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  #31   ^
Old Thu, Jul-09-15, 08:08
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I like fully cooked, or almost raw for beef. A little bit of browning goes a long way for flavour.

There's supposed to be less risk of trichinosis with "conventionally" raised pork vs. pastured. Pigs with a chance to eat carrion=greater chance of trichinosis.
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  #32   ^
Old Thu, Jul-09-15, 12:36
Turtle2003's Avatar
Turtle2003 Turtle2003 is offline
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Posts: 1,449
 
Plan: Atkins, Newcastle
Stats: 260/221.8/165 Female 5'3"
BF:Highest weight 260
Progress: 40%
Location: Northern California
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I've seen posts by some long term zero-carbers who say that they are not in ketosis, measured in urine or in blood, though they eat virtually no carbs. This makes me wonder if their bodies have become so proficient in gluconeogenesis that they derive all glucose needs by converting some of their protein intake, with no ketones required. (This would also explain why the Inuit might not have lived their lives in a constant state of ketosis with no need for magical carbs being present in meat and blubber)

I've also read some study (sorry, can't find the reference at the moment) where ketones added to a not very low carb diet had an effect on cancer cells just like a low carb diet with ketosis. So perhaps it's the ketones affecting malignant cells and not just the lack of glucose to fuel them?`

Given the above, does anyone know if there is research indicating whether it is the low glucose or the presence of ketones that can sometimes put cancer into remission? Or perhaps both?
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  #33   ^
Old Thu, Jul-09-15, 13:18
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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It's hard to do the low glucose without the high ketones. I guess that'd be called a coma.

There have been studies with exogenous ketones done by Dom D'Agostino's group.

Quote:
Ketone supplementation decreases tumor cell viability and prolongs survival of mice with metastatic cancer.
Poff AM1, Ari C, Arnold P, Seyfried TN, D'Agostino DP.
Author information
Abstract
Cancer cells express an abnormal metabolism characterized by increased glucose consumption owing to genetic mutations and mitochondrial dysfunction. Previous studies indicate that unlike healthy tissues, cancer cells are unable to effectively use ketone bodies for energy. Furthermore, ketones inhibit the proliferation and viability of cultured tumor cells. As the Warburg effect is especially prominent in metastatic cells, we hypothesized that dietary ketone supplementation would inhibit metastatic cancer progression in vivo. Proliferation and viability were measured in the highly metastatic VM-M3 cells cultured in the presence and absence of β-hydroxybutyrate (βHB). Adult male inbred VM mice were implanted subcutaneously with firefly luciferase-tagged syngeneic VM-M3 cells. Mice were fed a standard diet supplemented with either 1,3-butanediol (BD) or a ketone ester (KE), which are metabolized to the ketone bodies βHB and acetoacetate. Tumor growth was monitored by in vivo bioluminescent imaging. Survival time, tumor growth rate, blood glucose, blood βHB and body weight were measured throughout the survival study. Ketone supplementation decreased proliferation and viability of the VM-M3 cells grown in vitro, even in the presence of high glucose. Dietary ketone supplementation with BD and KE prolonged survival in VM-M3 mice with systemic metastatic cancer by 51 and 69%, respectively (p < 0.05). Ketone administration elicited anticancer effects in vitro and in vivo independent of glucose levels or calorie restriction. The use of supplemental ketone precursors as a cancer treatment should be further investigated in animal models to determine potential for future clinical use.


Something I've found interesting lately is how ketones participate in the Krebs cycle. There's an enzyme that converts succinyl-CoA to succinate. To convert acetoacetate back to acetyl-CoA for oxidation in the cycle, an alternate pathway is involved. This produces acetyl-Coa and succinate from the ketone and succinyl-CoA, bypassing that other enzyme. That makes it a possible work-around if mitochondrial respiration were compromised somewhere around that neighbourhood.

A lot of amino acids are synthesized from krebs cycle intermediates, with an added amine group, so you can see how subverting some portions of the krebs cycle could feed into cancer growth.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235292/

edited to add link.
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  #34   ^
Old Thu, Jul-09-15, 14:16
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Another thing with the exogenous ketones. Ketones present would mean less demand for glucose by the brain, heart etc. So while blood glucose might not be reduced, whole body demand for glucose could be reduced. A blood glucose of 90 could reflect a massive flux of glucose in and out of the blood, lots of glucose to be delivered to cancer cells, or a very sparse glucose flux.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7_e7i0pRk

Dr. D Agostino has a recent talk online I just noticed today.
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  #35   ^
Old Fri, Sep-25-15, 11:58
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
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Here is a two-hour interview with Andrew Scarborough:

https://youtu.be/Eoebo83zUNs
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  #36   ^
Old Fri, Sep-25-15, 18:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Just spotted this in ScienceDaily.

Quote:
Antidepressants plus blood thinners cause brain cancer cells to eat themselves in mice

Scientists have been exploring the connection between tricyclic antidepressants and brain cancer since the early 2000s. There's some evidence that the drugs can lower one's risk for developing aggressive glioblastomas, but when given to patients after diagnosis in a small clinical trial, the antidepressants showed no effect as a treatment.

In a study appearing in Cancer Cell on September 24, Swiss researchers find that antidepressants work against brain cancer by excessively increasing tumor autophagy (a process that causes the Cancer Cells to eat themselves). The scientists next combined the antidepressants with blood thinners--also known to increase autophagy--as a treatment for mice with the first stages of human glioblastoma. Mouse lifespan doubled with the drug combination therapy, while either drug alone had no effect.

"It is exciting to envision that combining two relatively inexpensive and non-toxic classes of generic drugs holds promise to make a difference in the treatment of patients with lethal brain cancer," says senior study author Douglas Hanahan, of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL). "However, it is presently unclear whether patients might benefit from this treatment. This new mechanism-based strategy to therapeutically target glioblastoma is provocative, but at an early stage of evaluation, and will require considerable follow-up to assess its potential."

Mice received the combination therapy 5 days a week with 10-15 minute intervals between drugs. The antidepressant was given orally, and the other drug (the blood thinner or anti-coagulant) was injected. The data suggest that the drugs act synergistically by disrupting, in two different places, the biological pathway that controls the rate of autophagy--a cellular recycling system that at low levels enhances cell survival in stressful conditions. The two drugs work together to hyper-stimulate autophagy, causing the Cancer Cells to die.

"Importantly, the combination therapy did not cure the mice; rather, it delayed disease progression and modestly extended their lifespan," Hanahan says. "It seems likely that these drugs will need to be combined with other classes of anticancer drugs to have benefit in treating gliblastoma patients. One can also envision 'co-clinical trials' wherein experimental therapeutic trials in the mouse models of glioblastom are linked to analogous small proof-of-concept trials in GBM patients. Such trials may not be far off."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...50924142514.htm

Seems like an obvious potential add-on to a ketogenic/fasting approach.
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  #37   ^
Old Fri, Sep-25-15, 20:39
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Nicekitty Nicekitty is offline
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Posts: 469
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 150/132/132 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: PNW
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I should be in good shape then--I've been on one tricyclic or another almost continuously for 34 years!

I'm fascinated by the metabolic theory of cancer. I loaned my copy of Tripping Over the Truth to my neighbor who has multiple meningiomas, and expressed some interest in a dietary adjunct to her treatment (basically keeping the cancer from progressing much). It would be interesting if she tried it, but I seriously doubt that is going to happen.
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  #38   ^
Old Sat, Sep-26-15, 05:14
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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If she does want to learn more, send me a pm. These are the two practical books I recommend. Miriam is in Montana but consults by Sykpe.


http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource....ses-cancer.html An overview with good links to more information about cancer and the ketogenic diet. The author’s ebook is a well written practical guide to using a Ketogenic Diet to Fight Cancer. http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource....r-research.html http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource....treatments.html

http://www.dietarytherapies.com A practical nutritional/diet consulting service with Miriam Kalamian, the author also has a book and podcast interviews.
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  #39   ^
Old Wed, Sep-27-17, 08:53
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
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This is downright despicable! Read from bottom up.


His cancer has not returned!
and:

"Andrew Scarborough, in his tale of how he beat his brain cancer on a ketogenic diet, subtitles the story ´Eat meat, drink water´ and ´Lamb is your friend´.

https://www.canceractive.com/cancer...ink.aspx?n=3117

These people will stop at nothing! No credibility whatsoever. How many people will be hurt by reading this BS and believing it?

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  #40   ^
Old Wed, Sep-27-17, 10:26
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,865
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Thank you posting this inspiring story. His experience with salicylates on a Ketogenic diet is fascinating, and the link within the article about them written earlier this year also interesting. Wonder with a typical mixed diet of modern produce the reaction is muted, but if you try the Keto macronutrient proportions, the salicylate reaction is amplified?

It is interesting but I have issues with many of the same foods he had to cut out. Hmm...
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  #41   ^
Old Sat, Sep-30-17, 18:46
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,682
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawNut
This is downright despicable! Read from bottom up.


His cancer has not returned!
and:

"Andrew Scarborough, in his tale of how he beat his brain cancer on a ketogenic diet, subtitles the story ´Eat meat, drink water´ and ´Lamb is your friend´.

https://www.canceractive.com/cancer...ink.aspx?n=3117

These people will stop at nothing! No credibility whatsoever. How many people will be hurt by reading this BS and believing it?



It's bizarre that vegans claim they eat that way because of ethics, but then will make up stories to "prove" their points.
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  #42   ^
Old Sun, Oct-01-17, 03:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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There are a lot of people out there. All it takes is one person to either make something up intentionally, or be up all night reading various online anecdotes etc., blur a number of them together, think they remember something about Scarborough's cancer returning, and there you go. Once that's happened, other people with pre-existing bias are unlikely to question your claim. Sometimes I'll type something out here, think, now why do I say that, do a little googling, and find that I don't have a leg to stand on. There's "will stop at nothing," and then there's the sloppy thinking that we're all prone to.
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  #43   ^
Old Sun, Oct-01-17, 09:34
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,573
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
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Just yesterday or the day before I read about a man who had brain cancer. Even with treatment, doctors said he had about 6 months. He prepared to commit doctor-assisted suicide, but then his cancer started shrinking. He did nothing for it - no treatment, no diet change. If I find the article again, I'll post a link.

So would Scarborough's cancer have gone away anyhow? It's impossible to know. Some cancers go spontaneously into remission - most don't.
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