You might see an example of the diversity of opinions on this board if me and Martin get into a big fight over what I just said about all-meat diets.

Nah, I don't think it's gonna help the guy any. It sounds like he's got a real problem, he needs help, some answers. I wasn't trying to suggest something long, just some tests to figure things out, a week of just meat and water is one such test, methodology, see what I mean? I don't know what he's got, not enough info, all I can do is help him figure it out.

Taking you at face value, Konflict, I'm curious what you could have changed so drastically that would have caused such dire symptoms in you.

How did you eat before eating Low Carb? What foods have you subtracted? What foods have you added that were not part of your previous diet?

All meat or not, Martin is exactly right that Low Carb is all about Real Food. You do not need whey protein - you can get plenty of protein by eating 10-16 ounces of meat and/or fish per day. What were trying to accomplish by eating whey protein - is that part of a body building program?

Are you making progress getting an appointment with an endo? Surely your doctor is puzzled by your symptoms and would also like to know more. Do keep us updated when you see an expert.

Whey protein is highly insulinogenic, like other processed foods, and affects some people more than others. I can't touch it without getting hungry & craving within an hour. So I eat real food and routinely go 8 hrs without feeling hungry.

I had exactly the same reaction when I tried protein powder, Deirdre. Ugh, it made me feel anxious, then depressed. And hungry. Plus it doesn't even taste good.

You may have hit on the source of Konflict's problem.

I've been having protein powder on and off for 10 plus years, and mainly I'd take it just to fuel my body back after a workout. The whey protein only made up about 1/25 of my total calories in the day. I was trying to eat a lot of protein so I would keep my muscle and not lose it when going low carb.

But my diet changed pretty drastic, before I was eating a lot of whole wheat, fruits, grains....I basically stopped all that when I starte the diet.

Let's look at whey protein in detail, just to see how much value it really has.

1/25 of total calories per day

Think about that for a moment. Could that tiny amount do anything significant for you, in a day, in a month, in a year, in a decade? Could you get the same amount from another source, like fresh meat for example? Between whey and some other source (choose the source as you wish), which one is superior in your opinion? Does whey protein on its own provide everything needed to digest, absorb, and metabolize the protein itself, i.e. vitamins, minerals, fatty acids? If not, then whey protein requires supplements for these other elements. Could these elements be provided by other protein sources, like fresh meat for example? Finally, is whey protein genuine food, does it nourish you?

I realize that you believe whey protein is good to recover from a workout, but think about that for a moment. Does a workout somehow change the nature of your body, so that you need whey protein specifically to recover, and not some genuine food instead? Think about any other species that does workout, well not really, they just hunt, eat, rest, repeat. Do they require anything special after exertion, other than eat what they caught? Why would humans require anything special, other than genuine food, for the same purpose?

These are all reasonable questions, I'm not sure I have all the answers. Have you read any experimental studies on whey protein with regards to post-workout recovery? I have, I forgot all of them. I see no point in arguing in favor of whey protein when I believe there are superior sources of protein, for the protein itself, and for all other essential elements as well, all of which is required to recover from a workout, or from any other activity.

Consider a growing child. He grows bigger through the years due to growth hormone. It's as if he was working out all the time, therefore it's as if he needed to recover all the time from the constant workouts. Does this child need whey protein, or does he need genuine food? The idea here is that when we lift heavy weights for example, we stress the muscles, they then grow as a result of this stress. A growing child, well, grows. The cause of this growth is the same for both the adult after a workout, and a growing child - growth hormone. There is no difference, the physiological requirements for growth are the same, the cause is the same, the materials required for this growth is the same, the mechanisms for growth are the same. What is the rationale for whey protein at any point for anybody for any purpose?

We could do the same analysis for carbs, because we believe carbs are good for post-workout recovery. The first thing we should know about carbs in this context is that hyperglycemia inhibits growth hormone. All other arguments become moot, because once we inhibit growth hormone, we basically shut down the entire recovery process.

One thing about protein specifically, it is not used for energy. Ever. There is no plausible mechanism for protein to be used for energy at any time whatsoever. It is used for structure, enzymes and hormones. When we eat protein, it stimulates insulin. Once insulin goes up, all kinds of things happen.

Insulin:
Inhibits gluconeogenesis - no new glucose is created, therefore no protein is used for this
Inhibits glycogenolysis - no stored glucose is released, therefore protein does not cause blood glucose to rise

Stimulates proteosynthesis - ingested protein (actually, the amino acids from that protein) goes straight to make new protein
Inhibits proteolysis - existing protein is prevented from being broken down

We could argue that whey protein is good on its own because of the above, however it's important to keep in mind that protein synthesis requires all kinds of other elements that are not contained in whey protein, therefore whey protein on its own does very little for muscle growth, or for any other tissue.

Ok but I doubt whey is the root of this issue.....I still don't get how no one here is acknowledging that a keto diet can cause metabolic issues, especially since I already have a family history of pituitary issues (part of the HPA axis which can be damaged by not enough carbs).

Not looking for a huge debate again. I guess the only answer is to find a legit endo or possible a neuro endocrinologist to help. I have medi-cal so it's hard getting any dr to write me a referral for anything.

"...I still don't get how no one here is acknowledging that a keto diet can cause metabolic issues."

My guess is you are trying to sample the wrong group for knowledge. Folks that it may have backfired on would be gone, that's my guess at least. You might try drilling down to find lost articles with google. Do you know how to do searches for a specific website? If not go here:

https://www.google.com/advanced_search

If you tailor your searches tightly you might find some good stuff buried and long forgotten by this current active group (which is actually not that many people). Otherwise your line of questioning and repeated exclamations of disbelief are starting to remind me of this



I wish you the best in finding what's broken with you. It may well be a keto diet that is causing harm. Try something else for a while and perhaps track all of your food intake. Hopefully then next doc will have more opinions for you.

I've come across a few good sites that have elimination protocols, I think was ones called something 30...

Whole 30 is what you're thinking of Thud. Excellent suggestion for getting to the root of food intolerances.

Perhaps there are people for whom low carb causes problems, but for many of them, it is probably a function of chronic underfeeding, rather than chronic lack of sugar and grains (for which the MDR is zero). Don't you think it is unlikely that you will find them on a site that supports eating low carb? Or are you trying to convince us that because you have had problems which you attribute to eating low carb that we are risking similar problems?

Again, nothing we are saying makes much difference. A better strategy would be to examine YOUR BODY with the help of your medical team to find the source of your problems, which may or may not be related to your current (or recently past) food intake. I assume you've added more carbs since your experiments with low carb have been so problematic for you? If you are seeing no improvement, it does not make sense that low carb caused the problems.

I've been watching but not commenting. I do think that ketogenic ultra-low carb can work not so well with the HPA axis from my personal experience.

But it would be the last thing I would look at, not the first, after going low carb.

This to me says a rocky transition for 4++ weeks. Especially if you are a person with adrenaline/cortisol issues. That is a huge change. I think of it like barreling down the highway and suddenly throwing your car in reverse (switching fuels to fat-based).

Remembering that raised insulin means lessened fat-burning. Especially for someone with a heightened fight-flight-freeze HPA situation. your body has been trained for sugar burning. I think of fat burning and sugar burning like football squads - offense and defense are not on the field at the same time although they are both part of the team. If sugar burning is in play, fat burning is on the sidelines.

First I would look at your vitamin and mineral situation, and electrolytes, from the years of high carb. Iodine, D, etc. You can order them online and not wait for medi-cal if you can find the money.

I would look at how much protein, fat, and carb grams you are eating. If you are eating a ton of protein, weirdly that will slow down your conversion to fat-burning. Because protein has an insulin effect although much less than carbs. But because protein raises insulin, it could stop fat burning and require sugar-burning until the protein is dealt with. Keeping you in sugar burning mode.

You may end up having to go with Functional Medicine doctors and pay out of pocket.

I'm having issues with healthcare myself. I was keto for over a year and a half and lost all my weight doing it, but about 6 months in I started getting chronic fatigue, then severe symptoms of Sjogren's Syndrome (dry body disease). I had to leave off ketosis, as it makes the symptoms worse. I'm still low-carb (100-120g but with a lot of veggie fiber so about 75g net carbs) and am still experiencing them, but it's the difference between apocalyptic-hell and exhausting-but-manageable. It's highly possible that over-exercise caused my issue, or some time-bomb sleeping in my DNA that was coded to wake up at that moment. So I don't blame the ketogenic diet, until I actually have evidence, which I don't have, as returning to higher carbs has not improved it. Perhaps going even higher on carbs would be worth experimenting, but since I no longer like starchy foods all that much, I'm not really interested in trying that anytime soon. And the only fruits I really like are apples and grapes, but I don't like them enough to keep my carb count up that high.

I'm still waiting on evidence to confirm actual Sjogren's, or something else masquerading as Sjogren's-like symptoms. I'm under the care of a GP for now. I am what they call under-insured. I pay a hefty premium and still have a $7000 deductible. I'm pretty sure I'll meet that this year...(there goes our savings) and I'm pretty sure this poor GP I'm seeing will be transferring me before too long to the next town over. But I am sure I'm probably going to have to test cortisol and DHEA myself. There are online labs that will order it for you and send you a kit. (Edit: I see that Seejay has already mentioned ordering labs. )

Anyway, OP, I hope you are able to find someone who is willing to do some digging to help you. I've been dealing with this for over a year and haven't slept anywhere near enough during that time so I'm always running on fumes. I have 4 kids to homeschool, and I'm definitely not doing the best job. So I definitely relate to your situation.

I feel for you, Jess - I had a mystery illness for YEARS and had to diagnose it myself.

Here's a nutritional connect that might help:

Niacin and Vitamin C Deficiency in Sjogren's Syndrome: The Forgotten Diagnosis

In the War Zone, I am talking about my own Niacin Therapy.

I've had to diagnose and treat my 12-year-old son since he was 5 already, so having to find my own answers isn't all that surprising for me.

Regarding doctors and getting them to investigate things: GOOD GRIEF it's like pulling teeth!

I had been taking about 3-4 g of C daily, but stopped taking them for 2 weeks to see how labs would look without it. I have been a little more tired since I stopped. I stopped taking EVERYTHING though so it's hard to pinpoint which is what. And I've been following the Niacin thread. It's something to look into once I see what all he ordered. He's going to find out he has to be a lot more transparent with me. I didn't harass him much about which tests he ordered. I know one was a Sjogren's/autoimmune panel. So I've finally gotten someone to at least do that! I mentioned that we should look at imbalances in nutrients and hormones. I have a feeling that's going to be another round of bloodwork because he didn't check it this time (just my guess) even though I suggested it strongly. I let him take the lead. This time. Since we just met and all. I'm going to be a pain in the neck. I predict he's going to be singing that Taylor Swift song soon. "I knew you were trouble when you walked in..."

The point is the question everything, from every angle.

When you change your diet to a significant degree, it will affect your hormones. For example, you went from your previous diet to a low-carb diet. Then, you went from that back to a balanced diet. Each time you changed your diet significantly, it affected your hormones. There's only a few ways to change a diet in a significant degree.

From low to high carb, or reverse
From low to high fat, or reverse
From some meat to no meat, or reverse
From some food to no food, or reverse
From fake food to genuine food, or reverse

The reasons for the above is like this. Carbs are the primary culprit for obesity, and all other diseases of civilization, i.e. heart disease, neurological disorders, etc. Fat is necessary for a bunch of things from hormones to cholesterol to energy and more. Meat contains essential elements not found anywhere else. Genuine food nourish us, fake food does not. Fasting is the total absence of food, this allows the body to re-establish normalcy. Any other change in diet is insignificant by comparison. Having said that, every little change adds up to a big change.

I want to acknowledge that a keto diet can cause metabolic issues, but the diet you ate for a month isn't actually keto. More specifically, it's a lot of fake food, with a tiny bit of genuine food mixed in. It's possible that this diet caused the problems, but even that is unlikely. It's more likely that you were already sick, but didn't notice until you changed your diet to a significant degree - whatever disease you had took over and is now more active.

Remember, you didn't start out perfectly healthy.

Let me tell you my story. I got fat by eating lots of carbs. I got leaner by eating less, but hit a plateau. Then I started eating only meat for a while and started losing fat again, until I got to 75kg, down from 100kg. At that point and for about a year, I was in perfect health. This was a direct result of eating only meat, and later mostly meat, for that whole year. At some point, during a clinical trial where I was a volunteer, I got sick, but didn't know it yet. Soon after, my health started to decline rapidly. I kept the diet, yet my health continued to decline. The cause of the decline could not be the previous diet - it returned me to good health, but could not prevent this decline.

The particular drug I took during that clinical trial is an immuno-suppressant. This means either of two things. I got some infection during the trial, or an existing infection took over during the trial. Either way, I cannot blame the diet for any of it. If anything, the diet allowed me to maintain better health than otherwise. Imagine if I'd been eating a crap diet during that time, surely I'd have gotten much sicker, much quicker. This was back in 2009, my health has not returned, I'm still looking for a solution, I still don't know what I got, but I have eliminated a whole bunch of possible causes by doing a multitude of experiments on myself. During that time, I have developed quite a few hypotheses, one of which literally explains and predicts metabolism specifically for the liver, ketogenesis, glycogenolysis, and insulin. I didn't just sit idle while time went by.

The point is that the posts I made in this thread, trying to make you question your own experience, are derived from my own experience. I had to question everything from every angle. You will have to do the same, because it's obvious that you have a lot of preconceptions, most of which are completely wrong from my point of view. More appropriately, you barely know the subject.

Think about it. It's your health. Take it seriously.