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  #46   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 05:40
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
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Posts: 832
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/308/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 55%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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So I've read about a third of the book. I agree with others; love the fact everything is organized and flows in a logical fashion.

I did have one major question and maybe the book "answers" this beyond what I've read. He points to the outcome of the starvation experiments and also the caloric restrictions as proving to be bad for our metabolism as the body adjusts downward to the reduced calories. The net effect (for me at least) of a 23:1 fast, or even LCHF (for me, anyway) is calorie reduction. Most days that I've kept track, my total calories consumed are about 1400-1500, which is below the 1800 or so that he refers to as affecting people's metabolism (sorry, don't have a page reference handy). I literally cannot eat more. Is my metabolism doomed? Or, am I reading that the reduced calorie is only an issue if you are "hungry" and not eating? Am I missing or misinterpreting something?
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  #47   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 06:03
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 3,372
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 170/136/130 Female 62 inches
BF:22%
Progress: 85%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
...The net effect (for me at least) of a 23:1 fast, or even LCHF (for me, anyway) is calorie reduction. ..... I literally cannot eat more. Is my metabolism doomed? Or, am I reading that the reduced calorie is only an issue if you are "hungry" and not eating? Am I missing or misinterpreting something?
This is EXACTLY my experience. I don't know what to do to combat the lowering body temp. I'm monitoring mine, along with BG and body weight. On rising, body temp is pretty consistently 95 F and after my walk, it falls to 94 F. I never get above 97 any more.
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 07:21
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thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,548
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/198/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 42%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
...caloric restrictions as proving to be bad for our metabolism as the body adjusts downward to the reduced calories?

Marvin, do you do 23:1 every day or consecutive days?
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 07:36
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teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 12,347
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/157.2/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Ontario
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I haven't read the book yet--but one thing Fung writes about that I'm not that sure of is the difference in the effect on metabolic rate between fasting and low calorie dieting. I think it's reasonable to suspect that there's an advantage, if you look at some of the circadian rhythm studies he wrote about, or at Ludwig's study where metabolic rate was higher in maintenance on a ketogenic diet than on a higher carb diet--because fasting is closer to doing a ketogenic diet than it is to a high fat diet, obviously. But the Minnesota starvation study involved getting participants downright skeletal, to the point where they didn't have sufficient bodyfat stores to support a reasonable metabolism--if their metabolism hadn't decreased to the extent that they did, on the calories they were eating, they would have died. To be fair, you'd have to compare these guys to themselves if they'd been exposed to an inappropriately long fast, to the point of emaciation--in which case, ideally there would be a decrease in metabolism, because its failure would be counter-survival.

NEMarvin--I wouldn't worry, as long as you're still losing significant amounts of body fat. 1400-1500 calories a day and a long stall for a guy your height would imply a very sluggish metabolism, but if you're getting appreciable calories from your fat stores, that's okay. My original experience with low carb was that at my heaviest weight, appetite greatly decreased on low carb--but then as I lost weight, appetite returned again.

Dr. Fung talks about people intermittent fasting, and then only experiencing a 15 percent increase in appetite on their feeding days. This isn't my experience at all--but then I suspect that it might have been when I was at my highest weight. I think there's a reason why very young, very lean men who are trying to get ripped and busy telling people who aren't any of these things how to lose body fat insist that intentional calorie restriction is key--they're already at an ideal body weight, and from there, getting ripped necessitates going past the body's natural mechanisms.

I wouldn't worry about the lowered appetite by itself--unless there's something else going on, like low energy to go about the day's activities, lack of weight loss reasonable to your calorie intake, etc.

I think some of the decrease in metabolism that can be expected with weight loss is sort of relative. When I get down below 160--certainly my metabolic rate is likely lower than it was at 190, on any given diet. But I have a bit more get up and go, I'm more likely to spontaneously break in to a run if I go out for a walk, etc. This is something that's not really captured, looking at metabolic rates on a graph.
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 07:55
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 4,548
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/198/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
...I think some of the decrease in metabolism that can be expected with weight loss is sort of relative. When I get down below 160--certainly my metabolic rate is likely lower than it was at 190, on any given diet. But I have a bit more get up and go, I'm more likely to spontaneously break in to a run if I go out for a walk, etc. This is something that's not really captured, looking at metabolic rates on a graph.

Thanks for the whole post teaser. Your quote above really struck a note with something that I experienced yesterday when walking to work. I was walking up a long incline and a sudden urge and thought overwhelmed me. It said, "RUN".

It wasn't the "RUN, You are in danger!" kind of thing. It was the kind of urge I use to get as a kid. You see it all the time out in the wild. Kids spontaneously erupting into activity and parents foolishly trying to tell them to "calm the hell down!". I'm not sure why I got this urge, it's been a while. I am currently fasting and at the lowest body weight I've been at in 10 years. Who knows what it is but I like it!
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 12:11
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,156
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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My walks have become walk/runs particularly during a fasting period. Energy is high, and I want to burn it. I have yet to detect a slowing of my metabolism, as I'm typically most active when I'm fasting. I do intense mat workouts twice a week for over an hour each session, and I'm at my best during a fast and can really ramp it up on the second or third day of a fast. Due to this "phenomenon", I try to plan my fasting periods to cover these intense sessions. I may eat fewer total calories over a week when I'm fasting, but have no lack of energy or mental clarity that would indicate a lower metabolic rate.

Last edited by GRB5111 : Fri, Mar-11-16 at 17:00.
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 13:54
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SilverTgr SilverTgr is offline
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Posts: 9
 
Plan: LC/HF
Stats: 404/346/250 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 38%
Location: Canada
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I have finished the book and I am quite interested in testing his theory. I already eat LCHF, but my "set point" seems to have settled at a much higher point than it should. My only worry is any health concerns regarding fasting, there apparently have not been a lot of studies done.
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 14:12
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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My book just arrived, so I haven't read much yet, but one of the key differences between eating, say 1000 calories in one meal (23:1 IFing) versus under-eating all day (calorie restriction) is that fasting boosts hGH production (see https://intensivedietarymanagement....siology-part-3/) and lipolysis (part-4) and reduces insulin secretion. In my n=1 experiences, undereating slowed my metabolism, whereas IFing (esp with >20 hr fasts) increased my energy and metabolism. A mere look in the mirror shows the difference. On low calorie diets my face looks pale and grey, when IFing it is rosy.
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  #54   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 17:05
kirkor kirkor is offline
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Posts: 188
 
Plan: IF dairy-free keto ish
Stats: 175/175/170 Male 71
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Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I think there's a reason why very young, very lean men who are trying to get ripped and busy telling people who aren't any of these things how to lose body fat insist that intentional calorie restriction is key--they're already at an ideal body weight, and from there, getting ripped necessitates going past the body's natural mechanisms.


It's a pretty exciting time for IF: we've got the historical clinical stuff, we've got the Martin Berkhan LeanGains crew, the Fung/Perlmutter/diabetes perspective, the LCHF/keto people, the obese/weight loss folks, the ancestral/seasonal eating pattern, etc etc.
Lots of confluence!
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  #55   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 18:42
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 832
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/308/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 55%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Marvin, do you do 23:1 every day or consecutive days?


Right now I'm not fasting at all. Stopped due to feeling sick and started losing faster after that so I haven't restarted. I do miss the odd meal, but nothing intentional in plan. When I do 23:1 I do alternate days.

I wasn't even really asking relative to fasting. I was really more concerned that 1500 o a feeding day might be too little.
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  #56   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 18:49
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 832
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/308/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 55%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser

NEMarvin--I wouldn't worry, as long as you're still losing significant amounts of body fat. 1400-1500 calories a day and a long stall for a guy your height would imply a very sluggish metabolism, but if you're getting appreciable calories from your fat stores, that's okay. My original experience with low carb was that at my heaviest weight, appetite greatly decreased on low carb--but then as I lost weight, appetite returned again.



I wouldn't worry about the lowered appetite by itself--unless there's something else going on, like low energy to go about the day's activities, lack of weight loss reasonable to your calorie intake, etc.



I still have significant fat to burn...if that "makes up" for any shortfall so that the body doesn't think it's being starved. That actually makes sense. It could be also that the slowing metabolism occurs because one is not fat adapted? So a low cal, low fat diet would never force the switchover but would instead say "I'm starving!" Interesting stuff.....

I've certainly been exercising thoroughly in last week. Im planning on adding some "running" as I hope to do a 5k at some point. Also planning on regular weight training as well. That should help?
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  #57   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 20:41
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,548
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/198/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 42%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
Right now I'm not fasting at all. Stopped due to feeling sick and started losing faster after that so I haven't restarted. I do miss the odd meal, but nothing intentional in plan. When I do 23:1 I do alternate days.

I wasn't even really asking relative to fasting. I was really more concerned that 1500 o a feeding day might be too little.

Gotcha. I don't really know the answer but my gut answer to myself would be if I wasn't thinking about food all the time and not ravenous it would be fine. I should check the calories in my "normal" meals. I'll do that next week for one day. I'm guessing it will be above 2500, easy, but I'll probably way off
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  #58   ^
Old Fri, Mar-11-16, 22:22
drdog98 drdog98 is offline
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Posts: 3
 
Plan: Deciding
Stats: 240/240/200 Male 73.2
BF:
Progress:
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I have not read this latest book yet. I actually only discovered Dr. Fung through my dad a couple of weeks back, which is also how I also found threads about his theory here (plus a lot of great info on how to proceed). The reason why my dad suggested this is because he knew I had been LCHF for about 2 months and had not dropped a single pound, plus my BS did not want to go below the 155-210 range. I was so desperate that I went into obsessive mode the last month tracking all my macros to make sure I was within the right ranges. I even resorted to Atkins 72 and still, no progress. So since I was at my wits end, I figured what do I have to lose and decided to go this route.

I kept my diet the same, but stopped obsessively charting every single detail because that was driving me crazy. Then I included intermittent fasting (32hrs x3 days a week). In the first couple of days not much changed, but then I noticed my BS started to slowly go down. Started dropping faster by day 5. My morning fasting BS has been 137 or less the last 3 days and it has actually stabilized at around 101 to 110 most of the day. I am finishing up a fast day right now and its is currently at 84. So keeping my diet the same and making this one little change has caused my BS to plummet to healthier levels and for the first time in months I have started losing weight. The one side effect I have noticed for me is that my mouth feels much dryer and I am thirsty. Normally I would say I was dehydrated, but I am not and I drink around 170 to 185 ounces of water per day. So not sure why this is happening.

Favorite thing about fast days: You are allowed bone broth and spices! I make homemade beef bone broth (so easy, but takes a couple of days) in the crockpot and then season it the exact same way I season my chili. I typically have the broth once or twice a day if I need it. The 8oz cup of chili fat is so filling and it really makes my tastebuds happy.

Last edited by drdog98 : Fri, Mar-11-16 at 22:43.
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  #59   ^
Old Sat, Mar-12-16, 03:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,073
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Welcome drdog,
Glad that you found this fasting thread...it appears you have got a fasting plan that works for you and are doing well. good info you shared. Reminded me today is farmer's market and I need some bones

As for not losing initially on LCHF, are you on any medication that interfere with weight loss? insulin being a real problem, but there are others. http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=453311 And if you were playing with macros from the various Keto boards, some of their popular advice goes overboard on "adding fat", depending on your age and activity levels, slugging down BPC does not allow your body to burn its own fats.

Kirkor, add the autophagy/adjuvant cancer treatment crowd too.Can A 3-Day Fast Reset Your Immune System? http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevens...m/#7146bef7337f And Dr Seyfried and others suggest a Fast then Keto before chemo for some cancers. Still fringey though, I still don't talk about it yesterday saw my dermo doc for cancer check...said I eat Paleo (NO grains) for five years that cured my ezcema..and she was all happy, said how good Paleo is for general health! I don't mention Atkins or Fasting. As Dr Eades said in that new interview...to be accepted the diet needs a "good narrative" and Paleo has that, and fasting to me is part of Paleo...the story that our ancestors or even grandparents did not eat 3 meals and 3 snacks, times of feast and famine, works well.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Mar-12-16 at 03:38.
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  #60   ^
Old Sat, Mar-12-16, 06:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,347
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/157.2/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Ontario
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I'd also throw in the vegan fasters, they sort of got in on the ground floor--just don't let them convince you that orange juice is the best way to break the fast.

I try to avoid the coffee enema crowd, though.
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