?

"So far, four of the low carbers that I know personally, gained weight when they switched to Peat. It usually amounts to 10 to 15% of one's body weight. Personally I gained 4lbs on my first go, then 3lbs on my second go. I switched back to a high starch diet and the weight gain stopped. So it wasn't carb intake. => I got confused here, his diet is not a low-carb one.... you were not a low-carber before going Peat?...

"My current plan is to give it a few months of extremely low PUFA intake before trying the sugar again. In the meantime, I will continue to eat gelatin and only one serving of low PUFA meat a day. Basically in keeping with other Peat principles, aside from the sugar." => Would you mind sharing your results?

I have gained 4 pounds on Peateating, but only after a few weeks, 2 months, maybe; after that I haven't put any more weight on.

jem51

Mon, Sep-05-11, 17:50

rightnow

Mon, Sep-05-11, 19:29

I posted in my journal some about my Peat-ish experience the last month.

I did not successfully implement his carrot salad daily, nor the gelatine recommendation daily. I believe I did (for the first time ever) make the protein+calorie recommendations mostly via milk. It did not have the 'strength' effect that eating even less protein in meat does for me though.

I am hybridizing slightly starting tomorrow to help my teen do the LC she wants to, while I try to get some gelatin, minimal pufa, enough but not too many calories, sufficient protein, and stay out of ketosis. Since LC wiped out 70% of the food in my universe and then Peat-ish eating wiped out 90% of the LC food (as I don't have grassfed/freerange/raw stuff here), my options have some limits, or I just have to eat far more PUFA than he'd suggest. My hope is to consume whatever carbs I must (e.g. OJ after she is gone to school so it won't be tempting her and I won't be dropping into K and feeling like crap.

PJ

Dresten

Mon, Sep-05-11, 21:29

Dresten. if you follow Peats suggestions for basic healing, you can build your plan based on what works for you.
Milk, gelatin, fruit, raw carrot, etc.

This is what I've done..... and I seem to have eliminated yogurt except for a few occasions (now I wonder if too much lactic acid was my main problem).

After 1 1/2 months I've added back the occ avocado and actually had some ezekial type bread recently w no problem.
I rarely eat a vegetable, only fruit vegies....I think I'm better for that.

Still don't sleep great but I seem to function well so long as I eat well.

I don't eat a lot of sugar and really only honey in my morning egg nog. The rest is from fruit.

Interesting thing is Peat says eggs cause hypoglycemia, but I have never had that experience....even if I eat them alone.
Maybe the problem is that they do nothing to raise BG so it may continue to drop. I don't know. I do know that eggs do not cause this reaction for me.

Having a meter is a great tool for figuring it all out....and a scale.

Today I woke up at 2AM and got up at 4AM from bed, as I'm writing this post. Dinner yesterday was some goat cheese with honey, fruit, some fish and one or two medium sweet potatoes (with some salt).

Didn't seem to help. My sleep is all screwed up. And I've tried a LOT of stuff: melatonin, relaxing teas, trazodone (sleeping pills), magnesium, meditation, reading, LOTS of carbs/starches. Before going low carb (when I was on wheat) I'd sleep like a baby. My cortisol is probably kicking in at 2AM (when melatonin is higher or should be), I just don't know how to revert back to a regular cortisol pattern for my body (if indeed the issue is the cortisol/stress).

Maybe I'll go back to the PHD and just add a bit of fruit here and there.

BiBa

Tue, Sep-06-11, 05:09

Today I woke up at 2AM and got up at 4AM from bed, as I'm writing this post. Dinner yesterday was some goat cheese with honey, fruit, some fish and one or two medium sweet potatoes (with some salt).

Didn't seem to help. My sleep is all screwed up. Dresten, maybe I am wrong, but this is adrenalin waking you up... try a glass of milk with a tablespoon of sugar or honey or sweet condensed milk before bed (Dr. Peat recommends having this at 9:00pm). If you wake up and cannot fall asleep, try having a little bit of this combo again.

sollyb

Tue, Sep-06-11, 08:31

I have the book, and found it interesting, though a lot of it seemed simply silly to me some of it sounded scientific. Like a lot of what I now believe to be pseudo-science (i.e. the cholesterol theory, vegetable fats are good for you, etc.). It takes me a while to sort through what sounds like science from what IS science. And one can't always tell by whether "real" scientists are the ones doing the sounding, unfortunately. But I agree with Thomas, I seriously doubt, having read some criticisms that there is much, if any, real science behind it.

Anyway, I found I could not even give the blood type diet a good try because too many of the food recommendations for my type (O) are allergens for me.
sol

No real science behind the blood type diet. I tried that diet back in the mid/late 90s when it was popular. Interestingly, the Type O people did well. I am a type O and thanks to the recommendations, I added back meat to my diet (I ate very little meat, using mostly fish for my protein). I think that was true of a lot of people (that is vegetarians or semi-vegetarians who added meat back to their diets). However, the people who were Type A typically did poorly on the recommendations. Type As were advised to eat a quasi-vegetarian diet. ( I know all of this because D'Adamo had a forum at the time organized according to blood type. He closed it down (for a while anyway) when I and other critics became too loud. I can become a bit of a troll when I encounter dogmatism and people too in love with a theory :)

I am shocked to see this diet is still around. I think the reason it is still around is not because it is particularly sound but rather like the Paleo diet, it has a nice, aesthetically pleasing story: we are all different (which is true) and therefore should eat according to our blood type (false).

My advice: skip the blood-type diet. It is SOOOOOOOOOOO 1995.

sollyb

Tue, Sep-06-11, 09:01

Have a listen folks. Exercise and lactic acid aren't all bad.

http://itsrainmakingtime.com/2011/philcampbell/

The only person I personally know who was very heavily into kefir and kefir fermented foods for many years has SERIOUS lung fibrosis, and even though it is only one person, that added to what Peat says about lactic acid, lactic acid foods and fibrosis is enough to scare me away.
sol

sollyb

Tue, Sep-06-11, 09:18

Hi, Scarlet- I have been "rewinding" the thread and came across this post, and would like to ask you to elaborate a little more, if possible.

"...when one transitions to Peat from LC, PUFAs are released from the cells. If sugar in the form of glucose or fruit is added at the same time as this PUFA release, it can cause weight problems." => Is there any physiological explanation to that?

"So far, four of the low carbers that I know personally, gained weight when they switched to Peat. It usually amounts to 10 to 15% of one's body weight. Personally I gained 4lbs on my first go, then 3lbs on my second go. I switched back to a high starch diet and the weight gain stopped. So it wasn't carb intake. => I got confused here, his diet is not a low-carb one.... you were not a low-carber before going Peat?...

"My current plan is to give it a few months of extremely low PUFA intake before trying the sugar again. In the meantime, I will continue to eat gelatin and only one serving of low PUFA meat a day. Basically in keeping with other Peat principles, aside from the sugar." => Would you mind sharing your results?

I have gained 4 pounds on Peateating, but only after a few weeks, 2 months, maybe; after that I haven't put any more weight on.

Biba,
I sure hope Scarlet replies, as I am curious, too. I have cut back on sugar and fruit also, as my own Peat eating weight gain didn't stop at 4 lbs...I went on to gain more, at least 10 lbs, and maybe more (been afraid to check, LOL). Since cutting back the sugar and fruit, and cutting meat servings to 2.5 to 3 oz each (even if having some cheese along with the meat) and also cutting back some on milk, while being careful not to cut fat, and even to increase it when I can, it feels like it is starting to maybe come back off a little. Edema is also down but this may be due to weaning down on hydrocortisone which I have also been able to do. There are SO many confusing variables.
But still a huge stumbling block for me is the whole fruit/sugar thing. I confess to being boggles that Peat says he eats about half his calories as fruit. I can't do that, or at least can't do that yet, and where I live with the fruit available to me so limited, it doesn't seem like it would ever be possible no matter if I could do it or not. As it is, I just can't cut back on protein and fat without feeling like I'm starving, and getting terrible cravings, and obviously adding a lot of fruit and sugar on top of my basic protein and fat was leading to weight gain..........
It is still possible of course that this will all resolve in time, as or if I get rid of stored PUFA and as or if my hormones get balanced, but at present I find I simply am not willing to gain any more weight, and would very much like to lose the 10 lbs I have gained over the past 4 months or so, which my measurements confirm really was actual weight/fat gain, not fat loss with muscle mass gain.
sol

edited to add: I emphasize I have not cut out fruit and sugar, merely cut back! And I am still eating some potato. But I have almost entirely eliminated OJ, and cola with sugar, as I have come back to thinking those are way too many sugar calories for "me".

deb34

Tue, Sep-06-11, 11:21

BlueSojrn

Tue, Sep-06-11, 11:40

Jennifer32

Tue, Sep-06-11, 11:42

To hear Ray Peat's recent interview on the subject of MILK, click the link below. Then scroll down to August 19th, 7:00 P.M. to FRIDAY NIGHT TALK. I click on "DOWNLOAD" and can listen to it that way. I couldn't get it to work by clicking "PLAY".

http://kmud.org/index.php?option=co...apper&Itemid=83

Thanks for posting Cathy B... this was a GOOD ONE!

BiBa

Tue, Sep-06-11, 11:52

I sure hope Scarlet replies, as I am curious, too...Well, in my case I got a few pounds, too, but now the scale shows always the same value, so it seems my body made some kind of "adjustment", and this weight gain is said to be a positve sign that the metabolism is correcting itself.

Contrary to what Scarlet said, I have read in this article (from a Peat coach): http://www.functionalps.com/blog/?p=2539 that...The stress-driven metabolism utilizes adrenaline to fuel lipolisys, the liberation of fats from storage to be used as fuel. As the stress response ceases as the diet and lifestyle is improved and glucose is available to cell, the adrenaline spurred usage of stored fat ceases and fatty acids remain in storage.

This also means that thryoid and metabolism suppression polyunsaturated fatty acids remain in storage which is paramount to improving the metabolic rate and avoiding age-related degeneration. Because stored fats are no longer being used as adrenaline falls, temporary weight gain can occur as a sign of the suppression of the stress response and correction of the metabolism.

Reducing stress substances is key to the clients’ long-term success as these substances depress thyroid function, lower the metabolic rate and use of calories from food, and make weight management difficult when chronically elevated.

Unwinding any dysfunction or correcting the metabolism requires the stress response to be stopped.It is this critical step that jump starts all corrective processes as inflammatory, stress substances are lowered in favor of the production of protective, pro-thyroid substances. As thyroid function and the metabolic rate continues to improve, stored fats will be used at rest without compromising energy levels. This lipolysis is a result of good thyroid health not a stress and adrenaline driven state. The lipolysis encouraged by adrenaline is degenerative, stressful, and anti-thyroid ultimately resulting in negative consequences and weight management frustrations. The opposite holds true when the metabolic rate is high.
Peateating is mostly about avoiding PUFAs and other metabolism supressing substances AS WELL AS eating fruit, milk and gelatin. OJ has a role in providing potassium and other minerals, so I just can't imagine NOT eating these items. I am curious to know the science behind what Scarlet said - I trust she knows what she is saying, because the examples are clear - she mentions people coming form a low-carb diet, my case...

If PUFAs are supposed to remain storaged in the fat cells, the "black hole" here is to understand HOW we are supposed to clean those PUFAs...

Cathy B.

Tue, Sep-06-11, 12:34

If PUFAs are supposed to remain storaged in the fat cells, the "black hole" here is to understand HOW we are supposed to clean those PUFAs...

Hi Biba,
I am not sure I understand your question but it seems to me that the information you posted answers your question?

As thyroid function and the metabolic rate continues to improve, stored fats will be used at rest without compromising energy levels.[/b] This lipolysis is a result of good thyroid health not a stress and adrenaline driven state. The lipolysis encouraged by adrenaline is degenerative, stressful, and anti-thyroid ultimately resulting in negative consequences and weight management frustrations. The opposite holds true when the metabolic rate is high[/I].

Cathy B.

Tue, Sep-06-11, 12:42

When I've forgotten to do my gelatin, I notice that my body feels inflammed and achy, in the muscles and joints. As soon as I consume a couple tbsp of gelatin(in coffee) the achiness and joint pains seem to dissipate again.

Thanks for the reminder, Deb! I have slacked off a little on the gelatin for the past few days, having only one serving a day instead of my usual 2 or 3, and today I noticed my right shoulder and neck were stiff. I slept really soundly last night, which is GOOD, but the down side was I never even rolled over in my sleep which meant I put a lot of stress on my right shoulder and neck. (I also had a bad encounter with a toxic caterpillar on my right shoulder recently, but hopefully it is not related to that!)

In any case, after reading your post, I jumped up and put a tablespoon of the collagen hydrolysate in my coffee. I swear, I started feeling some relief within about 30 minutes! Thanks for reminding me about the amazing properties of gelatin!

Cathy

deb34

Tue, Sep-06-11, 12:45

deb34,

I saw the honey link in your signature, and decided to give local honey a try before bed. It works like magic for me and my husband for better sleep. Everyone I know who has tried it has reported the same thing! And I'm getting slimmer as well. In one week, I lost over an inch from my waist!

I read that Ceylon cinnamon combined with the honey is good for all sorts of things, including arthritis inflammation, and have gravitated to that combo right before bed. I just put them both on a big spoon (1/2 tea cinnamon and 1 Tbls honey) and eat it down. The taste is phenomenal.

I too am keeping with the daily gelatin. I think it's a tremendous supplement.

I wanted to thank you for the honey link! I see you don't have a journal, so decided to thank you here. :D

I'm so glad honey works for others too! Although, I've never gone through honey so fast in my life. I'll be paying $10.00/kg for honey until I can get 20 pounds of fresh honey from my Dad's bees this fall. Extraction starts at the end of September so I can hardly wait!!!

Sorry about not having a journal, but I'd never make any entries so I don't see much point setting one up.

BiBa

Tue, Sep-06-11, 12:53

This lipolysis is a result of good thyroid health not a stress and adrenaline driven state. SURE! What would I do without you, Cathy?!!!!!! :D

deb34

Tue, Sep-06-11, 12:55

Thanks for the reminder, Deb! I have slacked off a little on the gelatin for the past few days, having only one serving a day instead of my usual 2 or 3, and today I noticed my right shoulder and neck were stiff. I slept really soundly last night, which is GOOD, but the down side was I never even rolled over in my sleep which meant I put a lot of stress on my right shoulder and neck. (I also had a bad encounter with a toxic caterpillar on my right shoulder recently, but hopefully it is not related to that!)

In any case, after reading your post, I jumped up and put a tablespoon of the collagen hydrolysate in my coffee. I swear, I started feeling some relief within about 30 minutes! Thanks for reminding me about the amazing properties of gelatin!

Cathy

I'm trying to figure out how to get even more gelatin into my diet. I only have two cups of coffee per day so I need other super quick ways to get more, I'm aiming for 6 TBSP per day but I haven't figured out what else to put it in...my food choices are pretty slim these days 'cause I'm too lazy to want to pre-make anything...has to be grab n go food. Any gelatin ideas that are fast fast fast?

BiBa

Tue, Sep-06-11, 13:18

Any gelatin ideas that are fast fast fast? Ice cream, juices, soups, stews... or just dissolve it in water, as my daughter does.

Saraswati

Tue, Sep-06-11, 13:51

[QUOTE=Dresten]I've been following more or less The Perfect Health Diet. Now that I've discovered Ray Peat I'm uncertain which way to go. Paul Jaminet consumes a really low amount of protein (50g). When I was doing Lean Gains I would eat 200-300g of protein a day, so looking at 50g is just... well, really. I've been naturally giving myself 75g a day when I realized Peat says 80-100 is a minimum for the thyroid.

The problem is, I don't have hypothyroid, but I do have low free T3 levels (TSH is 1.0-1.5). I've lost too much weight (instead of gaining it), and I pretty much have all the symptoms of hypo, just not gaining weight. Fruit does seem to help me feeling better, I'm just a bit scared with the fructose since it's touted as super in the PHD book.

Plus there's me waking up at 3AM: even when experimenting potatoes and cheese with fruit and honey yesterday (and gelatin) I was waking up at around the same time. My plan of action is to follow somewhat a bastard version of PHD + Peat's guidelines. I'm not going too crazy on the carbs, but I will start eating more fruit, jellies (St. Dalfour) and cheese throughout the day.

I'm a male by the way (I notice most of you women here?). Well, we have thyroid issues as well. Probably what got me here in the first place (low t3) was combining Intermittent Fasting with low carb. I have some levothyroxine that i begged my doc to give me a subscription, but I only took it once (I did feel better that day)... I don't want to take it for the rest of my life, and since I'm not hypo (but have symptoms), I know I can get around it with optimizing my life and diet (starting with proper sleep).

Hi

Interestingly, I too have a similar experience as yours - hypothyroid (with elevated t4, depressed t3), recently lost nearly 35 pounds on very LC and IF, started PHD a few weeks ago. I actually really like it (sleeping better and restarted a stall!). Paul J recently posted a piece about low carb/thyroid that you might find interesting. With that said, I'm completely in agreement that low low carb is unhealthy for people with thyroid problem tendencies but Peat's recommendations will have me pile it on faster than a NY minute. Personally, my hypothyroid condition came about long before I went on a low carb diet. If anything, it may have prevented other problems, but given my individual health needs now, low low isn't a great idea anymore. Here's the piece on low carb dangers to the thyroid:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4457

Two other go to resources for me are: Chris Kresser (www.chriskresser.com) and Chris Masterjohn (http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/cholesterol-blog.html). They all have a lot of knowledge and information about thyroid and nutrition. Some of Peat's ideas are in there, though, in the science world, when theories overlap, sometimes something new emerges.

s.

Cathy B.

Tue, Sep-06-11, 13:55

I'm trying to figure out how to get even more gelatin into my diet. I only have two cups of coffee per day so I need other super quick ways to get more, I'm aiming for 6 TBSP per day but I haven't figured out what else to put it in...my food choices are pretty slim these days 'cause I'm too lazy to want to pre-make anything...has to be grab n go food. Any gelatin ideas that are fast fast fast?

I don't know if you are using collagen hydrolysate or gelatin but either way, you could add some to your bedtime "dose" of honey. If using the collagen hydrolysate, you could just add a bit of warm water and stir it into that and then add the honey. Of if using gelatin, let it soak in a little cold water, then warm up the honey and combine with the gelatin. Gelatin helps with sleep, too, so the combination of that with the honey will probably make you sleep like a rock!

deb34

Tue, Sep-06-11, 14:18

Of if using gelatin, let it soak in a little cold water, then warm up the honey and combine with the gelatin. Gelatin helps with sleep, too, so the combination of that with the honey will probably make you sleep like a rock!

I will try this tonight! thank you!

deb34

Tue, Sep-06-11, 14:56

BTW, why does Peat salt his OJ? I don't think I understand...

Annabel33

Tue, Sep-06-11, 18:11

Treating the adrenals afaik. :)

BiBa

Tue, Sep-06-11, 19:59

BTW, why does Peat salt his OJ? I don't think I understand..."Since glucose and salt are used to treat shock (intravenous 7.5% salt solutions are effective), it seems appropriate to use carbohydrate (preferably sugar, rather than starch) and salty foods during the night, to minimize the stress reaction. They lower adrenalin and cortisol, and help to maintain the volume and fluidity of blood." - http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml

Jennifer32

Wed, Sep-07-11, 07:36

Do you think adding salt into the gelatin honey mix would be good?

BiBa

Wed, Sep-07-11, 08:05

Do you think adding salt into the gelatin honey mix would be good?No idea... probably will do no harm, since Lita Lee recommends drinking orange juice with salt added.

Cathy B.

Wed, Sep-07-11, 08:27

Do you think adding salt into the gelatin honey mix would be good?

Yes, I would think so.

Saraswati

Wed, Sep-07-11, 09:35

I didn't see that the PHD allowed for up to 150 g of protein.....but then I haven't researched it in detail.........I'll be interested to see how you get on with it, and how far it does vary from Peat's ideas. Peat has few hard and fast rules, and apparently believes everyone must vary things to fit themselves while staying within what he sees as the best way to eat. Makes it difficult for me at least........but then I've had to modify every WOE I've ever tried, because of my allergies, so I guess it isn't that much different for me personally to not be able to follow a set diet, as I never could do that.
sol

Hi Sol,

I am sorry for my late reply - I check this list rather ramdomly. I replied to another lister recently about carbs and PHD, but not protein. 150 g of protein is entirely appropriate for active folks, though they claim the human body can't metabolize protein over that - turns into ammonia. I'm still experimenting on the proportions, though my protein intake is considerably lower than 150 because i'm not eating a proportionate ratio of carbs. So far, higher carbs seems to lead to weight gain (though i recognize that that isn't sufficient evidence that something is out of balance). but then again, I'm coming out of four months of very low carb, so it may take time for my body to adjust and working on balancing the thyroid.

By the way, I'm assuming that you're familiar with the literature on inflammation, leaky gut syndrom, and allergies? I have a few links to share if you're interested. S

sollyb

Wed, Sep-07-11, 11:24

Hi Sol,

By the way, I'm assuming that you're familiar with the literature on inflammation, leaky gut syndrom, and allergies? I have a few links to share if you're interested. S

Yes, very familiar, been dealing with all of that for umpteen years, and researching it for about as long, intensely for the past 10 or more years.

I would still like the links (PM if you wish) there will most likely be some I have not seen, and I can always learn more, LOL.

Cathy B. just taught me a good lesson on glucose for example, when my brain had gotten stuck into a literal-minded rut, and I overlooked the obvious. (thanks Cathy!).
thanks,
sol

deb34

Thu, Sep-08-11, 07:20

"Since glucose and salt are used to treat shock (intravenous 7.5% salt solutions are effective), it seems appropriate to use carbohydrate (preferably sugar, rather than starch) and salty foods during the night, to minimize the stress reaction. They lower adrenalin and cortisol, and help to maintain the volume and fluidity of blood." - http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml

thanks for finding that reference; I had read that article but obviously that point didn't stick :) So, would a little salt added to my honey and chocolate regimen be of any use to lower cortisol too? or is it better to have the salt during the day with fruit or OJ?

deb34

Thu, Sep-08-11, 07:30

I'm still doing my 2tbsp of honey at night and am sleeping markedly better!

A couple of days ago I added 20 gms(2 squares of 70% chocolate-from a Lindt type bar) since apparently the dark chocolate also reduces cortisol. I have been eating fries and potatoes like no tomorrow lately, I havn't been having any fruit juice and I haven't been eating milk or sugar either.

I've still managed to drop almost 2 pounds since last week, which to me is amazing since I'm eating both honey and chocolate right before bed....go figure.

I have eaten wheat bread several times too, but only once per day when I have. Got to get rid of that!

When I've forgotten to do my gelatin, I notice that my body feels inflammed and achy, in the muscles and joints. As soon as I consume a couple tbsp of gelatin(in coffee) the achiness and joint pains seem to dissipate again.

I have one fruit per day, whatever is on hand in the house, I try to have it with my protein at lunch. Other than that, not much has changed, I'm hoping the honey and chocolate will continue to contribute to better sleep. I *think* I've slept straight through the night several nights because I don't remember getting up to use the bathroom which normally I need to do a couple of times.

I also have been adding Relora- a cortisol reducing supplement to the mix at night-that may be helping as well....

UPDATE: So this week I had to give in and go pants/trouser shopping. I had to admit that my old pants were no longer suitable as being in the crush of standing passengers on the bus the other day, there were so many people crammed together that when other passengers tried to move past to get to the exit doors, several almost took my pants with them. The backpacks and close body contant where too much for my old size and I had to hang onto the waistband so they wouldn't be pulled down while bodies were moving past.:o

So, I donated 7 pairs of pants to charity and had to purchase a whole new pant wardrobe in the next smaller size. Yay Me! I still have only lost those two pounds or so that I mentioned above but I also got a spontaneous compliment from a co-worker who said that I "look quite a bit smaller all over".

I had noticed that the sleeves of my button down shirts weren't so tight and restricting as usual(I have giant batwing arms courtesy of my wonderful grandma :) ). So, I must be doing something right. Last night I slept like a rock for 10 hours and it felt great!

LAwoman75

Thu, Sep-08-11, 07:47

jem51

Thu, Sep-08-11, 08:53

Funny that you sleep well w dark chocolate. I cannot eat it at night unless I want to be up all night.

Now that I've been off yogurt for over a month, I think it may have been problematic.
It was so easy to digest that sometimes, when acidity was really high, I was almost living on it.
I have so much less discomfort now that most of the time I forget about it.
The two times that I've eaten yogurt, it hasn't increased but I cannot imagine going back to high consumption. I never thought I'd give it up but now I don't even want it.

This is not to say that including fermented dairy occasionally is harmful but daily it probably is not so great....and maybe a problem as it was for me.

BiBa

Thu, Sep-08-11, 09:16

...would a little salt added to my honey and chocolate regimen be of any use to lower cortisol too? or is it better to have the salt during the day with fruit or OJ?I think so, since it lowers the stress hormones. As for the added salt, Lita Lee recommends using salt in orange juice, but I really don't know WHY! Do a search on her website, or maybe you could write her - she answered me very quickly when I wrote her some time ago.

deb34

Thu, Sep-08-11, 09:29

deb, so you are still doing 2T of honey at night and now 2 squares of dark chocolate? I bought some 85% Ghiradelli chocolate yesterday after reading this for the sole purpose of sleeping better and I must say that I did. I really LOVE honey but I have to admit that I'm scared of the 16g of sugars in just one Tbsp.

yep, I'm deliberately NOT thinking of the carbs or sugars in it. I'm thinking that 50% of that is the fructose which unlocks the enzymes for glucose to be used as brain fuel during sleep. That in turn allows for the use of stored body fat for body restoration/repair.
I'm also not thinking of the carbs/sugars in the one or two pieces of fruit I eat with my protein at meals now. I think of the glucose/fructose as tools to suppress the post meal insulin surge from the protein(still don't understand this but it seems to be true in my case).

If I think of these things as tools or like medications, I feel pretty guiltless about any carbs they carry. I also like the fact that I can have some fruit with cheese at lunch if I want without feeling like I'm being "bad". I allowed myself to have some chicken with cranberry sauce the other day and it was delicious and didn't seem to do much harm.

I still haven't got the courage to do the milk or the OJ, and I keep forgetting about the carrot but I'm doing ok with the above mentioned things.

ThomasSeay

Thu, Sep-08-11, 11:26

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=4457

Two other go to resources for me are: Chris Kresser (www.chriskresser.com) and Chris Masterjohn (http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/cholesterol-blog.html). They all have a lot of knowledge and information about thyroid and nutrition. Some of Peat's ideas are in there, though, in the science world, when theories overlap, sometimes something new emerges.

s.

That's a very good article by Paul Jaminet. Thanks. I don't understand why people refer to Chris Kresser. He seems to me to be the Kim Kardashian of the diet world. Just as I never understood what Kim Kardashian has done to be famous (she seems to be famous for being famous), I still don't understand the fascination with a guy who is only 1 year out of acupuncture school. Guess it pays to have a nice website.

Scarlet

Sun, Sep-11-11, 19:37

Hi, Scarlet- I have been "rewinding" the thread and came across this post, and would like to ask you to elaborate a little more, if possible.

"...when one transitions to Peat from LC, PUFAs are released from the cells. If sugar in the form of glucose or fruit is added at the same time as this PUFA release, it can cause weight problems." => Is there any physiological explanation to that?

"So far, four of the low carbers that I know personally, gained weight when they switched to Peat. It usually amounts to 10 to 15% of one's body weight. Personally I gained 4lbs on my first go, then 3lbs on my second go. I switched back to a high starch diet and the weight gain stopped. So it wasn't carb intake. => I got confused here, his diet is not a low-carb one.... you were not a low-carber before going Peat?...

"My current plan is to give it a few months of extremely low PUFA intake before trying the sugar again. In the meantime, I will continue to eat gelatin and only one serving of low PUFA meat a day. Basically in keeping with other Peat principles, aside from the sugar." => Would you mind sharing your results?

I have gained 4 pounds on Peateating, but only after a few weeks, 2 months, maybe; after that I haven't put any more weight on.

Hi Biba

Sorry I am only answering this now; I've been out of the loop lately.

Anyway:

1) I haven't found any physiological explanation for weight gain when PUFAs are reduced and sugar is added, but a friend theorised that the two combined together may be the reason for WG.

2) Peat's diet is not low carb. However what I meant was that some people would assert that I gained weight because I increased my carb intake. However my carb intake is the same when it is composed of starch, but I remain weight stable as long as I eat nutritious and gluten free food.

3) I feel good on my high starch diet. Gelatine has sadly done nothing for my delayed sleep phase disorder, but it has improved my nails. Before gelatine, nothing ever worked and they always broke very easily. Since I have started using gelatine, they now grow to an improved length before breaking. This is massive for me as my nails have been extremely weak all my life. I also feel better eating meat only once a day. I can't describe it; it just feels more natural to me. I rarely crave foods (aside from salty foods during TOM- getting low PUFA salty snacks is pretty much impossible) and I feel good. The low PUFA intake has also decreased my mild acne.

4) To be completely honest, Peat's programme packed on the pounds for me like nothing I have ever experienced. I am very content with eating the way I do now - high gluten free starch (rice, GF bread, bananas) and low PUFA.

5) I am on the hunt for a doc to rx me T3. I have Hashimotos and did well on T3 briefly, but I couldn't get a doc to prescribe it for me. I lost weight very easily on it though so am praying that a doc will rx it for me soon.

Saraswati

Mon, Sep-12-11, 04:56

That's a very good article by Paul Jaminet. Thanks. I don't understand why people refer to Chris Kresser. He seems to me to be the Kim Kardashian of the diet world. Just as I never understood what Kim Kardashian has done to be famous (she seems to be famous for being famous), I still don't understand the fascination with a guy who is only 1 year out of acupuncture school. Guess it pays to have a nice website.

I don't know. From what I can see, Chris Kresser seems well informed and has lots of integrity, experience not withstanding. I will say that the PHD diet, so far, is working fab for me, and I have Kresser to thank for pointing me in that direction. Suggesting a healthy way of eating is as un-Kim as one can get, IMO. Just as an aside - I am eating a lower fat version of PHD and exercising portion control. What an eye opener that is. For the first time in who knows how long, I sleep better, more energy, and just feel a greater sense of well being. And, yes, I'm still losing weight. though I'm nearing my goal and worried about maintenance. That'll be the next chapter - how to not gain it all back. Sounds trivial, but the recitivism rate is not good and will require the same, if not more, dietary attention. I think this will be a real test of PHD. S.

BiBa

Mon, Sep-12-11, 06:40

Hi, Scarlet - thanks for replying!
I haven't found any physiological explanation for weight gain when PUFAs are reduced and sugar is added, but a friend theorised that the two combined together may be the reason for WG.Someone has already done this for us... ;) I have read in this article (from a Peat coach): http://www.functionalps.com/blog/?p=2539 that...The stress-driven metabolism utilizes adrenaline to fuel lipolisys, the liberation of fats from storage to be used as fuel. As the stress response ceases as the diet and lifestyle is improved and glucose is available to cell, the adrenaline spurred usage of stored fat ceases and fatty acids remain in storage.

This also means that thryoid and metabolism suppression polyunsaturated fatty acids remain in storage which is paramount to improving the metabolic rate and avoiding age-related degeneration. Because stored fats are no longer being used as adrenaline falls, temporary weight gain can occur as a sign of the suppression of the stress response and correction of the metabolism.

Reducing stress substances is key to the clients’ long-term success as these substances depress thyroid function, lower the metabolic rate and use of calories from food, and make weight management difficult when chronically elevated.

Unwinding any dysfunction or correcting the metabolism requires the stress response to be stopped.It is this critical step that jump starts all corrective processes as inflammatory, stress substances are lowered in favor of the production of protective, pro-thyroid substances. As thyroid function and the metabolic rate continues to improve, stored fats will be used at rest without compromising energy levels. This lipolysis is a result of good thyroid health not a stress and adrenaline driven state. The lipolysis encouraged by adrenaline is degenerative, stressful, and anti-thyroid ultimately resulting in negative consequences and weight management frustrations. The opposite holds true when the metabolic rate is high.
I am on the hunt for a doc to rx me T3. I have Hashimotos and did well on T3 briefly, but I couldn't get a doc to prescribe it for me. I lost weight very easily on it though so am praying that a doc will rx it for me soon. That's right, because, if I understand right, taking Thyroid increases your metabolism rate, hence the weight loss.

BiBa

Tue, Sep-13-11, 13:07

Cathy B.

Tue, Sep-13-11, 13:34

Thanks for the tip! I have been wondering how to use that stuff since I don't like it in cold beverages and I just use the regular gelatin in my hot coffee. I will try your suggestion to thicken sauces with it!

deb34

Thu, Sep-15-11, 08:33

Just thought in sharing a gelatin experience... I was making stew meat in white wine sauce for lunch, and decided to try to use hydrolysed gelatin instead of broth. WOW! It worked wonders, and, despite being hydrolysed, it even thickened the sauce! Will certainly do this more often! ;)

I made chicken stew last night, to eat tonight, and used gelatin in the sauce I made. I also added back the gelatin/broth that came off the pre-cooked chicken from the night before. I'll see tonight if the chicken and sauce have thickened up or not...

Doug78

Sat, Sep-17-11, 07:13

Cathy B.

Sat, Sep-17-11, 09:23

question for the gelatin hydrolysate users: do you feel it has the same effects, if you do experience noticeable effects from using gelatin that is?

I'm struggling with an intestinal disorder at the moment and normally use the porcine gelatin which gives me noticeable relief, Great Lakes accidently sent me a box of the hydrolysate for my latest order and I'm note quite sure it has the same effect on me.

I'm a bit of a doofus so it's probably just all in my mind though :o

I have only used the Collagen Hydrolysate a few times, and it may just be my imagination, but I don't feel it is quite as "potent" as the gelatin. I didn't get the same "sleeping pill" effect I get from the gelatin. Also, I am currently struggling with a back problem and I think the gelatin provides me a little temporary relief from the pain but the Collagen Hydrolysate didn't even touch it.

Scarlet

Sun, Sep-18-11, 17:30

I have only used the Collagen Hydrolysate a few times, and it may just be my imagination, but I don't feel it is quite as "potent" as the gelatin. I didn't get the same "sleeping pill" effect I get from the gelatin. Also, I am currently struggling with a back problem and I think the gelatin provides me a little temporary relief from the pain but the Collagen Hydrolysate didn't even touch it.

Is Collagen Hydrolysate the one that dissolves instantly?

BiBa

Sun, Sep-18-11, 18:02

Is Collagen Hydrolysate the one that dissolves instantly?Hydrolysed collagen or hydrolysed gelatin have the same nutritional value, but hydrolysed gelatin won't gel, because the hydrolysis process reduces the collagen proteins into small peptides, making them more digestible. It does dissolve more easily in room temperature, but you have to let it sit for a few minutes in order to completely dissolve the powder.

BiBa

Mon, Sep-19-11, 05:53

sollyb

Mon, Sep-19-11, 09:28

For those of you looking for a thyroid glandular, here is the one recommended by Lita Lee: http://www.litalee.com/SFP_shopexd.asp?id=457
American Biologics Thyroid Glandular: http://americanbiologics.com/glandulars_pitthym-20.shtml

Much cheaper at Lucky Vitamin.
This is actually the thyroid I started with, and had I NOT followed the advice at a certain site to overdose myself, I'd probably have done very well, as I started out with very good results, but pushing for a higher and higher dose really did me in, and I've been struggling ever since to get back to balance between thyroid and adrenals......its been somewhere around 4-6 years now, and I'm still not back, but with my temps good, BP excellent from eating as close to Peat as I can, things are definitely looking better at last.
sol

Merpig

Mon, Sep-19-11, 09:39

Much cheaper at Lucky Vitamin.
This is actually the thyroid I started with, and had I NOT followed the advice at a certain site to overdose myself, I'd probably have done very well, as I started out with very good results, but pushing for a higher and higher dose really did me in, I'm just curious how high you pushed yourself. I'm on prescription thyroid gladular (Armour) currently taking a 150mg (2.5 grains) dose, and all the thyroid sites seem to say you are not "optimized" until you get to the 3-4 grain range on average. But I seem to be doing okay with 2.5. Though I would consider upping the dose to see how it goes, but my NP won't increase the prescription. I might considered buying some OTC thyroid to supplement my prescription.

ThomasSeay

Mon, Sep-19-11, 10:27

For those of you looking for a thyroid glandular, here is the one recommended by Lita Lee: http://www.litalee.com/SFP_shopexd.asp?id=457
American Biologics Thyroid Glandular: http://americanbiologics.com/glandulars_pitthym-20.shtml

Any reason Lita Lee switched from Nutripak to this? This is twice as expensive as Nutripak.

BiBa

Mon, Sep-19-11, 12:49

Any reason Lita Lee switched from Nutripak to this? This is twice as expensive as Nutripak.Who knows?... I heard her advice on this interview: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sharry-edwards/2011/09/18/hormones-the-master-of-our-universe I think the cows from where the thyroid granular comes from are grass fed, organic, whatever. She didn't say that, she only said they were "happy cows", but I have heard about thyroid granular from Argentina before, just can't remember where...

jem51

Tue, Sep-20-11, 07:36

Lita Lee makes money selling supplements so that may have had something to do w the switch.

Unless a product specifically states that it is only derived from cows that are not supplemented w hormone, or pastured or whatever, then don't assume that the term 'happy cows' has that meaning.
Cows can be pastured and still fed mainly grain and also given hormones.

deb34

Tue, Sep-20-11, 08:32

BiBa

Tue, Sep-20-11, 08:48

these thyroid glandulars are sold w/o prescrption?I think they are, but I prefer to go without them for the moment, exactly because I don't have a doctor willing to follow me on such "experiment".

Merpig

Tue, Sep-20-11, 09:11

these thyroid glandulars are sold w/o prescrption? Aren't they afraid that people(probably like me) would take this stuff without being diagnosed hypothyroid? I know for sure my doctor thinks my thyroid is "just fine" so would never consider prescribing anything but sometimes I feel that I fit the subclinicial symptoms and it really is tempting to diagnose myself and 'try out' a supplement myself. I probably could do some real damage to myself if I did this, I presume there are others who already do this w/o an official diagnosis... Well depending on where you live you could also order your own tests to check your thyroid conditions, at a very reasonable cost. This is legal to do in every state in the US except for NJ, NY and RI. I previously lived in NJ where it was illegal, but now that I live in Florida I can do it if I want to! For details see: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

This way if you wanted to try to go it alone you could at least have an idea if it was worthwhile or not, and if the treatments were working or not. I was tempted to try the OTC meds myself when I could not get a doctor to prescribe them, but was also afraid of doing it "wrong". And it wasn't easy to self-test when I lived in NJ. But now I'm seeing a nurse practitioner who prescibes Armour for me.