Hi Levi!

Well, firstly I’ve lived in Germany and let’s be honest; there are plenty of fat people there too! Secondly I’m British not American and over the last 40 years or so I’ve seen British people getting fatter and fatter. I have my own theory so here goes:

When I was a young boy in the post war ‘50’s most meals consisted of meat, potatoes and at least three different vegetables. This is typical British cooking – lots of vegetables. In the past 50 years however British cooking has become much more international. The Americans gave us McDonald’s and all its clones – French fries (carbohydrates) with a bit of meat in a bun (more carbohydrates); the Italians gave us pasta dishes (carbohydrates with sauce) and pizza (carbohydrates with crap on top); Chinese and Indian take away places opened everywhere (rice=carbohydrates with bits of meat, often coated with carbohydrates in sauce). As a child I drank tea, milk, and water we couldn’t afford soft drinks loaded with sugar. Now they are everywhere.

I live in Belarus (Weissrusland to you) and people here are also generally slim. Again, no international cuisine and lots of vegetables.

Maybe German culture is more resistant to change than the British one was – but if it is not then you can look forward to Germans getting fatter and fatter too, just like we Brits have!

Actually this was a useful posting and has caused many people to think – never a bad thing. Well done Levi!

Regards,

Robert

Your question is powerful and emotive but I think there are elements of this that need to be discussed. There IS a wave of obesity starting from the US but spreading over the whole globe - English speaking people then industrialised first.

No-one is immune - I recently read reports in the French media that obesity in French children was growing at an alarming rate. Eurpeans are behind in this but we're still following the same trend - this is initiated in the US but we're all ending up in the same place.

The low carb theory offers some interesting solutions as to what may be going wrong despite peopl's best efforts.

My candidates for US-style obesity are the following:

• Hydrogenated oils
• sweets
• cola drinks
• artificail sweetners
• high carb diets

Put more simply I think its obesity caused by an increase in sugar and flour (refined) aggravated by US style consumerism (advertising and centralised distribution) and aggravated by a misguided attempt to live healthily (margarine, hydrogenated oils, breakfast cerals, cutting meat and butter and yo-yo dieting)

The problem has the feel of an avalanche because government advice merely feeds the original problem instead of curing it. The brutal truth is that as a species we're more and more removed from our habitat and our natural foods and the powers that be won't challenge the food industry vested interests

Perhaps the overreaction of the Americans was caused by their sensitivity to the word obese.
After all, this is a nation where e.g. the word menstruation isn't said out loud, but referred to as the TOM (time of the month). Or when you're blind, you're visually challenged. Instead of obese, they are gravitationally challenged.

Frankly, I consider myself to be obese, as I have 35,5% body fat (measured again today).
I don't know the tables for BF% but I just did a test for Body Mass Index and it results in 31,2.
The table reads the following
Lower than 18: underweight
18-24,9: normal
25-29,9: overweight
30-39,9: obese (obesitas)
>39,9: morbidly obese (morbide obesitas)

Luckily they are a bit off the mark as I have a lot of lean body mass (around 50 kg out of 78) and I'm in the overweight group..

For years I'd react very emotionally when people would have said to me that I'm obese, but a couple of things cured me...
1 a visit to the USA, where I saw more obese people in 1 hour than in all of my life in Europe or Australia/NZ
2 a love of sports.. so I may be obese, but I'm good at cycling and love climbing mountains..

To me, the main cause of obesity in the USA is probably the huge servings you get in restaurants loaded with the wrong kind of foods. Same for the size of packages.
I was startled by the lack of good and fresh vegetables and fruit, which are also very expensive in the USA.
My background is a bit similar to what the others say: told to eat everything on the plate because of the starving kids in Africa. I would skip breakfast and lunch, so my only meal of the day would be dinner which I didn't even like that much...
Now I'm trying to eat 6 meals a day of 300 kcals and feel stuffed.. but interestingly also hungry once the next meal comes around..

Be grateful that the culture in Europe (Germany) is still a fairly healthy one, but this is something which unfortunately is changing rapidly. I'm seeing some women in my fitness club that could easily be mistaken for American women.. however, I'm very happy they take the steps to do something about it.. Being very obese is less socially accepted in Europe as well, but being a tad overweight is not something we obsess over...

Hope i didn't offense anyone again, I just wanted to say what I experienced during my travels in the USA of approx. 1 year... btw, Americans are among the friendliest people I ever met (except for Canadians, New Zealanders, Ozzies and Cubans which come equal or before).

ROFLOL! I am not sure what part of the US you visited, but I can emphatically say that this is not true! TOM is just easier to type.



"Expensive" is a realative term - I don't find the fruits and vegatables to be expensive. Nor do I find them not to be fresh!



Yep, I agree that is a contributing factor.

Hi Fietser,

What surprised me about the reaction of my American cousins was not how easily they were offended but their extreme politness and their honest attempts to give an answer.

What hurts about the question is not the word 'obese', it was that the question was asked to a group of people who,realising they are obese, have decided to do something about it.

This thread has caused a lot of soul searching; and that is not such a bad thing. We have all asked ourselves why we are obese (or fat or whatever), we have all decided it is because of too many carbohydrates and we're all trying to do something about it.

Good for us!

Regards,

Robert (An obese Brit.)

Indeed.

I realise that some of our readers are seeing this discussion for the first time. So, for their benefit, I'd like to point out that this thread was originally posted by levi in our Triple Digits forum. He did not post it in the Research area, he did not post it in the General area. He specifically targeted our members who are struggling to lose 100+ lbs.

Just so folks have some perspective on the earliest replies here.

Doreen

I guess it depends on where you shop, what's in season and what you are looking for. I never have trouble finding good quality fresh fruits and veggies that are in season for a reasonable price. If I want to buy a fruit or vegetable that isn't in season, of course I'm going to pay more for it as they usually have to be shipped in from Chile or Mexico when things are out of season here. For example...I live in Michigan and wouldn't even think of trying to buy oranges in the summertime...wrong season for them; they would be a dollar a piece and probably not very tasty, but in the winter months, I can get a 5 pound bag of juicy, tasty Florida oranges for about 2 dollars. On the other hand, in the summer I can get canteloupe for about a dollar a piece, but in the winter months they would be at least triple that. If you're buying what's in season, the prices, quality and availability are quite good...at least where I live.
Expensive is a relative term. I won't argue that it costs more to eat meat and fresh fruits and veggies than macaroni and cheese and spahgetti, but then again, how much is your health worth?

Thanks for the replies, I saw too late the topic was a 'dead horse' (started in July) but since I'm new on the board .. started a keto diet 4 weeks ago and did 2 carbo loads in 2 weekends.. actually I think I'm borderline diabetic and now I'm not used to eating that many carbs anymore I actually don't even like carboloading in the weekend and will do a daily mini-carboload instead.

I have another question, where is Adipositas 101?

I've bought Lyle McDonalds ketogenic dieting book but haven't started reading yet (busy, busy), but I am currently quite concerned about my metabolism. As I never really recorded my food intake, I have no idea how much my typical input would be, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 2000 kcal on a daily basis. I just was a terribly irregular eater... with alternatively carbo loading and starving myself. Yet, everyone always supposes I'm eating way too much and I've started to believe the same, without exactly knowing whether it was true or not (I never dieted because my mom said it was no use, but instead I just wouldn't eat all day). Isn't this dieting stuff maddeningly complex? Eat too little and your metabolism slows down, eat too much and it speeds up but you still put on weight, etc etc..
A last observation.. there was a nation-wide research done in the NLs regarding food habits. It was concluded that we would all be overweight if it wasn't for the regular (cycling) exercise most of us got.. that tipped the scale towards being healthy enough. Hence I refuse to buy a car, unless I'd be forced to.. so far I am not... so am forced to cycle anywhere or at least to the railway station...

I'm reading the thread now and thought that I forgot to add that I also saw more Americans that were extremely thin and fit than I see in my own country.
Hence I looked into my stories which I wrote about my cycling accomplishments. I participated in Paris-Brest-Paris in 1999 but DNFed after 700 K (it's a 750 mi non-stop ride where you have to finish in maximally 90 hrs). I put in the part about the Americans:

Later I met the Americans, who were mostly staying in luxury hotels, together with their luxury bikes. These bikes made poor Griffon shrink, because of a starting inferiority complex. Not only his owner had surplus weight, but also poor Griffon was now recognised as a 'heavy bike' whereas he had just been complimented on his lightness in Russia! More than half of the American bikes seemed to be made of titanium, carbon or at least aluminium. Even some of the tandems were made of titanium. Lots of futuristic designs too with free-floating saddles!
" But surely Griffon, they can't do fully-loaded tours, like we do!” Not just the bikes were dazzling, the randonneurs too! Not just their outfit, but their 'physique'. Almost all of them, and almost especially the women seem fit enough to walk up the Mt. Everest with a bike on their back!

Yes, this is another side to the USA.. the dazzlingly beautiful bodies of so many fit people.. I can't get to any gym here which opens before 9 am and I am lucky mine DOES open at 9 as my former gym would open at 1600 hr (but opens 11-13 on 4 days/week).

I just needed to add my two penneth about whether levi's post was offensive.

First language. Like alot of Germans his English seems very good. What he won't have command over however is the subtlety of register and that's where the greatest offence usually occurs because register indicates a subtle collection of rules we are socialised into and are rarely made explicit unlike grammar and spelling which are. Register tells you what you can get away with and when..... I think an English speaking person even if not from the US will have a better handle on this (if only because of exposure to this in American films and TV).

As people who are beginning to address our overweight/obesity the slap in the face posed by this question can be helpful. You can only survive obesity by adapting to it. Adaptation strategies include acceptance of a higher weight, denial, refusal to weigh yourself or look at yourself in a mirror and various forms of rationalisation. I was quite shocked to find out I had a BMI of over 30 (actually I had a BMI of 34 !!!!!). I think you need various coping mechanisms including some degree of lack of reality to maintain your self esteem.

But eventually something cuts through the armour. Either seeing a photo of yourself or being told you're overweight or developing a medical condition. And that's how most of us decided to try low carb. Given the way our society works low carb is a strange diet so chances are most of us are here because we've tried more conventional methods resulting in failure and realising this plan was our last hope.

Anyway I think that part of the process of healing is to get back to reality and start acknowledging the bottom line in a frank and brutal way.

Of course this is not for everyone - we're all at different stages of defensiveess and that has to be respected. However I note that this thread is in the war zone. (not sure if it started there or was moved there) so I think we should be more robust about levi's question.

I think for me it is helpful to start calling a spade a spade. I also think I need to psychologically process the slow descet into obesity in order to be able to come to terms with being thinner. I have found that I have needed to do this mind work every bit as much as the work on my body in order to have the motivation to continue. I have also found that it is not easy and the psychological component of adjustig to a new body image can be hard and confusing.

For these reasons I do feel for anyone offended by levi's post (I am sure he's tough enough to take a few reprimands on the chin in any case) but overall I'm really glad of his question and some of the really insightful replies it has generated as well as helping my own psychologocal process.

This thread has been one of the most illuminating things I've read in a really long time.

Very illuminating indeed Jarmin!
A thing which is necessary for all of us, is to
- be able to really believe that we can be thin(ner) than we are now (and all the wonderful success stories here point to it). In the past I would not believe in it and start eating garbage again, once I was close to my desired weight
- be able to distinguish between the physical you and the mental/inner you. We aren't worthless because we are fat/obese/overweight whatever, but this is unfortunately the way society looks at obese people. Hence the great offence. In the past I would have been offended as well. Heck, my brother told me not to wear those wonderfully comfortable fleece leggings because I have a too big butt. I still did and do.. which is an improvement as in the past I didn't put on a swimming suit for 15 years because my body was too embarassing to myself. Or undress myself in a public dress room of a gym! Now I do all these things again and while I still don't like myself, I am not ashamed anymore.. This also holds true for having sex with another partner.. I never had a lasting friendship with a man, because again, my weight was too embarassing for myself... A pity that I thought that way.. am changing this as well.
Yet, the question was originally aimed at the difference between Europe (or Germany) and the USA. Not why we (you, me, others) are fat, but why are there more fat/obese people in the USA versus all other countries.
There have been enough answers and I gave answers as well... hope you found my observations on the amazingly fit Americans amusing !

Orinally, he posted it in the Triple Digits Forum, where people have 100+ pounds to lose. When you read the phrase "how did you become SO obese", be aware he's talking to people who are more than 100 pounds over their target weight. We have people in there who are fighting with loosing 200, 300 pounds. He emphasized the word "so" by capitalising, and by putting it in the place where people have to work the hardest to lose the most weight.

Had he placed this in the War Zone to begin with, none of us might have had the kind of reaction we did. We would have seen it as a slap in the face, but because it's in the War Zone, we would expect that. Instead, he put up an avatar of a trim body builder (presumably a picture of himself), with stats that demonstrated he was either at or below his goal weight, and then asked this question of people who literally, have the most to lose. He asked this question of people who have fought with this problem for years, people who have been conditioned to be ashamed of their girth. We get judged by everyone around us, and we get judged by ourselves. The Triple Digits Thread is a group of people who have decided to do something about their weight, something rather radical to the common view. These are people who come here to find support and encouragement when they can find no where else. We come together and celebrate every pound gone, because that's another step towards health and victory. We're actually paying in our health for the weight we carry. In the light of those facts, can you begin to understand the kind of reactions he got?

This got moved to the War Zone, where it should have started.

I really don't see how good and fresh vegetables are that expensive in America. I think the problem is that people will pay more for frozen vegetables in a bag because it more convenient than preparing fresh food. It is actually cheaper to buy fresh, at least in the part of the country in which I live. I also agree that people eat out too much. Eating out seems to have become Americas #1 social activity. When I began Atkins, I really became aware of this, and made a conscious decision to eat out only on occasion. And we've talked about fresh veggies being expensive....by not eating out as much I could buy enough fresh fruits & veggies to last me into the next decade.

Levi - you gotta be kidding! What black forest in Germany do you come from??? Germany, the capital of beer drinking and sausage eating, and you are saying you don't see obese Germans? Open your eyes and look around - Germany has it's fair share of obese people as well. Maybe not in the narcissistic little world you live in, but in Germany as a whole. The reasons for the obesity problem amongst ANY group of people is so varied and individualized there is not enough time and/or space here to go into it in detail. I'm sure you didn't get your low bodyfat, bodybuilders physique without a lot of concentrated and hard work. Not to mention the constant attention to diet. It would be noble if you truly wanted to understand what makes people become overweight, however, I believe you were more interested in getting your photo on this forum and "rubbing everybody's nose" in their weight problem. Be careful you don't seriously injury yourself and have to go without being able to work out and watch your diet. You might find yourself "ballooning up" and forced to go on a serious weight loss regimen. I wonder how you would handle this serious blow to your self-esteem. My bet is it would be devastating as so much of who you are is obviously based on your physical appearance.

JayDee read the thread..
Ever been to Germany. Yes, it is a country full of overweight people, but very few of them are as obese/overweight as you can see in the USA.
Hence his question phrased as "SO obese".
It has been addressed quite eloquently in the thread and if I may say so by myself as well (albeit not as eloquently).