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  #46   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 04:12
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
The only thing I can figure out is that they like the "effortless" appetite control provided by the drug...

I'd already read that you needed to eat pretty low fat on Wegovy, or it would make you throw up, and that you needed to concentrate on eating grains, vegetables, and fruits, because meats would be very difficult to digest...

They both just have the problem that they can't stick with LC and frankly I don't think they consider LC to be healthy - all that fat and protein can't possibly be good for you, right?


You have hammered it down to the essence, Calianna. Thank you for confirming what I have long suspected. The incessant pro-plant propaganda has indeed left a mark.

And I just ran across the most pertinent quote for this issue:

Quote:
No written law has ever been more binding than unwritten custom supported by popular opinion. —Carrie Chapman Catt (1900) addressing the US Congress about the amendment for a nationwide Women's Right to Vote


I keep going back to my conference experiences, where I'm eating in front of a lot of strangers. It's basic mass lunch fare (which leaves soup out because it WILL have flour in it) but usually sandwiches and fruit and salad. Ditch the bread, put the meat on the salad, and I'm happy. (I still love sandwiches

But the barely concealed LOOKS I got were kinda hilarious. My co-workers and friends were familiar with my meal deconstructions But "out in the wild" leaving the bread and just eating sandwich innards freaked them out. I was trying to kill myself right in front of them!

It makes them question what they think they know. Which IS "unwritten custom supported by popular opinion."

They have embedded all this false food "guidance" and people, overwhelmingly, listen to it. They did change their diet. To everyone's detriment!
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  #47   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 05:50
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Plan: very low carb real food
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna

It's a lot more fun (food as entertainment for your mouth), it's a lot easier (no concerns about finding a restaurant meal that's LC friendly)... At least that's the logic I'm seeing. Sadly.


When I first started losing weight eating low carb (about 20 years ago now) people would ask me what I was doing to lose the weight. I would tell them about low carb and they would invariably say that they couldn’t possibly give up whatever it was they couldn’t possibly give up, ice cream, desserts, bread etc. Now, when people are used to seeing me at my current “normal” weight, I have occasionally had someone tell me how lucky I was to be so thin, something they are not. Luck had nothing to do with it other than the luck of discovering low carb and that was because I did the research. I no longer view food as entertainment. How it tastes or how it makes me feel are no longer my first priorities. This doesn’t mean I don’t want my food to taste good but that it is a secondary consideration to whether or not it enhances my health. Of course this means that you have to do the research and determine what is in fact healthy and then stick to what you learn. Sadly so many people don’t seem to be able to do that plus they get all kinds of bad advice.
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  #48   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 06:32
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JeanM JeanM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I'm glad, too. I had that in my teens, but took care of the psychology by my early twenties.

The physiology wasn't fixed until I tried Atkins. I think I was getting real nutrition for the first time


I had a good year on Atkins. No tracking after I got used to the allowed foods but I stalled out with 10 lbs left to lose. I cut the fat amounts down a bit and started jogging to get the last pounds off. I am not really sure if I could do it the same way again? I have noticed a pattern in that I tend to get anxious and carb hungry come fall. I used to pooh pooh the idea and think it was all in my head. I see my husband's appetite increase too as winter approaches.
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  #49   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 06:46
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanM
I have noticed a pattern in that I tend to get anxious and carb hungry come fall. I used to pooh pooh the idea and think it was all in my head. I see my husband's appetite increase too as winter approaches.


We actually evolved to do so. Dr. Jack Kruse introduced me to the concept of seasonal eating, where we always feasted at harvest time so we had fat to live off during a carnivore (animal products) winter.

Then, plants in spring to feature greens, since fruit harvest next, and starchy tubers at harvest time; all when things are in season. Eat them at their peak and consider bio-availability.

So no, it's not your imagination. It's how we evolved over 15,000 years of agriculture.
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  #50   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 07:51
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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The one who has diabetes - I understand why that individual jumped on the Ozempic train. It's supposed to improve your blood sugar control, and after many months, it has improved that one's A1C.



The other one - I suspect actually asked to be put on Wegovy, purely to lose weight. That one has had pretty good weight loss in just a few months time - but honestly not any more than on LC. In fact I think the weight loss on LC was even more dramatic in the same amount of time. But apparently it's just so much easier to stick to the low fat Wegovy diet than it was to stick to the LC way of eating.

And part of that is the thing of eating out. WB -when you eat out, you have no problem with getting a sandwich and a salad, dumping the bread and eating the sandwich filling on a salad. Most people are so intimidated and embarrassed by the potential reaction of others in that sort of situation that they can't bring themselves to do that, so they eat the bread. They've convinced themselves that the bread tastes so good that it's worth it.

As an example, the friend who is on Wegovy ordered a sandwich at a restaurant a few days ago - when it came it was on thick sliced bread, instead of the thin sliced that was ordered. Of course Wegovy friend has no problem eating bread on that diet, but didn't want the sandwich to be mostly bread. Rather than deconstructing the sandwich in any way, this person complained that the sandwich was too big, so they could only eat half of it. But they pointed out that it was only too big because of the thick cut bread. OK, so they're eating bread - but why not remove one slice of the bread and either eat it open faced, or put aside the top slice of bread, slap the bottom halves together, and at least make sure to eat all of the filling? It's that feeling that "I can't do that, it's embarrassing to change anything about how it's originally presented to me."

But people who are on LC will do the same sort of thing. Then they regret it when eating the bread throws them out of ketosis and need to go through induction flu (again) to get back to a more ketogenic state again. Not to mention that eating the bread they ate one day also set off cravings for more bread... and some sweets... and those mashed potatoes look really good too. So before you know it they're cheating more and more often, never getting back into a ketogenic state, despite trying to stick to LC, but with so many carby temptations around, it seems futile.



Cotonpal, what you said about finding LC and sticking to it is key. Gotta be stubborn about it - NO, I really can't have the cake. NO, I really don't eat potatoes. NO, bread really isn't good for me.

When you said you did research about LC 20 years ago and determined that it was in fact healthy, that was during a time when LC had somewhat of a resurgence in popularity. I don't know if you did your research through books, or if you had access to the internet at that time, but this is what you come up with today when doing a search for information on a healthy diet:


Quote:
What is the best diet for a healthy body?
Emphasizes fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and fat-free or low-fat milk and milk products. Includes a variety of protein foods such as seafood, lean meats and poultry, eggs, legumes (beans and peas), soy products, nuts, and seeds. Is low in added sugars, sodium, saturated fats, trans fats, and cholesterol.
(At least they're suggesting that ADDED sugars should be limited)

By the same token, if you google "Is a low-carb diet healthy?" today, this is the sort of thing you come up with:

Quote:
Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet.


Warnings about how BAD you'll feel on a LC diet:
Quote:
As carbohydrates provide most of the fuel for daily activity and functioning, you'll probably have less energy if you stop eating carbohydrates. You may feel more tired and hungry and find concentrating more difficult.


Warnings against staying on LC long term:
Quote:
How long should you stay on a low-carb diet?
This includes cutting back carbohydrates to 50 grams a day or less, for at least two to three weeks up to six to 12 months, per the National Library of Medicine. Other researchers warn that sticking to the diet long-term could even be dangerous.


*sigh*

In some ways I'm happy that this person has found a diet that's easy to maintain and that they are losing weight - I just get very concerned about what's going to happen when the artificial appetite control is eventually removed -mostly because I can clearly see the writing on the wall because of what happens on that 7th day, how the appetite comes roaring back. And of course I'm concerned about all the other potential side effects too, but currently this person is too enamored by the weight loss to care about any of that.
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  #51   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 08:09
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Plan: very low carb real food
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Two things motivated me to change the way I was eating. One was that I was fat. I weighed 245 lbs. The other was that I believed, just from how I felt, that I was on my way to becoming diabetic. Being an old person I fell back on what I had learned in my early years, that diabetics needed to avoid carbs, so I started out just assuming that a low carb diet would be good for me. I read lots of books and I also found Dr Bernstein on the internet and joined his forum. I never got officially diagnosed as a diabetic. I just decided, since there was a family history, that I was most likely headed in that direction if i wasn’t there already so I embraced Dr Bernstein’s 6-12-12 dietary plan. Only later did I find out that the advice being given to diabetics now was different. So I guess I have been lucky. I also discovered paleo at around that time and called the way I decided to eat, low carb paleo. I was amazed at how quickly my ravenous hunger went away by eating in this manner. Why would I ever go back to eating in the way that made me sick? I no longer follow Dr Bernstein’s 6-12-12 but I have definiately stayed low carb and paleo. Works for me.
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  #52   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 08:45
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
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Plan: Paleoish/Keto
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Quote:
How long should you stay on a low-carb diet?
This includes cutting back carbohydrates to 50 grams a day or less, for at least two to three weeks up to six to 12 months, per the National Library of Medicine. Other researchers warn that sticking to the diet long-term could even be dangerous.

Quote:
Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet.


I've been low carbing for over 20 years and my blood chemistry is great and my physical activity level is high.
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  #53   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 09:24
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
But apparently it's just so much easier to stick to the low fat Wegovy diet than it was to stick to the LC way of eating.

And part of that is the thing of eating out. WB -when you eat out, you have no problem with getting a sandwich and a salad, dumping the bread and eating the sandwich filling on a salad. Most people are so intimidated and embarrassed by the potential reaction of others in that sort of situation that they can't bring themselves to do that, so they eat the bread. They've convinced themselves that the bread tastes so good that it's worth it.


Calianna, I have always found your observations about people and groceries so insightful It illustrates how many barriers to understanding there are between healthy eating and weight loss concerns. The biggest of which is that these two things are the same thing.

On the one hand, I think I never developed the "proper" sensitivity to letting other people make my decisions for me. We moved a lot and I never kept friends for the next school year until junior high, never had a crowd until high school.

I also put more thought into my decisions than most of the people around me while I was in school.

On the other hand, social ease and eating out go hand in glove. From a movie night with pizza to a big celebration like a birthday, we've gotten used to "poor people catering" and 99% of our guests will expect it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
*sigh*

In some ways I'm happy that this person has found a diet that's easy to maintain and that they are losing weight - I just get very concerned about what's going to happen when the artificial appetite control is eventually removed -mostly because I can clearly see the writing on the wall because of what happens on that 7th day, how the appetite comes roaring back. And of course I'm concerned about all the other potential side effects too, but currently this person is too enamored by the weight loss to care about any of that.


I agree. People really don't think about nutrition, because so much FUD* is out there around it, 90% industry shilling and paid "articles" overwhelm the sensible, scientifically based, approach. They don't know what to think, and they don't hear what they want from people who do know.


*Fear, uncertainty and doubt is a manipulative propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics, polling and cults.
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  #54   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 14:03
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doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: LC, GF
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Someone sent me this cartoon .. thought it fit here ..





Sigh
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  #55   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 16:00
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
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2x............
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  #56   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 16:43
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Originally Posted by doreen T
Someone sent me this cartoon .. thought it fit here ..





Sigh


Sadly true. Which I don't exactly understand, because I do dread drugs and surgery
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  #57   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 18:00
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is online now
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WB - relatively speaking this friend's diet is considered to be healthy, because it's being based on a combination of My Plate and the Mediterranean diet. This particular version of the Mediterranean diet includes the provision that all grains need to be whole grains, half the plate needs to be veggies. The biggest problem I see is that they're considering potatoes (a starchy tuber) and corn (a sweet grain) to be vegetables completely equivalent in nutritional value to green veggies. Then they have 1/4 of the plate grains, providing even more starchy carbs. If they're not eating fish or seafood in the 1/4 plate allotted to protein, they're filling that with beans or legumes - which means still more starch, but very little protein, and that at very low quality.

The two individuals doing this diet talk extensively about how incredibly nutritious they consider the food on the Med diet to be, and how they feel so much more nourished than they did on LC.

I can only assume that feeling nourished is really only based on the delayed stomach emptying because of the semaglutide drugs - they feel fuller, longer, and aren't hungry for as much or as often - and assume that the diet itself is the main reason, with the drugs only helping that along a bit.

That day 7 hunger should be the obvious indicator that the diet has nothing to do with feeling nourished, but they're not seeing that.

What they're eating is certainly better than a diet based on ramen, donuts, candy, and potato chips. But still a far cry from the nutritional profile of a properly designed LC diet.
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  #58   ^
Old Sat, Nov-04-23, 18:04
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doreen T
Someone sent me this cartoon .. thought it fit here ..





Sigh


This is all too true.
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  #59   ^
Old Tue, Nov-07-23, 00:12
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Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
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Quote:
'I woke up paralysed, with no speech': Inside the weight-loss drug black market

Our weight-loss culture has created a worrying black market in counterfeits, with concerns rising about the dangers for unwitting consumers


The package lay open on my kitchen table – a collection of syringes and a small, unmarked glass vial containing what was supposedly semaglutide, the key ingredient of the blockbuster weight-loss drugs Wegovy and Saxenda, as well as Ozempic, which is medically prescribed for Type 2 diabetes.

Two weeks earlier, I’d ordered the drugs, with remarkable ease, for the sum of £200 from an Instagram user and influencer. Blue-tick-verified by the platform, the seller promotes Instagram Stories to his 143,000 followers, and claims to sell both Ozempic pens and a semaglutide diet kit. This activity represents just one example of a thriving black-market trade, driven by global shortages of the popular weight-loss medications, which have become two of the fastest-selling drugs of all time during the past 12 months, irrevocably changing the landscape of obesity treatments.

While this activity exists in a legally grey area, and there are many such beauty and cosmetics influencers attempting to make quick money from obtaining and selling forms of semaglutide, concerns have grown about the sources of such products, and whether they may place unwitting consumers in danger.

Last month, the Austrian Federal Office for Safety in Health Care (BASG) revealed that a number of people have been hospitalised with seizures and life-threatening hypoglycaemia after using Ozempic jabs that turned out to be fake. The European Medicines Agency recently issued an official warning, stating that counterfeit versions of weight-loss drugs are being sold in the UK and urging the public only to buy such medicines from legal pharmacies.

“Novo Nordisk [a global healthcare company, and maker of Ozempic] has been made aware that some of its products in the UK have been falsified and are not legitimate semaglutide injection products,” a Novo Nordisk spokesman told The Telegraph. “The content of the falsified pens can be entirely different from the genuine medicine and should not be used, as they pose a risk to patient safety. Some falsified Ozempic pens that we have been made aware of can be identified by the scale indicator and the dose selector, which differ from the genuine product.”

“The access to these products is too readily available on social-media platforms, and there doesn’t seem to be enough regulation in this space to counter that,” says Oksana Pyzik, a lecturer at the UCL School of Pharmacy and founder of the organisation Fight the Fakes. “I think there needs to be more education that if you’re not being asked for a prescription, it’s unlikely to be legitimate.”

The hype that has surrounded Ozempic and Wegovy in the past 12 months, fuelled by glowing endorsements from celebrities such as Elon Musk, has sent demand spiralling. As well as giving Novo Nordisk a net worth of $430 billion, it has resulted in global shortages of both drugs, giving rise to a lucrative black market fraught with dangers.

In July, Jennifer Finestone, a Glasgow-based beauty therapist, decided to purchase what she believed to be Saxenda from a private seller on Facebook Marketplace. “I woke up paralysed, with no speech and unable to move, which went on for about an hour,” she wrote on Facebook. “I was referred to A&E and went through various tests, to be told I’d suffered a transient ischaemic attack, or mini stroke. Absolutely terrifying.”

It transpired that the version of Saxenda she had bought was fake. Instead of semaglutide, it contained insulin, a substance that can lead to fatal overdoses. While Finestone ultimately recovered, with no lasting damage, insiders within the weight-loss industry believe it is only a matter of time before someone suffers permanent brain damage – or worse – through taking an illegally sold drug.

“There’s not a lot of these stories emerging yet, because people are quite secretive,” says Jill Smith, a qualified nurse who runs the Platinum Medi Cosmetic Clinic, in West Lothian, Scotland, which is authorised to prescribe medical weight-management solutions. “The suppliers have their home address, so they’re worried about the repercussions of going public. But my fear is that someone is ultimately going to die.”

In an attempt to understand the terrifying ease with which consumers can order products purporting to be legitimate weight-loss drugs from sellers on social media, I took to Instagram. Almost immediately, I was able to enter into negotiations with a man named Kostya.

He offered to send me a month’s supply of Wegovy for £120, including shipping costs. After I had transferred the funds, the agreement suddenly changed and Kostya asked for an additional £150. “We only do two months’ supply at a time,” he wrote. “We need £150 to proceed.” When I refused, he simply blocked me and deleted the account. Similarly-named accounts would later appear.

Seeking evidence that the illegal weight-loss-drug industry encompassed more than just opportunistic scammers, I began messaging a woman called Pippa (she preferred not to disclose her real name for fear of reprisals), who said she had been sold an Ozempic pen that turned out to be fake.

“I wanted a bit of a boost with my weight loss, but when I received the pen in the post, I sent a photo of it to a friend who was already using Ozempic, and she said it didn’t look right,” Pippa wrote. She claims then to have contacted Novo Nordisk, which checked the batch number and confirmed it was a fake.

Pippa said she was ultimately refunded by the seller.

UCL pharmacologists suggested to The Telegraph that, in some cases, online vendors may be getting their hands on semaglutide vials that are intended for research purposes, rather than human consumption. “It’s possible,” says Pyzik. “Usually in that instance, it means it’s been diverted or stolen, and it’s not the same thing as clinical grade. That could be because it’s in its raw form, and so people are putting themselves at risk. This usually happens when there’s a shortage.”

When I first approached the seller, he claimed to have “raw peptide semaglutide kits”, and sent the testimonial of a woman called Shannon who claimed to have lost 4½ stone using them, as well as a video and instruction guide to mixing the ingredients and injecting them. “You mix them up and keep in the fridge,” he wrote via Instagram direct message. “It’s amazing, it cuts your appetite right down.”

Smith described the kits as a likely example of compounding, where unscrupulous pharmacies manufacture a version of semaglutide themselves using the raw ingredients. “It’s not just fake pens, there’s a lot of this compounding as well coming into the UK,” she says. “But you don’t know anything about that pharmacy, what their processes are, if it’s a clean-room [controlled] environment and what the manufacturing is,” she says.

But compounding is on the rise around the world. Earlier this month, the US Food and Drug Administration issued a stark warning, recommending that patients do not use compounded versions of weight-loss drugs.

According to Smith, such pharmacies are increasingly contacting beauty salons directly via cold calls, offering their products for sale, exploiting a grey area in the regulations that currently makes it hard for the authorities to take action. “I’ve received emails from a German company selling their compounded semaglutide, and asking if I would be interested in a partnership,” she says. “The issue is that there are no strict regulations with regards to prescribing semaglutide at the moment. It’s a huge unregulated loophole, and it’s not being policed. It’s like the Wild West.”

The Medicines & Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) told The Telegraph that it is taking steps to identify those unlawfully trading in medicines. “Buying semaglutide, or any medicinal product, from illegally trading online suppliers significantly increases the risk of getting a product which is either falsified or not licensed for use in the UK,” says Dr Alison Cave, MHRA chief safety officer. “Purchasing from illegal suppliers means there are no safeguards to ensure products meet our quality and safety standards, and taking such medicines may put your health at risk.”

Pyzik believes that more pressure needs to be put on social-media companies to crack down on these illicit sales; while Mike Isles, executive director of the Alliance for Safe Online Pharmacy organisation, is pushing for the introduction of “.pharmacy” domain names to make it easier for the general public to find legitimate official online vendors. “It is an undisputed fact that European citizens are put in harm’s way as the sale of falsified and substandard medicines is rampant and growing on the internet,” says Isles.

Smith says she has already heard growing numbers of stories where individuals have bought versions of Ozempic or other semaglutide drugs from beauty therapists, resulting in hospitalisations. “I know one therapist who was giving out this medication, and on speaking to a practitioner at the local hospital, they were seeing an increase in patients being admitted with gastric issues, severe nausea and vomiting, requiring IV fluids,” she says. “The only common denominator they could find was that they had been given these [drug] pens.”

Ultimately, Smith predicts that it will result in tragedy. “I think there are going to be fatalities with this, and it’s just going to be a matter of time because of the completely unregulated nature of the beauty and aesthetics industry,” she says.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-...ght-loss-drugs/
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  #60   ^
Old Tue, Nov-07-23, 03:22
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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I'm pleased the lady got a refund, but these sellers should be in jail.

I also do not understand the mindset of someone who will buy such drugs and take them without considering the risks. Taking the real drug comes with risks, but also, doctor to call.

I've watched videos from Chubbyemu (a doctor) who nearly loses patients because they won't tell the emergency room the dang fool stunt they did.

That's TWO risks.
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