~JEY100 -- thank you. I actually decided to try keto because of the energy boost everyone talks about, it really sounds like something I could use! It's so hard waiting three months to find out if it's going to happen though, especially when I keep binging because I'm so hungry, kicking myself out of ketosis, and having to start over. I'll go check out that section of the forums, thanks!

I didn't even know there was a protocol for using the ketogenic diet to treat CFS! I'll have to check that out too.

Good grief, 91 grams of protein?! I don't know if I'll be able to afford that, I'm stretched to the breaking point as it is. I'll see what I can do though.

Yeah, I eat the same foods pretty much every day, the only thing I change up daily are my dinners, it's just a matter of getting my recipes calculated somewhere.

~walnut -- I didn't know what SIBO was right away but it seems pretty familiar, sounds like the candida overgrowth I suspected I might have.

That's exactly what I'm aiming for here, I hope I can get to where you are now! Hopefully I can do that without having to cut out dairy too, but knowing my luck I probably won't!

Thanks, I hope so too! At this point I don't even want to eat anything different, I don't know how I could add enough carbs into my diet with fruit alone and last time I had a lot of it my skin broke out.

~teaser -- that's interesting, I have intrusive thoughts that can be pretty unpleasant but they've quieted way down since I cut the carbs. It's a sign it's doing something at least!

I'm just trying out my first fat bombs and I'm quite intrigued by them, they're almost identical to the smoothies I've been drinking except I can make them in advance. I haven't tried drinking heavy cream straight, my cats go berserk when the carton comes out. It's the base for my clam chowder though and I'm well supervised when I eat it!

It might be helpful for you to do a short food diary - log a day (or more) of your specific foods, including types and amounts. That might offer some insight into what part of your intake might be holding you back. And don't forget to also log your beverages.

Thanks Susky2 but I've been keeping one for years, it hasn't been much help. All I can see is that I'm eating better, but also eating and weighing more!

If you are gaining , then use the logs to eat a bit less.

I can buy fat from a grocery for about 50 cents a pound. I like the beef fat. Dogs like it too. lol

1 pound of meat is about 100 grams protein.

Chicken is 1-2 $ a pound.

Ms Arielle, I don't understand, how would logs help me stop being so hungry? You're lucky, here chicken is at least $4 a pound, and that's the absolute cheapest, most flavorless junk you can buy. The good stuff is at least twice that.

I guess I wasn't specific enough. My apologies. Could you post your typical day? All I'm seeing in your posts in this thread is generalizations, and I'm concerned that you are only confusing yourself. What are you eating specifically, and when? With this information, perhaps we can help steer you in a clear and positive direction.

Sorry Susky2! Didn't realize you wanted my meal plan. Been really wiped out the last while and my brain's on vacation.

Right now I have a big mug of homemade clam chowder (it has a whipping cream and chicken broth base) for breakfast around 2 pm (I'm a serious night owl!), 2 hardboiled eggs and cheese around 6:30 pm, and dinner at 11 pm.

I hate cooking so I make my own frozen dinners, my formula is 3 lbs marinated meat (4 meals are chicken, 1 is pork, 1 is salmon, 1 is beef) and 3 bags frozen vegetables mixed together, divided into 8 portions.

Since supper always leaves me hungry I've been having smoothies with them. They're about 100 ml of unsweetened, canned coconut milk thinned with water, cocoa powder, and 1/4 avocado. I plan to replace the smoothies with fat bombs and have peppermint tea with supper instead.

Lastly, I have a second smoothie about an hour before I go to bed, which is the same as the first one except I throw in almond butter to get some protein in there. Since I'm doing away with smoothies I'm not sure what to do there -- I'll probably have another fat bomb, but if I really do need more protein that's the most obvious meal to do it with.

I hope that helps?

Wow. that is pricey chicken. The benefit of the flavorless junk is that you can season it to any flavor you like.

I see you listed a meal 1 hour before you go to sleep because you are hungry. Do you add extra fat to your 6:30 meal? Eating a fat bomb might be just right.

The price I pay for being Canadian, food is super expensive up here! That's true I suppose, though when I was able to grab chicken thighs on sale that made a lot more difference flavor wise than any marinade I ever tried.

I did try fat bombs actually, but they didn't really help. I thew more clams into my clam chowder and that has helped my hunger, at least for the first few days that I've been eating the new batch. The problem is when I eat supper my hunger comes roaring back, I keep making them bigger but it doesn't help.

Even more interesting, I was out today and instead of those two pitiful eggs, I had a nice big steak with a garden salad and when I finished I was hungrier than I was when I started eating. I'm starting to wonder if the vegetables are making me hungry? They're the only thing I'm eating these days with any significant amount of carbs in them.

Hi, TyleRoad. I think it is possible that your body produces more insulin than it needs to metabolize the meal, which then lowers the blood sugar, and makes one feel hungry. It can take some deliberate planning and gumption to retrain that insulin production.

If I eat too much protein at a meal, especially beef, I get an appetite for more food, and sometimes a strong desire for carbs/sweets. That is what an insulin spurt does.

The only way I've found to get around this, is to eat small meals, evenly spaced.

Dr. Richard Bernstein's Laws of Small Numbers explains how keeping meal amounts, and PFC amounts, and the timing constant, keeps the blood sugar stable. Stable blood sugar means less hunger and feeling better.

Hope this helps.

SilverEm, that really does sound like what's going on here, and it might even explain why my blood sugar levels have been rising. I think it's the A1C that shows long term / average blood sugar levels, mine started out in the hypoglycemic range and is in the normal range now. Fewer carbs, fewer insulin overreactions! (My thyroid function has improved drastically too.)

So perhaps I should try to make my dinners smaller to see if that helps? I was eating 2 lbs of meat, 2 bags frozen veggies split into 8 portions for my dinners for a long time and bumped up the portion sizes when I was ravenous from my first attempt at the ketogenic diet. It didn't help but when I felt like I was starving I was hardly about to cook smaller dinners so I just rolled with it!

That is pretty helpful, thank you! Of course I can't do a thing about my frozen dinners until I use them all up, I still have a month worth in the freezer, but that just gives me time to do more research!

Hi, TyleRoad. Those of us who are post-obese, reduced-obese, have different metabolisms than those who were never obese, or who are still obese.

Keeping the blood sugar stable is vital.

I have 15-20g/PRO for breakfast, and about 5g/CHO. Usually a few marinated vegs. Some cream in my tea, and 1-2 Tablespoons of butter with the eggs/meat/fish. I use marinated vegs, as the vinegar at the end of a meal cuts right through that insulin-spurt-caused desire for more food or sweets, for me.

Lunch is the same amounts.

Supper is less protein, usually 12g/PRO. Same amount of FAT. A bit more carbs.

I average 50-60P: with approx. 30C, and the fat varies some. Fat is the only thing to vary, really,--as it causes the least amount of blood sugar change. (Ten percent of fat can be made into blood sugar, through the glycerol.)

About half of protein can be broken down into sugar, through gluconeogenesis.

That is why Dr. Bernstein says to reduce protein, if blood sugar is still too high. (With carbs being constant at 30g/day.)

Dr. Bernstein recommends, as a general rule, 6 grams of carbs for breakfast, and 12 for lunch, then, 12 for supper. I do better with smaller amounts of carbs at a time.

It does take some experimenting. Weighing the food, for constant amounts, really does help keep the blood sugar stable.

Also, anything with volume, stimulate nerve endings in the intestines, signaling hormonal responses, which can raise blood sugar. (Chinese restaurant effect. No such thing as a free food, etc. A head of lettuce can raise blood sugar, etc.)

Abnormal glucose regulation requires attentive measures.

I wish you success.

Thanks for the additional info. I have a few thoughts based on what you provided.

First: Beware hidden carbs. Clams are good, but they do have more carbs by weight than you might realize. Unsweetened coconut milk, too. Consider switching to broth or boullion combined with heavy cream. The added fat will help balance out any insulin response you might be experiencing. You mention that you are marinating meat. What are you using for the marinade? Also, the vegetables. They're not all created equal. What are you having there?

Second: I'm worried that you're not eating enough. I know it sounds counterproductive, but starving yourself causes more problems than it helps. We're conditioned to think in terms of the old calorie-in-calorie-out system, but that's way oversimplified, and it doesn't take into account the metabolic processes you need to start using fat stores in your body. You need to enable the fat adaptation (also called induction) and then feed the cycle with proper amounts of healty fat in your food.

Third: Along with the feeding the energy cycle with fat, getting plenty of protein is important. While too much is arguably problematic, getting a solid basis of protein in your meals helps create satiety - the feeling that you've had enough to eat. Imagine sitting down to a huge steak meal with no sides. It sounds delicious, right? But eventually you'll kind of get tired of that steak. That's the satiety part kicking in.

Fourth: This kind of ties in with the hidden carb thing, but consider the timing of your meals. Try to space meals no farther apart than about 5 hours, and try to not eat shortly before bed. It's more true about not eating before bedtime with a carb-heavy diet, but there is still applicability in a low-carb plan, because when your body shuts down in a sleep mode, it tends to want to add to your energy stores (adipose tissue...or body fat) rather than burning what you're taking in.

Fifth: Push the water intake. You didn't mention how much you are drinking, and getting plenty of water flowing (in and out) is vital.

Sixth: I love the concept of fat bombs, but consider that they are an occasional treat, or a way to jumpstart or supplement the metabolization of fat in your diet. I don't think they should be used on a regular basis, though, as they encourage gratification through treats, the opposite of what many of use are trying to curb in our eating habits.

Finally - and this is the difficult part - consider that while the basic science of this WOE is sound, there is no absolutely perfect application for everybody. Each person's body has its own small variation, and there is definitely a challenge is learning what does and doesn't work for you. Have patience, make small changes, one at a time, to determine what's best for you. If you lose your way and get confused, don't start making lots of wild changes. Dial back to the basics and start again from there. It's a long road, but it will work for you.

Oh...and one other thing. Some hunger is to be expected, but if you are starving, eat something on the preferred list of foods. As you become adapted to this WOE, you will probably find that you won't need as much at each meal...but you should never feel like you are starving.