As the linked article explains, Savory's contentions on this matter, too, are hotly disputed by other people with expertise in land and livestock management.

As to a strawman argument, the world's population is going to increase, sustainable eating or no. Population science has come a ways since the days of Malthus, and estimates of 9–10 billion people, peaking in 2050, are well as well-vetted as such kinds of predictions can be.

I'm an ex-vegan/ex-vegetarian. I understand what you are saying. Veganism is a moral position, not just about food one eats. It's like arguing religion with a fundamentalist. (Not knocking fundamentalists here, just saying.)

That's what makes vegans so, well, difficult. I should know, I used to be one for many years. What happened to me is that I got older.

Vegans/vegetarians over age 60 (I'm 70 now), especially women, sometimes find they can no longer burn much carb, just store most of them as fat, including vegans who like me ate only unprocessed natural foods as they grew in the ground, no fast food, cookies, candy, etc. I ate 600-800 calories of good vegan food, walked 3 miles daily, & still got an expanding abdomen. And I was picking up weight, a few ounces up to nearly a pound every month.

So I don't believe studies that show veganism is the best diet because most don't include women over 50 or anyone over 35. Besides, most research now done in the USA is paid for by a drug company or another for-profit corporation mainly seeking to "prove" their products are healthy or best ... in short, research results in the media are often just disguised advertisements in their effect.

My opinion? You betcha! ~~ Desert Mo

PS: For a few weeks now, I've followed the Atkins '72 original Atkins diet & have already lost most of my expanding abdomen and about 9 pounds. Sticking with being a born-again carnivore with scruples but none that keep me from eating healthy very-low-carb. So now you know my present "conviction."

Good job, DM! Many of us have come to this conclusion due to getting older and having our bodies and health tell us that what we were eating was not going to work for the long term!!! Many don't realize that it's the food they're eating that's doing these things.

My SIL was a pescatarian for almost 30 years. Then the weight started creeping up and up. After trying many alternatives, she finally read a book about LC...put it aside, couldn't do it.

My DB picked the book up. Read it. Spent hours online. Said, "LC makes sense for these reasons. Let's try it."

Although I cannot do the accent, I will now let my SIL tell you about her first bite of red meat in about 30 years......

I knew it was going to be a shock to my body. DH selected and grilled what he called 'perfect steaks'. I gathered tums, mylanta, ranitidine, immodium (just in case), and ex-lax (just in case). I put a bucket by my chair. I reminded myself I had to listen to my body, that my body would tell me if this was wrong. I took a deep breath. I cut a piece of steak. I listened to my body as I put it in my mouth, chewed, and swallowed. Every cell in my entire body screamed, 'What the heck took you so long?!?!!? MORE!!!

That's hilarious! When I took my first bite of meat after 10 years of veganism, I was in a restaurant with 10 friends. The decision to eat meat was a sudden one, although I'd probably been toying with the idea vaguely for a while because I was worried about my thinning nails and hair. I announced to the group (none of them vegans or vegetarians) that I intended to order steak. It frightened them! They tried to dissuade me, suggested I start with fish, or an omelet, or something light. When the steak came they all watched me, holding their collective breath, waiting for me to keel over, choke, or at the very least throw up. Like gotsomeold I finished the steak quite comfortably, no problem. And I swear my hair and nails became strong again almost immediately, within a few days anyway.

Lots of talk around Thanksgiving from family members discussing vegetarianism and veganism: several have chosen to go on meat-free diets to fix high cholesterol and avoid statins (they quoted specific numbers that had gone down since they gave up all meat). And there was talk about Cloris Leachman (who I love as an actress) being on talk shows and discussing her longevity and many years of vegetarianism. Someone quoted her as saying she wouldn't eat a piece of meat if you gave her a million dollars. Then I said I wouldn't eat a piece of bread if you gave me a million dollars . . . no one laughed.

Admittedly a tiny sampling but I couldn't help thinking that vegetarianism is going strong and seems to be as popular as ever, while eating meat is often still regarded as so controversial. My 85 year old mother said very apologetically that she still likes to eat meat most of the time.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2318870/va...ing-show-video/



I wouldn't argue that Betty White's diet explains her longevity. It makes as much sense to argue that Cloris Leachman's does.

I also see lots of places on the net where it's claimed that Betty's vegan.



http://www.inquisitr.com/1454345/be...s-vegan-virtue/




I see these claims of Betty White being a vegan all over the place--against this, all we have are direct quotes from somebody who actually knows here and spends a lot of time around her.


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/clori...tarian-forever/

Kitchen scene with Cloris Leachman, where she makes a cabbage salad that's been a dietary staple since her children were young, lots of cheese in there.

I think I could probably make a go at a diet of cabbage salad and dairy. I could even make it ketogenic.

I've become HIGHLY skeptical of such claims, because when I bring up vegetarian eating I hear a lot of:

"I'm basically/almost/really vegetarian because I

• hardly ever eat red meat
• only eat meat on weekends
• eat meat when we go out
• eat only chicken and fish
• don't eat meat at every meal!"

and a LOT of vegans eat meat and just don't talk about it. In fact, they are semi-contemptuous of stupid vegans who "let the side down" by almost dying of anemia and other health disorders. Instead of just shutting up about it, they will go public about their problems and then get death threats from the hypocritical vegans.

It's a mess, it really is.

Were Bear's post reminds me a bit of former NY Times food writer Mark Bittman's contention that he was a Part Time Vegan (vegan during the day, carnivore at dinner). One part of me thinks it is ridiculous, but at least he was honest and probably ate enough meat to keep himself in decent, though not optimum, health.

I've never thought of it that way, but I guess I'm a vegetarian almost every Friday. The kind that eats fish. My favorite Friday or take with me meal is the Modified Fat Fast Tuna & Egg Salad that I got off of the lowcarb friends website. I fiddle around with it a bit to change up the flavors, but it stays basically the same.

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/n...k-take-2-a.html

I think militant vegans who come upon the lifestyle young, teenagers or young adults, are doing so to fix a problem that has nothing to do with either meat consumption or animal welfare.

As human beings with faults, we've almost all gone through the same thought process that ends in the militant vegan lifestyle, but arrived at different ends.

Sometimes in one's life when one wants drastic change, when there is a problem to solve or there is just a feeling of stagnation, it breeds a sense of urgency in a person, that something must be done and something big.

Facing the actual direct causes of the problem is difficult to do, making solving the actual problem something one is unwilling to do, so to alleviate the sense of urgency, a different "problem" is solved, one that was never a problem in the first place and which thus requires no uncomfortable confrontation of the real issue.

It's like when you have a report due but you clean your kitchen instead. It's procrastination on a grand whole-life scale. The teenage/young adult years are fraught with difficulties to which quick fixes are not readily apparent. Becoming militantly vegan or vegetarian simultaneously allows a young person a chance to make sweeping change, giving one the sense that they are facing the things in their life they don't like which alleviates the sense of helplessness or powerlessness, and in supporting the bigger issue of animal welfare, allows a person to feel they are part of something bigger than themselves, they're sort of joining a club.

One can do something while doing nothing while doing something while doing nothing.

Like an addict who "solves" their problems by compulsively doing something (engaging in the addictive behavior), some vegans/vegetarians are "solving" the problems in their life by compulsively NOT doing something.

Technically speaking I'm a vegetarian.....95% of the time.

Because my first meal is usually a protein shake and fiber mix, which is vegetarian (not vegan, as the protein is dairy derived) and I only eat twice a day, so 23 hours a day I am not eating meat.

When I start my all calories at one meal experiment soon, I'll be 95% vegan!

That or auto-carnivorous.

To answer the question posed at the start of the thread: I think that the only way to deal with a vegetarian or vegan whose diet concerns you is to leave them alone.

Daughter was vegetarian for about a year, during high school. I let her alone about it. Veggie for her meant she still ate plenty of dairy and eggs, so had adequate protein.

One day, we were in the mall, and walking past Orange Julius, who also sold big Chicago style hotdogs. She looked at me and asked, "Mom, could I get a hotdog?" Of course, I said yes. When I asked her what prompted that, she just said, "All of a sudden, I really, really wanted a hot dog." Mind you, this was the girl who, at age 11, when she learned how hotdogs were made, stopped eating them, and would say to her brothers as they ate them: "Enjoy your livers and kidneys!"

Her youngest brother was a vegetarian for about two years, just after he turned 19. At Thanksgiving the first year, I got a tofurkey for him. MIL was mocking, declaring that he could eat meat, just that one day. I didn't make him deal with that garbage, just said that he was old enough to make his own food choices, and I would honor them.

After about the two years, though, he went back to eating meat. He said it was too hard to do anything else and be a vegetarian. He was underweight, and constantly hungry, always thinking about or eating food.