Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Daily Low-Carb Support > General Low-Carb
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 10:24
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
Default

But we can agree that LC does NOT raise MOST people's morning FBG to unhealthy levels, right? Not even over long-term. And also seems to be that HbA1c is usually a better indicator of health than morning FBG? (It's my understanding that SOME people's hemoglobin "turns over" slower than others, which can result in deceptively high HbA1C readings)

All I know is I feel MUCH better and have MUCH better hunger control on LC than any other eating approach. It also makes the most sense from an evolutionary point of view. So I have to believe there is a logical explanation for why SOME get high morning FBG reading after long time on VLC.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #17   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 11:13
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

I would like to agree with you, coachjeff, but the truth is I don't know. I ate LC for 9 years before I began to see signs of insulin resistance. How many do we know that have eaten LC that long? I've only been VLC (<50 g per day) for a little over 4 years - maybe that's what causes the PIR?

As far as A1c being a better indicator? Who knows? I read that postprandials are the most predictive of future problems. But with home meters being pretty inaccurate, again how do you know? I've discussed the theory that A1c shows falsely high if you eat LC with a couple of MDs - the older ones reject it immediately, my doc fresh from med schools said Hmmm, could be. But this is far from mainstream knowledge and how well has it been tested?

I agree that LC *should* be a better way to eat but I remember in the 80s when it was widely believed that Fat makes you Fat. Ha!

For now, I eat low carb, test blood sugar often and add a little IF from time to time if levels get high. Hedging my bets, I guess.
Reply With Quote
  #18   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I'd definitely rather have an elevated morning fasted blood glucose (within reason), and low insulin, than normal blood glucose, and high insulin. And the question of what the blood glucose is over the course of the day is a very good one. If blood glucose were 120 at 8 am, and in the 80's or 90's a few hours later, over the course of the day--is that really worse than if you increased carbs at some meal, even if it did lower morning glucose levels? You might just end up having a similar increase in blood glucose, but just at a different time of day. Also, if morning blood glucose is caused by the release of cortisol early in the morning that's involved with waking up and dawn phenomenon--higher liver glycogen levels for the higher carbs taken in might just worsen things, more glycogen being there for cortisol to stimulate the release of.
Reply With Quote
  #19   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:18
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
Default

I would also have to think that a reasonable program of full-body strength training would largely or at least somewhat counter any peripheral insulin resistance potentially brought-about by LC lifestyle. Strength training makes skeletal muscle tissues more sensitive to insulin. Lean muscle tissues also acts as a "sink" for excess glucose...gives it somewhere to go. I wonder if those experiencing this do any strength training at all. Again, not talking about crazy "young jock" type workouts, but simply 30 to 90 minutes per week of a well structured, safe, sane, and sustainable strength training program.
Reply With Quote
  #20   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:19
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53

As far as A1c being a better indicator? Who knows? I read that postprandials are the most predictive of future problems.


It strikes me that high postprandial blood glucose might be a proxy for hyper-insulinemia. A person could have hyperglycemia early on after eating, hypo a bit later, and spend most of their time with normal blood glucose but elevated insulin behind all that.
Reply With Quote
  #21   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:22
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I'd definitely rather have an elevated morning fasted blood glucose (within reason), and low insulin, than normal blood glucose, and high insulin. And the question of what the blood glucose is over the course of the day is a very good one. If blood glucose were 120 at 8 am, and in the 80's or 90's a few hours later, over the course of the day--is that really worse than if you increased carbs at some meal, even if it did lower morning glucose levels? You might just end up having a similar increase in blood glucose, but just at a different time of day. Also, if morning blood glucose is caused by the release of cortisol early in the morning that's involved with waking up and dawn phenomenon--higher liver glycogen levels for the higher carbs taken in might just worsen things, more glycogen being there for cortisol to stimulate the release of.


I believe people's morning habit of caffeine promotes cortisol and adrenaline release which releases sugar from liver. I know for certain that caffeine greatly interferes with my appetite control and blood-sugar stability. Also tends to give me terrible hypo attacks soon after the initial coffee/liver-sugar-dumping rush.

I know many LC folks will NEVER consider giving the stuff up, but even Atkins advocated avoiding it if I recall?

Of course everyone's mileage may vary.
Reply With Quote
  #22   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:24
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
Default

I also wonder if it's possible that a long term VLC diet in some way might cause the pancreas to atrophy the way an unused muscle does? Not sure if even possible? Then perhaps it can not secrete enough insulin to keep blood sugars in normal range?

Just a random theory of course.
Reply With Quote
  #23   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 14:44
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,573
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
I believe people's morning habit of caffeine promotes cortisol and adrenaline release which releases sugar from liver. I know for certain that caffeine greatly interferes with my appetite control and blood-sugar stability. Also tends to give me terrible hypo attacks soon after the initial coffee/liver-sugar-dumping rush.

I know many LC folks will NEVER consider giving the stuff up, but even Atkins advocated avoiding it if I recall?

Of course everyone's mileage may vary.


Give up coffee?! Never! (Where's a smilie with fingers in ears? I do NOT want to hear this message! Even tho it may have some validity. )
Reply With Quote
  #24   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 15:48
aamama's Avatar
aamama aamama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 591
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 216/186/140 Female 62"
BF:
Progress: 39%
Location: Alberta, Canada
Default

Glad I found this thread. interesting stuff here. I'm only LC for nearly 4 years, and have had some recent long stumbles so I'm all out of whack, and couldn't therefore accurately measure my numbers right now. But I have a girlfriend (who inspired me to go LC) who has eaten <30 carbs/day For 8 years. She is now experiencing higher hbA1c numbers as well as putting some weight back on, despite strict adherence to her woe. She is struggling with this and has begun trying to add some carbs back in. This proves difficult for her, as she began battling cravings almost immediately after upping her carbs. I'm scared of this possibility...
Reply With Quote
  #25   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 16:25
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
BF:Huh?
Progress: 42%
Location: Texas
Default

Great thread, Jeff.

I doubt that its any one thing; some may just be seeing a naturally weakening pancreas, some the PIR Peter talks about. Strength training, as you mentioned, and a carb refeed day, are the two solutions I've seen mentioned most frequently.
Reply With Quote
  #26   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 18:32
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,606
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
I believe people's morning habit of caffeine promotes cortisol and adrenaline release which releases sugar from liver. I know for certain that caffeine greatly interferes with my appetite control and blood-sugar stability. Also tends to give me terrible hypo attacks soon after the initial coffee/liver-sugar-dumping rush.


According to this article, caffeine causes a "transient insulin resistance."

http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=983

Remember when anesthetics were considered to be the cause of post-surgery headache? It turned out so many people drank coffee, and then had to not drink coffee after surgery... that caffeine withdrawal was the true cause of the almost universal headaches.
Reply With Quote
  #27   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 18:44
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

i wonder if some people also have ongoing high insulin and don't know it. When I did Protein Power i massively overate protein as I now think, but it was in the guidelines of the program. Dairy and protein can raise insulin too. And some people may have an over-lively insulin response to anything that raises insulin. I think I may be one of those. And I have reactive hypoglycemia any time I overeat anything except fat, which never happens because I don't overeat naked fat.

So, VLC is only looking at one macronutrient, the carb. I wish we had an easy way to watch Very Low Insulin instead.
Reply With Quote
  #28   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 19:05
jem51 jem51 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,731
 
Plan: Mine, all mine
Stats: 160/120/120 Female 5'6"
BF:still got some
Progress: 100%
Location: Oregon
Default

My morning coffee helped to reduce dawn phenom.

Now that I've increased carbs a bit, I no longer have the problem.

Maybe that's why Atkins encouraged the carb ladder; too avoid this problem.

I don't want to just have elevated FBG and assume it's okay just because some guy (usually) said so.
Hyperinsulinemia should cause hypoglycemia. Do I know whether I have high circulating insulin? Can I just guess? No and no.
I can only really control my BG or try.
Reply With Quote
  #29   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 21:23
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
Default

Here's Mark Sisson's take on this...

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does.../#axzz3Lvki6Y6A
Reply With Quote
  #30   ^
Old Sun, Dec-14-14, 21:46
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
I would also have to think that a reasonable program of full-body strength training would largely or at least somewhat counter any peripheral insulin resistance potentially brought-about by LC lifestyle. Strength training makes skeletal muscle tissues more sensitive to insulin. Lean muscle tissues also acts as a "sink" for excess glucose...gives it somewhere to go. I wonder if those experiencing this do any strength training at all. Again, not talking about crazy "young jock" type workouts, but simply 30 to 90 minutes per week of a well structured, safe, sane, and sustainable strength training program.


Great thought, coachjeff. I did strength training from 1999 through early 2013, when I injured a foot and a podiatrist told me not to do leg presses. Silly, but I just quit altogether at that time and even though my feet are well-repaired, never took it up again (I walk and do various sorts of pilates and core classes). It's been in that time period that I seem to have developed PIR. Your comment gives me added incentive to get back to it. Thanks for the impetus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
It strikes me that high postprandial blood glucose might be a proxy for hyper-insulinemia. A person could have hyperglycemia early on after eating, hypo a bit later, and spend most of their time with normal blood glucose but elevated insulin behind all that.


That makes sense. When my fasting insulin was checked a couple of years ago it was at the lowest level of normal. I wish I'd remembered to have it tested last year when I was just starting to see signs of PIR. I'm planning to have A1c and insulin checked in Feb (after 3 months of continuous on-plan eating) and again in June if things are not normal in Feb.

Last edited by Liz53 : Sun, Dec-14-14 at 22:52.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:48.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.