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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Nov-30-02, 18:26
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Thumbs up Thank you, Cassie

Thank you. Thank you.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You were clear, articulate and stated my position precisely. Again, thank you.
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Dec-01-02, 13:54
slimmin slimmin is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 982
 
Plan: Atkins Induction
Stats: 157/147.5/138 Female 5 ft 6 1/2 in
BF:?/26%/24%
Progress: 50%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Default What a debate!

Since this thread was posted in the CAD/CALP forum, I can only think that it was intended primarily for people who are either already on CAD or already thinking about making a switch.

I have read and re-read the original post several times trying to figure out why it set off such a strong reaction from Agonycat. I certainly didn't see it as an attack on Atkins or as any kind of comparison of the 2 plans.

Based on my own experience, I have to agree with what Zule wrote. I was on Atkins for more than 4 months. I stalled as soon as I finished Induction - I stayed the same weight for over 3 months. And most of the time, I kept my net carbs under 30. I only ate 3 meals a day, but I snacked frequently ... on nuts (pecans), on SF Jello, and on LC choc. I was hungry most evenings. Eventually, I began to cheat.

I only switched to CAD 3 weeks ago. I haven't cheated yet, and I have no urge to snack. I eat huge reward meals, loaded with all kinds of bad HC foods, but they have yet to set off a binge. And, I have lost weight and am now below the weight at which I stalled for months on Atkins.

Maybe another difference is that the Hellers seem to count total carbs, not net carbs as Atkins does (which would explain their ban on nuts).

I am NOT saying that CAD is a better plan than Atkins, and I don't think that Zule was either. I AM saying that CAD seems to work better for ME than Atkins.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Dec-02-02, 07:50
plum's Avatar
plum plum is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,809
 
Plan: Primal Blueprint
Stats: 230/136/136 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

I hope I can add to the debate ( and maybe make things clearer) by posting my experience.

Unfortunately its only " anecdotal evidence" but here goes.

I believe in the Dr Atkins woe 100%.... , I have 4 friends at home having great success, not to mention my many internet friends.

However, I have spent a total of 20 months with my own Atkins woe, stuck. Not for the want of trying, and I am grateful for the help and support I recieved.

I lost in induction, but then nothing, despite all the "tweaks". I vowed to never give up but my lament was always "why did I lose on induction and none since " I had carbs up, carbs down cals up, down, you name it !

In the end feeling a total failure, I finally admitted... Atkins doesnt work for me. I was terribly disappointed as I believe in it so much. I was beginning to accept that Atkins could help me maintain my weight.

then, desperately... and desperately is the word..... I browsed CAD forum.... to read..

"at the same time putting a carb addict on Atkins, other than the induction phase or one of the other more moderate LC plans, wont work for them either"

I recognised myself at last. I AM that person

I cried with relief. Then I went out to buy CAD. I had picked it up in the bookshop, and at a quick glance, thought.... no way - fad diet. But on reading it.... it dawned on me..... snow pea broccoli, cream, my Atkins staples..... were these sabotaging my efforts ? I couldnt believe what I was reading, but it made sense.

Well, its early days, Im 2 weeks in, and have lost 2 lb. But ... I have that feeling that all Atkins people have--- the energy, the alertness---- that I never had before.

I now believe wholeheartedly that there are a group of people that Atkins just wont work for. I can only speak from personal experience on this one. Im so glad I read these threads.

sorry this turned into an epic to summarise, yes I think there is a case to carry such statements in our forums, and with additional debate theres a wealth of information for us LC ers.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Dec-02-02, 08:40
JoaniePA JoaniePA is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 128
 
Plan: Atkins, CAD, Atkins
Stats: 160/136.5/125
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Southeastern PA
Default

I find this thread to be fascinating (not the banter, mind you, but the topic). I have believed for a year now that I am both carb addicted, AND allergic to certain carbs. BOTH. If I eat more than a miniscule amount of any wheat product I immediately begin the bloat, cramp, gas thing. followed by a desire for more, more, more. Rice and potatos and other high carb vegies have zero effect in the bloat, cramp, gas thingie. My mom is like this, as is my brother who struggles mightily with the RM and has gone back to Atkins because of it. Realizing this, I try to tailor my RMs and CMs so that my wheat intake is minimal, soy based baked goods if I have 'em, but I follow all other aspects of CAD (not CALP). I have no problem at all with any other high carbohydrate food at the RM in terms of bloating etc. and binging after.

I'd be very interested to know if others have come to the same conclusion.

Joanie
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Dec-02-02, 13:15
luv67fire's Avatar
luv67fire luv67fire is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 147
 
Plan: CAD
Stats: 244/226.5/140
BF:
Progress: 17%
Location: Northern California
Default

Joanie,

I don't know if I actually posted anything about people who are both, or if I just meant to.

However, from reading through the endless journals and the patterns that emerged from then, I did see that that there were some people with both an allergy and an addiction.

For instance, Plum, might have a resistance against eggs. Since only that effects her, it means she is allergic. A carb addict should not have such effects from the small amount of carbs that eggs contain. However, since she does, she must have an allergy of sorts. It is a trigger food for her.

I believe that in cases where one has both an allergy AND an addiction, than they would be best suiting both. Do CAD or CALP, but take out those "trigger" foods or the foods you find yourself allergic to. If it is near to impossible, especially with the RM, than another plan would be more appropriate. However, since CMs requre such little amount of carbs, and the RM can allow ANY high carb, and not just wheat (in your case), you can put in high carb veggies, like you suggested. Or sweets, if that doesn't get ya too.

Either way, I think that the low carb plans out there are enough to fill most people's needs. If they have a specific problem (ie candida or diabetes) there are plans for that. There are plans for carb addicts, and there are plans for people who want to eliminate carbs almost entirely. All in all, it is about what your body reacts to and it is SO important that we listen to it. I know that most of us here have no problem with that, though!! lol, one of the many reasons why we saw CAD/LP in the first place!!!
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  #21   ^
Old Tue, Dec-03-02, 04:28
plum's Avatar
plum plum is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,809
 
Plan: Primal Blueprint
Stats: 230/136/136 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

it occurred to me that I was so busy going on about "me" that I didnt actually answer Agonycats question. And yes Agonycat you are right because to me its a bit of a puzzle as well.

but I can only attempt to answer with anecdotal evidence again. Ive done induction x2. Both times lost 10 - 12 lb then siezed up.

During induction I ate meats and salads. As I was previously doing " healthy hi carb low fat" I think my body went into shock dumped the water weight and a bit of fat. Most lost during the first week.

Then I got happy with the loss and added back.... cos I wanted to stay healthy.... broccoli, peppers, eggs.
( the very things I think I am sensitive to)

I also tried increasing snacks, as my cals were at about 1,200.

CAs ( as opposed to "normal" whatever that is ) can react with insulin response to food ans snacks eaten at other times than RM. This includes reaction to cream, or milk in drinks to veg like broccoli and snow pea.
No snacKs and eating 4 times or less is better for a CA ( and with me, its proving to be 2 - 3 only.) with trying to get my cals up, I was eating 5-6x.

What would have happened if Id stayed on just meat and salad ? dont know, but even with K+ I was feeling weak.

luv67fire and JoaniePA, yes I think youre right and people can be both. I think my time on Atkins, and my food choices were fairly limited , made me more sensitive to what I react to.... Ive been able to tell whats upsetting me from my food diaries.

Last edited by plum : Tue, Dec-03-02 at 04:30.
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  #22   ^
Old Tue, Dec-03-02, 08:02
skyspinner's Avatar
skyspinner skyspinner is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,372
 
Plan: Six week Body Makeover
Stats: 251.4/220.4/135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 27%
Default

While I am always in favour of open discussion, and while I appreciate the level of knowledge and experience apparent in Z's defenders, I must deplore the tone of this thread as a bit too confrontational. Some of us are making efforts to remain congenial and open-minded.....I would hope that we all could do so.

Surely we are all aware that everything each of us says is an "opinion"? That none of us are scientific researchers, that there is no "research" at hand to display? If we had to be in posession of solidly proven facts before making a comment, the valuable interchange of ideas and opinions on these BBS would surely die off.

While there may indeed be some scientists among us, I would venture to say that they are few, and that most of us are simply relaying our beliefs and experiences. We do not deserve to be attacked for this behaviour. It is in the discussion that each of us has the opportunity to decide what we believe. Anything that closes off such discussion is counter-productive. And I really doubt that updating a post always indicates that one is looking for a debate. Sometimes it just means that the question has been raised again and one would like others to read it again.

I for one, thought that Z had adequately answered agonycat's point of why Induction works for CAs while OWL does not when she talked about adding more carby foods during OWL. I do not see how she could have specified a level of carbs to support her opinion....this must be a very individual level.

It seems to me (this is my OPINION) that Z has had experience w/ Atkins for herself and has read of the experiences of others and that is how she came to the conclusions she stated. This kind of basis for her opinion could not possibly have been based in any sort of formal research activity, but is empiric in nature. The Hellers appear to depend upon empiric knowledge a great deal, although they also are fortunate enough to be able to practice more formal research methods.

I am very glad that so many CADettes came here and voiced their beliefs.....it shows that they have developed some beliefs! As each of us forges his or her own plan for success, beliefs are pretty much what we go on......in my opinion.

Now let us go forward amicably, shall we? There is gold to be mined here in each others opinions, and our success depends on it.
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  #23   ^
Old Tue, Dec-03-02, 08:18
JoaniePA JoaniePA is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 128
 
Plan: Atkins, CAD, Atkins
Stats: 160/136.5/125
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Southeastern PA
Default

Huh..?? Am I now a CADette? How cute!

I don't have any beliefs, just theories, and I'm old enough to know that MOST of my theories are usually disproved to some degree! (my hubby and I have regular bets, and I am nearly always proved wrong.. so I make sure I can afford to lose the ante!)

Being rather new to the Board (but not new to LCing) I find the overly sarcastic nature of some of posts to be a bit off-putting, but I try to ignore it as best I can and focus on what I came here for. Anyhow, it's very easy to "read" things the wrong way when you can't see someone's face and body language.

sigh....

best,
Joanie
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  #24   ^
Old Tue, Dec-03-02, 11:20
luv67fire's Avatar
luv67fire luv67fire is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 147
 
Plan: CAD
Stats: 244/226.5/140
BF:
Progress: 17%
Location: Northern California
Default

I agree, CADette, has a nice ring! Lol...

If anyone has taken offense in my posts, or found them to be sarcastic in nature, I truly am sorry. I honestly tried to avoid that, and was just trying to get the point across. Feel free to PM with any concerns, as I am willing to apologize for any misconceptions that may have taken place I debate on multiple boards, and might have brought too much of that "tone" into this one.

Either way, as reading through this thread, I believe it to be very informative, and one that people new to CAD would benefit in reading. It might help them realize that there are reasons behind stalls, in most plans, and listening to your body can be the number one key to finding out. Agonycat's questions may have just made it more in depth and detail, which is a good thing! All in all, I think people should continue to add to it, so we might build a honest experience based "study" of sorts. To testify whether they feel they have an addiction, allergy, or both.

I know my problem is pure addiction. I have no harsh reactions to carbs, never have. I just get all the "addict" signs when eaten in abundance. My mother, who tried this woe for about two weeks, has "allergic" reactions to sugar. She is definitely addicted to carbs, but sugar gives her migraines, sick tummy, etc. LOL, she stopped doing CAD though, she just couldn't kick the rice!! But with all the weight loss and the loss of hunger and cravings I had, she is starting to give it a closer look. I gave her both CALP AND Atkins book, so she might decide for herself which one is better.
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 20:12
skyspinner's Avatar
skyspinner skyspinner is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,372
 
Plan: Six week Body Makeover
Stats: 251.4/220.4/135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 27%
Default

Thanks, Cassie.....that makes a lot of sense!

Oh, and I didn't take offense at anything you said.....don't even think about that! I think we got off quite a few posts back, but everybody has generally just been super! And taken a lot of care in expressing his or her opinions. (There's that word again!!!)

Keep it coming, folks....
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  #26   ^
Old Sat, Dec-14-02, 04:44
chazel's Avatar
chazel chazel is offline
New Member
Posts: 23
 
Plan: Dr. Atkins'
Stats: 170/158/150
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: France
Default

Just to say that I have much enjoyed reading this 'debate', and find such spicy posts much more interesting and informative than always 'afraid to offend/sugary' replies. I am now going to do more 'insulin provoking' experiments on myself as I am a bit stuck at the moment. I am so pleased this board exists - otherwise I would have lost interest long ago!
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Jan-06-03, 19:45
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Default

Update.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Jan-24-03, 18:54
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Default

Update
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  #29   ^
Old Sun, Mar-23-03, 07:12
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Default

Update
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  #30   ^
Old Tue, Apr-15-03, 07:17
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Default

update
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