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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 09:16
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Default Question about dairy (and Wheat Belly)

I'm going to try the diet in Wheat Belly. The only difference I can see so far between his diet and what I've already done for years with limited success is the dairy stuff. I'm confused, though. He doesn't mention cream that I can see. (I have to admit I'm a skimmer, but I've read the sections on dairy, cheese, etc. And checked the index.) He says dairy protein is uniquely insulinotropic, so he recommends limiting milk, cottage cheese, etc. He says you can have cheese but limits butter.

I already limit my dairy to cream, butter, and cheese. So... on Wheat Belly I would ... what? ... eliminate the cream and cut back on butter (which I don't use tons of anyway)?

It makes no sense to my to give the dairy protein as a reason to limit dairy, then allow cheese which has more protein and limit butter which has less. Am I missing something? Should I just cut all the dairy and see what happens?
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 10:36
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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My copy of Wheat Belly is constantly on loan, and I don't remember what Dr. Davis wrote. If anything I would keep butter and ditch all cheese and cream (high proteins, allergens, and calories) as you said.
PaleoMom did a good summary of the science or lack thereof.
http://www.thepaleomom.com/2012/10/...iry-debate.html
Anecdotal evidence on low carb boards indicates it helps some with weight loss. Yes, The only way to find out if that may work for you is eliminate it one month and then challenge.

Do you have his Quick & Dirty Diet? http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/...-quick-dirty-2/
Unlimited cheese would not work for me at all! The program I am on limits cheese to 4 oz per day. When I was stalled had the opportunity to speak with Jackie Eberstein, who worked at Atkins for years. She suggested a cheese limit of 2-3oz, and none would be even better.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Feb-06-13 at 10:48.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 11:23
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Thanks, Janet. I do have the Quick and Dirty from the Wheat Belly blog, but I haven't seen the article at the Paleo Mom site. Looks interesting.

I think I'm going to have to just eliminate all dairy and see what happens. If anything. I'm just bummed because I made my monthly Costso run on Sunday, and I have 3 half gallons of cream sitting in my fridge.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 12:50
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Progress: 134%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by costello22
I think I'm going to have to just eliminate all dairy and see what happens. If anything. I'm just bummed because I made my monthly Costso run on Sunday, and I have 3 half gallons of cream sitting in my fridge.


Three Half-GALLONS!! I've never even seen cream in half-gallons.
Might be the problem right there. The plan I followed, based on what was used in the Atkins clinic, limited cream to 2 Tablespoons per day. Just limiting dairy intake down to reasonable amounts might help with weight loss.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 14:52
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Three Half-GALLONS!! I've never even seen cream in half-gallons.


Yep. Horizon has a half gallon size. So does our local dairy.

Quote:
Might be the problem right there. The plan I followed, based on what was used in the Atkins clinic, limited cream to 2 Tablespoons per day. Just limiting dairy intake down to reasonable amounts might help with weight loss.


I've tried limiting it to Atkins' suggested amounts. It makes no difference with weight loss. I increased the amount I consume when experimenting with a couple of diets with much higher ratios of fat.

I've tried so many things with no success it's not even funny, but I can't remember ever completely eliminating dairy. At least not while eating low-carb. Even when I briefly tried that Stephen Guyenet thing, I still had a little cream in my coffee every morning.

It's hard for me to believe that cream raises insulin levels, though. It doesn't make sense to me. Can't hurt to eliminate it and see what happens I suppose.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 15:13
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
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Default

Costello, I came across this evaluation of dairy the other day that I found very clear:

http://diagnosisdiet.com/food/dairy/

Like you, I've never really noticed a difference with dairy, but the next time I stall (I'm losing at a good clip right now), I'm taking out the dairy.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 15:25
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Costello, can you freeze your cream? I've done it before and then whipped it later. It does curdle but if you whip it you won't know. You could always use it for making butter too.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 15:32
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
Costello, I came across this evaluation of dairy the other day that I found very clear:

http://diagnosisdiet.com/food/dairy/


Thanks. I've been googling this issue - the question of whether cream/butter causes a rise in insulin. There seems to be a difference of opinion.

If I understand one site correctly, he was saying that, yes, it causes a rise in insulin, but it's not a problem because it doesn't have any carbs, so it won't make you fatter. In my case, I'm already fat! I need to get/keep my insulin down in order to release fat. Wouldn't it be amazing if all this time I was consuming a food that I thought was 'safe' because it didn't cause my blood glucose to rise, but it was keeping my insulin levels high and preventing weight loss?

Maybe this is why Atkins limited it. He may have found through years of clinical experience that it interfered with weight loss - not because it raises glucose but because it raises insulin.

Quote:
Like you, I've never really noticed a difference with dairy, but the next time I stall (I'm losing at a good clip right now), I'm taking out the dairy.


I envy you the weight loss. I hope it continues for you.

Trying not to get my hopes up. (I always get my hopes up, then end up in despair when the latest experiment doesn't work. )
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 15:33
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Costello, can you freeze your cream? I've done it before and then whipped it later. It does curdle but if you whip it you won't know. You could always use it for making butter too.


I was wondering about that. I think that's what I'll do.
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 15:58
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
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Quote:
If I understand one site correctly, he was saying that, yes, it causes a rise in insulin, but it's not a problem because it doesn't have any carbs, so it won't make you fatter. In my case, I'm already fat! I need to get/keep my insulin down in order to release fat. Wouldn't it be amazing if all this time I was consuming a food that I thought was 'safe' because it didn't cause my blood glucose to rise, but it was keeping my insulin levels high and preventing weight loss?


Sorta, yes and no. Dr "call me Wheat Belly" Davis says even butter stimulates insulin more than it should for the amount of carbs. Cream does not contain a lot of protein but it contains some and some of us are ultra sensitive to it.

I found the whole section on hormones, starting with this to be interesting:

How does cow’s milk grow a cow, and why should you care?

Job number one of all mammal milks is to make baby mammals GROW. To grow, you need proteins, fats, and carbohydrates to build body parts, and milk has all of those ingredients. However, just pouring ingredients into an animal doesn’t cause growth unless the hormonal conditions are just right. Think about it this way: you can pour all the food you want into a 45 year old woman but she will NOT get any taller.

How does the body know what to do with all the nutrients you are pouring into it? Should the nutrients be stored for later use? Burned for energy? Or turned into new cells? What types of cells? Bone? Muscle? Liver? All of these decisions are made by HORMONES. So, Mother Nature not only gave milk all the ingredients needed for growth, she also included the directions about how to grow, when to grow, and what parts should grow. These directions come in the form of hormones called growth factors. As we digest the caseins and whey proteins in cow’s milk, they are broken down into growth factors that send signals to our body. Please note that I am not referring here to added bovine growth hormone (added BGH). I am referring to the naturally-occurring hormones in cow’s milk that are supposed to be there for the sake of the baby cow. This is why no milk can ever be labeled “free of growth hormone”—all cow’s milk, even from the healthiest, most humanely-treated, organically-raised, grass-fed cow, contains growth hormones.
Milk stimulates growth hormones in cows - what does it do to us? Do we really want to grow at this point? I think there are enough unknowns and concerns here that I WANT to try eliminating it (I've been resisting the idea for eons).

When you make butter, you'll find out just how much whey is in cream....please report back? I'm so curious.

I too love Tom and Ray....
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-13, 19:38
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
Sorta, yes and no. Dr "call me Wheat Belly" Davis says even butter stimulates insulin more than it should for the amount of carbs. Cream does not contain a lot of protein but it contains some and some of us are ultra sensitive to it.


Yeah, I saw a link to a Dr. Davis article (from Hyperlipid, I think). But the link was bad, so I couldn't read the article. It was evidently about butter. The response/critique was about cream. I glanced through the response, but I'm so flippin' tired of trying to sort through all the science talk in some of these blogs. It just feels like 'macho science' to me. Almost like they're trying to obfuscate. I'm educated and reasonably intelligent. Write the shit so I can understand it. I just gave up on it.

Quote:
When you make butter, you'll find out just how much whey is in cream....please report back? I'm so curious.


Yes, I gathered along the way that whey was the issue. And I guess whey is largely removed from many cheeses. That would explain why cheese would be permissable, even though it has more protein that either butter or cream. It's not the insulinotropic protein.

Unfortunately answering the question of how much whey is in either butter or cream doesn't seem to be that easy. There's a tiny amount of protein in cream according to the nutritiondata website - 3.3 grams in a cup, if I remember correctly. But it's not broken down at that site by casein or whey. It's broken down by the amino acids.

Quote:
I too love Tom and Ray....


Me too. And that quote is so perfect for the topics of this forum, IMO. In theory, I should be really thin now. In reality, I'm still fat! And these theories are all expounded by lean young men having pissing contests over their stupid charts and graphs and rodent studies. Sigh!

Maybe I should just accept that I'm a fat, stupid, old woman who's probably doing the diet wrong or something. After all if I were intelligent at all I'd be a lean young male, right?
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-13, 05:29
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Interesting conversion you had on dairy last night! Liz asked the million dollar question:
Quote:
This is why no milk can ever be labeled “free of growth hormone”—all cow’s milk, even from the healthiest, most humanely-treated, organically-raised, grass-fed cow, contains growth hormones. Milk stimulates growth hormones in cows - what does it do to us?

Dr Cordain in the new edition, Paleo Answer, falls on the side of dairy hormones stimulating any hormonally realated cancers..breast, ovarian, prostate. Can't remember if there were studies he quoted or just his theory, but it was enough to scare me into keeping dairy to an absolute minimum. I now use coconut cream in my coffee, almond milk in tea, very little cheese and cut out yogurt except for rare occasions.

Costello, you are probably right that cheese and cream are limited because it interferes with weight loss. Dr Westman's diet is what was used In the Atkins clinic in the late nineties, and that was based on what worked for the thousands of real overweight people treated. There are no nuts because most people find them addictive and overeat them, too easy to overeat carbs and calories. Pretty much the same with cheese and olives...if you like them, a bowl of olives and plate of cheese can be scarfed down quickly...and Atkins never said Calories Don't Count. Over 2-4 T of cream likely slows weight loss, whatever the biochemistry reason, and it has limits.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-13, 09:23
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
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Plan: VLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Dr Cordain ...


I was trying to remember yesterday if I'd ever gone dairy-free while low carbing. (I was a vegan for 4 years, but that was definitely not low-carb!) Then I remembered my two or three days trying Cordain's plan. It was so much lower in fat. I ended up so hungry I went on an eating binge within days. A carb binge. It was not pretty.

Quote:
Atkins never said Calories Don't Count.


I pretty much fall into the don't count calories camp in that I believe that if I'm experiencing hunger that's my body telling me to eat. If I'm releasing energy from stored fat, then my hunger will go down. If for some reason (most likely elevated insulin) I'm not releasing stored fat, then eating fewer calories than I need to adequately fuel my body isn't going to help. I've tried the starvation approach to dieting - repeatedly. It doesn't work, and it makes me miserable.

Quote:
Over 2-4 T of cream likely slows weight loss, whatever the biochemistry reason, and it has limits.


Well, I've tried limiting to Atkins recommended levels and it made no difference in weight loss. I suspect eliminating it altogether won't help either, but it can't hurt to try.
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-13, 09:37
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Our weight history is somewhat similar then. I gained 60 pounds on the vegetarian Cancer Project diet, but was able to lose it again by going low carb. I am staying ketogenic for the possible cancer prevention plus I don't regain under 50g, unless completely off the rails at holidays.
My hunger levels did adjust over the long term. I remember Dr Westman asking me why I ate three eggs for breakfast..two should be enough ...and it was. I never considered his program starvation to limit some of those trigger foods..there was always butter!

Let us know how cutting out dairy works for you. Thanks,
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-13, 09:38
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
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Location: Washington state
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Costello, the site I linked to yesterday is actually a woman. NOT A MAN, a woman with female hormones. YAY!

JEY linked to a brand new post by her this am - I'm sure you too will find it interesting. It doesn't necessarily address the dairy issue, but it is a nice counter to experiments on male websites:

http://diagnosisdiet.com/seyfried-k...periment-day-5/

Cheese also contains casein and Dr Ede describes it like a time-release growth hormone for cows. My guess is that cheese is more problematic than cream, but who knows for each individual? I eat well within Atkins guidelines (no more than 2 T half and half or 1.5 T HSW and <1 oz cheese per day), but it is at the top of my list of things to try changing when the inevitable slow down/stall arrives.

I hope you will keep reporting here if/when you do eliminate dairy. I'm anxious to see your results.
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