If my blood sugar was that low I'd be out of it!!

I'm working on putting more fat in my diet. It's hard sometimes.

Nancy is it just a diabetic ketone test strip like this one?
http://www.novacares.com/dmomfeb.php

No, I think that's the less precise, more expensive one. I got the other one: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...valuation/15918

I order the strips from a Canadian pharmacy where they're $2 each. I don't have the link, but google should find it for you, or it might be in that article.

http://www.universaldrugstore.com/m...es+Test+Strips/

That was the one I used before.

Nancy and Kayla,
Know that you are not attempting to reach a Seyfried level of Ketosis (55-65 BG and 3-7 Ketones) but here is another tidbit picked up from Ellen's book. Move towards these goals at the same time, one without the other causes uncomfortable symptoms.

It's all a balancing act. My main goal is to feel good and not so tired all of the time.

I don't think I could reach blood sugar that low without my ketones being highish. If I eat too much protein, my BG goes up and my ketosis drops.

Yesterday, for the first time, I really think I was starting to feel like the ketosis effect was truly working. My appetite was much smaller, my energy was really good and, when I weighed this morning, I was down a pound.

Now, realize I've been LC for 8-10 years now and stalled most of it. I always ate protein until I was sated with it. Now I think that was my mistake. I should've been restricting my protein all along.

I hope this continues to improve!

I'm glad you are finding a way that works for you, Nancy. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit. I was surprised on page 2 that you'd lowered your protein so low and yet your carbs were still what I consider to be fairly high. I know they are considered to be ketogenic, but higher than many keto plans recommend, and perhaps more than some people can eat and stay in ketosis.

I first came across the concept of lowering protein when reading Dr Richard Bernstein some years ago. He recommends first bringing carbs down to 30 grams per day (including fiber), with 6 at breakfast and 12 each at lunch and dinner. If blood sugar can't be controlled with that, then he recommends gradually lowering protein. Dr Eric Westman recommends 20 grams total carbs indefinitely for his clinical practice.

I totally understand your desire to see the results that others have, but I am curious why you choose to reduce protein, rather than further reduce carbs. Granted, protein is insulinogenic, but so are carbs, and more so, gram to gram.

I've only been on these boards a little over a year, and you've been on much longer, so perhaps you have tried VLC with no success. But what about VLC with adequate protein (90-100 grams protein per day), rather than higher carb (45-50 g) with very little protein? I know you are concerned about losing muscle mass, as am I, and I wonder what you have read to alleviate your concern about losing it when eating so little.

I know you are well-read and you don't just jump on every idea that comes down the pike. I know you've been following Jimmy Moore's and Dr Ede's experiments with NK, but it is my recollection that both are eating far fewer carbs than you. Jimmy Moore is doing DEXA scans to make sure he does not lose muscle mass - will you be doing the same? He's also supplementing with testosterone, and I wonder if that is a factor for him in maintaining his muscle.

I am hesitant to even bring this up, but I know you usually have good reasons for what you do, so I thought I'd ask you to share them with us.

They are mostly fiber carbs. Take out the indigestible stuff and it is well within the ketogenic limits only rarely approaching 20. Today's menu is 38 carbs total, with 23 of them fiber, so 15 net carbs.

I have tried meat/fat only before and limiting total carbs, with fiber, below 20 and that also didn't work for me... probably too much protein.

I was also intending to try lowering my total carbs (including fiber) but I want to see how this goes first. LC veggies are what will keep this workable for me. Take them out and I'm going to have a very, very tedious diet.

I actually do happen to believe veggies are important to keep your acid/alkalinity in balance now that I've read "Wheat Belly". That's why I eat a lot of them. They also give me some variety and they're an excellent conveyance for delicious fats.

At some point I will try to keep total carbs under 30, or even 20 just to compare. But not yet. It was a difficult enough transition during the first week or two. I was RAVENOUS and actually gained a pound. Bleh.

Jimmy has been putting on muscle like crazy since he's been limiting to 80g. I can't really afford to do scans, but I might do some other sort of testing, like see how long I can hold a weight with one arm fully extended. If I start seeing I have muscle weakness, that should signal something.

Or I can do the stairs here at work. My legs are weak and shaky by the time I get to the top floor. I have a pretty good benchmark as the elevator has been out a few times recently.

Meanwhile my FBG has dropped 20-30 points so I think this might be the right tweak finally. My fasting insulin has always been mid-range since I've gone low carb. I think that's why I can't lose and why my energy has always suffered. I can't access my stored fat.

Hopefully this will change things! I'm feeling hopeful.

I just ate a chicken tabouli salad (used cauli rice instead of bulgar) and now I'm feeling ultra-full. This is awesome!

These protein levels aren't just exclusive to a Jimmy Moore style ketogenic diet, Dr. Kwalski's diet had similar levels of protein. The biggest difference is they included lots of dairy and more starchy carb. That just didn't work for me at all, though.


Oh... you'd be surprised at what I've tried.

Merely for your consideration..Dr Seyfried's limit is 12 Net Carbs, subtracting only fiber.
One that is way low, and two, I hate to have to weigh, measure, calculate fiber out, etc...it's all a big pain to have to be so precise. Now this is all theory for me anyway since I have a vacation coming up. Even starting with a 3 day fast, it takes up to 3 weeks to reach optimum levels and I will need a good block of time to even do a short experiment. Nancy, happy to read your progress In the meantime..wishing that you see great results for the effort!

Thanks, Nancy, for your reply. I'm a believer in veggies as well (and they make it much easier for me to follow an LC diet). However, if you read Phinney carefully, he never refers to net carbs and has said in interviews that he is talking about 20-50 total carbs (I believe the question of total carbs vs net carbs was discussed in his Ask the Low Carb Experts interview with Jimmy Moore). I also liked Dr Donald Layman's advice on how much protein in that episode of ATLCE. Anyway, everyone has their personal balance and it sounds like you are closer to finding yours. May your success continue.

No one ever questions how much protein people who eat one meal a day get. Probably because they don't track it or post it.

Anyway, I understand I'm not following Phinney, Atkins, Sigfried or anyone else exactly. This is an experiment and I want to see how it works for me. When I have followed Phinney's advice on protein, it just plain old didn't work. Same thing goes for Jimmy Moore. I think protein is may be the piece of the equation that needs tweaking for some of us.

Like I said before, and I even told Phinney during that interview, I have tried under 20 carbs and it just didn't work. I have tried a zillion things to make low carb actually help me lose weight, but my metabolism just isn't cooperating. When I was younger, it worked a lot better.

I've actually started losing weight and I'm feeling pretty dang good right now. I've got more energy than I did before. I noticed that I'm walking faster without even trying. I'll try to remember to do my muscle strength tests tonight and record it.

Ketones were 2.7 last night, so eating all that fiber isn't keeping me out of ketosis. Maybe it is keeping me from even deeper ketosis, but I'll test that theory later on. BTW: When I was doing the Phinney version of NK, I never got that deeply into ketosis.

At some point I'll attempt to keep total carbs to 20 or less and protein where it is. Do that for about a week, maybe two, then I'll gradually increase protein and see what happens.

I have to say, once this gets going it is pretty easy to maintain. My hunger levels are much better although hunger seems to spring upon me kind of quickly still. I remember I used to be able to ignore it when I was deeply in ketosis.

One last point, Liz. I don't really take in more than 50 total carbs. Most days it is under that, ranging from 30-40g. Subtracting out fiber, it is under 20, usually well under.

I'm sorry if I got under your skin. I haven't been on the boards as long as you so did not know the extent to which you'd tried everything. Now I do.

You've found a way that works for you and I wish you all success in meeting your goals.

No worries, Liz. I've felt a bit let down by some of the LC sages like Phinney and Volek. They just don't know what to do with those of us who don't lose weight on LC, so they give us the same prescription they give everyone else and it just doesn't work. I'm so glad Jimmy Moore embarked on his experiment and I got to talk to him. It encouraged me to shake things up.

Just FYI: I reached 3.8 blood ketones last night, 66 FBG around 2:30 am... I'm getting that ketosis insomnia thing. :\

I am interested in seeing if reducing fiber carbs does anything more, but I must say that at the moment it really seems like it isn't affecting my ketosis adversely. 3.8 is just outside the highest range for Nutritional Ketosis as defined by Phinney/Volek.

I am also (drum roll please) losing weight. I'm down about 2.5 pounds now. This is coming off a period where I was gaining fairly often on LC.

I feel like my body is FINALLY releasing and using stored fat as energy. At times I'm too warm, and it isn't a hot flash (I've had those). My brain feels... peppy. I think this has been my issue all along, my insulin levels were always high enough I couldn't burn fat well and my carb levels were low so I couldn't burn glucose either. The end result was I was always tired.

Last night I had the feeling that I could easily skip supper. That NEVER happens.

This morning I'm having a smoothie made with avo, egg yolks, lemon juice, sweetener, berries, coconut oil, magnesium, potassium.

Well, it's hard to argue with success. It would be great if this were the key to it all for you!

And I guess I did not realize you were disillusioned with P&V. I still think they are among the best for explaining what's going on in MY body, but it just may be that we're different (ya think?).

I'm looking forward to Jimmy Moore's cholesterol book coming out. The fact that he's working with Eric Westman on it makes me wonder if Dr Westman is also guiding Jimmy's NK experiment. I'd like to know more about how he or they made decisions on how to structure his diet.

EDIT: I just pre-ordered Jimmy Moore's book on Amazon, to be delivered in late August.