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  #31   ^
Old Mon, Apr-11-11, 12:28
sollyb's Avatar
sollyb sollyb is offline
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Posts: 880
 
Plan: modified Peat
Stats: 202/214/180 Female 62.5 inches
BF:
Progress: -55%
Location: Wyoming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancinbr
I also take 10mg lipitor along with 1500mg of niacin. This had a dramatic impact on my cholesterol. It went from 190-200 down to 130, .

Ralph


I like my total cholesterol to be close to or just over 200. Nobody is ever going to convince me to take a statin for that.

Have you read Gary Taubes or The Cholesterol Myth? (There are other sources against low cholesterol being better also.
And there is this article by Ray Peat
http://raypeat.com/articles/article...longevity.shtml

sol
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  #32   ^
Old Mon, Apr-11-11, 17:13
heirloom10 heirloom10 is offline
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Posts: 177
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 120/132/115 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: -240%
Location: canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutchinson
Grassrootshealth net
It depends on what your purpose is.
If you are just wanting to meet your daily needs then above 40ng/ml would be adequate BUT aiming a bit higher 45ng/ml would give a margin for error.
If you think it's a smarter idea to have some vitamin D3 actually stored in your cells so it's anti oxidant protection can be available to the mitochondria in those cells than above 50ng/ml is better and 60ng/ml probably ideal.
For nursing mothers human breast milk is vitamin d3 replete at that level.
If you have a cancer diagnosis there is some evidence that vitamin d can act directly on those cancer cells at around 100ng/ml.
Mercola, who spends his winter working from the tropics and his summers at Latitude 42, keeps his around 100ng/ml. and he looks pretty fit, and I don't think he needs to take vitamin D supplements because not only does he have access to the sunlamps he sells but his time in the tropics will fill his vitamin D tank.
However for me at latitude 52 and no winter in the tropics I keep mine at 60ng/ml with regular UVB exposure in winter + 5000iu/daily throughout the year and full body sun exposure WHENEVER possible cloud/wind permitting from April through to September.

I test my 25(OH)D twice yearly. I suggest you may need a bit more testing initially to be sure your levels are moving in the right direction. But after you have had a 3 yrs being able to predict your 25(OH)D result so you are sure you know how your body responds to D3/SUNLIGHT then you could drop down to one test every other year HOWEVER don't give up on testing even if you think you know what you are doing.
Things change, your skin's ability to make D3 is associated with you TC cholesterol level. If you cholesterol drops it's likely your ability to generate vitamin D has also dropped.
It's also possible urban and even rural pollution levels change over time and while you probably wouldn't notice slightly higher ozone levels in the atmosphere they will block UVB and that reduces the amount of UVB reaching your skin and the D3 creation.
UVA degrades vitamin D near the skin surface. Changing your office so you spend time by a sunny window every day as only UVA passes through glass this new sunny window time would be reducing your Vitamin D status while you worked.
So both the environment and your body may change in ways that may reduce the amount of vitamin d you are making or losing so getting checked from time to time even after you are sure you've got it sussed will still be needed.
I have mind done twice yearly and I think I know what I'm doing. I usually am able to predict the result within 5ng/ml. but you never know what changes my have occurred to upset our plans so better safe than sorry.


thank you very much!
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  #33   ^
Old Tue, Apr-12-11, 14:05
dancinbr's Avatar
dancinbr dancinbr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 811
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein (modified )
Stats: 298/205/199 Male 5 foot 11 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Smithtown, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sollyb
I like my total cholesterol to be close to or just over 200. Nobody is ever going to convince me to take a statin for that.

Have you read Gary Taubes or The Cholesterol Myth? (There are other sources against low cholesterol being better also.
And there is this article by Ray Peat
http://raypeat.com/articles/article...longevity.shtml

sol


I understand what you are saying. However, part of the Trackyourplaque program is to get your profile to 60/60/60. That is to say 60 LDL or less, 60 triglycerides or less and 60 HDL or more. I needed to do this and the 10mg helped me get there. The 1500mg of Niacin was significant in changing the HDL from marginal useless fluffy 56 HDL to 70HDL that now had the really useful scrubber version of HDL.

Now, I also understand the cholesterol myth and that 1/2 the people in this world that have had heart attacks had low cholesterol. However, there is another point being made about Lipitor (and my dose is really low) is that they don't know why but quite by accident they have found that it helps reduce inflammation in the arteries. More and more people are coming to realize inflammation may in fact play a big role in heart disease issues.

I am not going to make like a complete expert, but I am having good experiences with the regimen I now follow including 10mg of Lipitor as part of the regimen along with D3, magnesium, fish oil, niacin, baby aspirin, COQ10, vitamin K2.

Knowledge is moving forward and experience is helping all of us to gain a better perspective on all of the wonderous things we can do to help our bodies stay in good shape.

Ralph
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Apr-13-11, 08:18
Patina's Avatar
Patina Patina is offline
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Posts: 417
 
Plan: Less than 30 grams a day
Stats: 259/241/155 Female 69 inches
BF:Yes
Progress: 17%
Location: WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancinbr
... I too take Metformin ER. I have not heard of any real bad side effects from this. There are diabetes drugs that try to stimulate the pancreas that are NOT worth taking since there is some indication that they may in fact kill off what you have left in terms of cells that release the phase II insulin.


Ralph,

You should look into the Metformin/B12 deficiency information that is coming out. I've been on Metformin for 6 years and I'm just starting to take B12 supplements. The thing is...when taking metformin long term, you can be deficient without having the symptom of anemia which is usually a hallmark of low B12.

Go to Yahoo! and type in "vitamin B12 and metformin" and you'll get a ton of links talking about the connection between meformin use and vitamin B12 depletion/deficiency.

Here's just one from WebMD

http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/2009...-b12-deficiency
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Apr-13-11, 18:01
sollyb's Avatar
sollyb sollyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 880
 
Plan: modified Peat
Stats: 202/214/180 Female 62.5 inches
BF:
Progress: -55%
Location: Wyoming
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[QUOTE=Patina]Ralph,

Quote:
You should look into the Metformin/B12 deficiency information that is coming out. I've been on Metformin for 6 years and I'm just starting to take B12 supplements. The thing is...when taking metformin long term, you can be deficient without having the symptom of anemia which is usually a hallmark of low B12.



Suspect vit B12 or folic acid deficiency if the RDW count is high, or if both the RDW and MCV are high.
http://www.medfriendly.com/redcelld...utionwidth.html

I also read on another site that high RDW can be due to pernicious anemia vit B12 anemia). Doesn't have to be but CAN be.

Since I was unable to get a direct B12 test, I've been using my RDW to get a ballpark of how I'm doing, and sure enough after moderately aggressive B12 supplementation it was down last year, so in my case the connection seems to hold.
sol
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  #36   ^
Old Mon, Apr-18-11, 08:45
eddiemcm's Avatar
eddiemcm eddiemcm is offline
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Posts: 1,191
 
Plan: south beach
Stats: 225/170/165 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 92%
Location: Houston,Texas
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I started 5000IU of D3 and 450mg of magnesium citrate on
a daily basis about a year ago.I have experienced tremendous
improvement in BG levels.
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  #37   ^
Old Mon, Apr-18-11, 10:07
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemcm
450mg of magnesium citrate

Other readers must take not of the fact that Magnesium citrate contains 80 mg of elemental magnesium per 500 mg tablet. and most people will require FAR MORE MAGNESIUM than a mere 80mg.
Dr Davis suggests magnesium glycinate (400 mg twice per day) or magnesium malate (1200 mg twice per day)
Magnesium maleate contains 56 mg of elemental magnesium per 500 mg tablet. so 2 x 1200mg = 2400mg approx 5 x 500mg approx 280mg elemental magnesium.
Possibly the cheapest source of magnesium is magnesium-rich mineral water
You can make your own [PDF] Recipe for Magnesium/Bicarbonate Water using a soda stream and magnesium hydroxide (plain milk of magnesia) or dissolve 27.5mg magnesium oxide powder in 500ml water. and proceed according to the recipe.
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  #38   ^
Old Mon, Apr-18-11, 15:12
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemcm
450mg of magnesium citrate on
a daily basis about a year ago.I have experienced tremendous
improvement in BG levels.


I've had good blood glucose control too for the last 3 years. I've been eating a lot of dark leafy vegetables, black beans, soy beans, pumpkin seeds & whole grains, as well as other magnesium rich foods.... I supplement once in a while with magnesium, but not daily and not every week.....
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Apr-18-11, 15:37
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajunboy47
I've had good blood glucose control too for the last 3 years. I've been eating a lot of dark leafy vegetables, black beans, soy beans, pumpkin seeds & whole grains, as well as other magnesium rich foods.... I supplement once in a while with magnesium, but not daily and not every week.....
Your body is forced to keep circulating plasma magnesium levels at operating levels for around 325 enzyme actions to function. It will therefore draw down magnesium from stored reserves irrespective of the cost of doing so. The alternative is a breakdown of muscle and nerve function.

Obviously it helps if you regularly consume those foods that are good magnesium sources but the cost of magnesium insurance is not that great it's worth risking being deficient, particularly for someone with diabetes and the certain knowledge that your daily magnesium requirement it higher than a non diabetic. I don't understand why anyone would find the idea of using a cheap solution like magnesium bicarbonate mineral water a price too high to pay.
You will soon know if you've taken too much magnesium (loose stools) and I think it's better to be safe than sorry and so I'd suggest all diabetics to load up on magnesium chelates or magnesium bicarbonate until they get to the point of loose stools and only after having reached that point to back down and adopt a somewhat less zealous approach to magnesium supplementation.

Remember absorption of Mg is inversely related to the ingested dose so only use SMALLER amounts, with food (or as magnesium bicarbonate water) through the day. Ideally build up the daily intake over a period of weeks and keep going UNTIL you reach saturation point and your system can't take any more and the stools are loose. That way you can be sure you've replenished your stores, but until you do it's safer to assume your probably magnesium deficient or insufficient.
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  #40   ^
Old Mon, Apr-18-11, 19:22
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutchinson
The alternative is a breakdown of muscle and nerve function.

Obviously it helps if you regularly consume those foods that are good magnesium sources................

I don't understand why anyone would find the idea of using a cheap solution like magnesium bicarbonate mineral water a price too high to pay.

adopt a somewhat less zealous approach to magnesium supplementation.


I have my blood checked every 6 months and my magnesium levels are in normal ranges. I've added muscle this past year, while losing body fat, so no muscle breakdown occured and I don't have any neuropathy problems with nerves. I eat good quality food, which I don't think is a high price to pay for ensuring good health. I am about as zealous as a person as you could encounter when it comes to a discussion of food therapy to obtain and maintain nutrition. I do believe for most people who haven't learned to eat as I do, they should definitely rely daily on expensive and/or cheap supplements, but if we're going to compare absorbtion of nutrition from food to supplements, I'll opt to consume the right foods.... I do supplement, but don't need to supplement daily or even weekly to maintain good health, and I hope there isn't a crime in my letting people know that this is achievable, as I've done it.

I believe the biggest mistake people make is not in taking insuffcient supplements, it is in eating insufficiently. A body that is properly nourished for a long enough period of time, will receive the curative efffect of time. I am NOT an advocate against supplementation, I am for it. If I needed more supplements to achieve normal blood readings, I would do it.

In our modern day, I doubt if the most healthy person could maintain good health without some supplementation. I used to supplement so much that I only saw food as a carb/protein/or fat, didn't realize all that food could really do to nourish the body, so it could heal itself. When my wife introduced me to variety and moderation, it opened up a whole new world for me and I see food in a whole new way. Making right eating choices is so much easier now and the stress over health issues is gone.

I hope my offering a different perspective helps someone to make better eating choices. Food can be the best medicine, it is not the enemy.
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  #41   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-11, 01:05
amandawald amandawald is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
Default food intolerances and other issues can complicate matters yet further!!!

I think you both make very good points!!!

I personally also supplement with magnesium - as you may have noticed - but I also try to get as much magnesium as I can via food.

Ron (aka "Cajunboy47"),

You have been really lucky insofar as you met your Chinese wife who is so knowledgeable about food and so caring. I know that she has done absolute wonders in helping you to regain insulin sensitivity - amazing!!!

The thing is, I bet there are plenty of people out there who are not so far along in their journey as you and haven't quite got to where you are yet. For them, more aggressive supplementation probably is the best route for the minute: you can only acquire so much knowledge at a time!!!

Ted,

And I agree with you, too, Ted!!!

In my own personal case, I think I will have to supplement for a while longer in a relatively "aggressive" fashion, because of my only recently discovered gluten intolerance.

I had been trying to get my magnesium stores up for years - with very little success, I'm afraid. And now I think I have finally found out why neither eating Mg-rich foods nor taking supplements was working: so long as I still ate gluten-containing foods, I was never going to absorb much of any of the goodness from my foods or supplements!!!

It's a crying shame, really, to think of all the money that I have wasted, but at least I have finally worked it out!!!

I now think I am absorbing nutrients better now as the worst of the symptoms definitely did go away in the last few months (I have been GF since Nov 22nd 2010). However, I stupidly let myself run out of my favourite Mg glycinate (and the German customs seem to be hanging on to my latest iherb.com shipments, expletives galore) and, sure enough, my symptoms have come back - they are not as bad as they were, but it seems to me that I had only just begun to build up a small storage supply of magnesium, which very quickly got used up again.

The only thing I could get hold of quickly here in Germany were those so-called "tissue salts" with Mg phosphate in them, which kept the worst symptoms at bay, but only just (night-time cramps and stiff neck came back, but the cramps weren't of the hopping-around-the-room variety). I also tried my Mg chloride "oil", which also helped.

Yesterday, some Mg glycinate and Mg chloride I ordered from a company in the UK arrived and, of course, I had plenty of Mg yesterday!!!

And, of course, have had the loose stools problem today!!! So, now I have received a timely reminder that there can indeed be "too much of a good thing"...

Anyway, I just wanted to add that supplementation and good food are all very well, but it is also important - if you seem to be having deficiency issues - to try and find out if some other problem is causing poor absorption, too.

I wondered if I had candida, bacterial overgrowth, pernicious anaemia, gluten intolerance, low stomach acid - all or any of these!!!

All of these problems would mean that you wouldn't absorb various nutrients very well, or not at all, regardless of how aggressively you supplemented or how well you ate.

This was the case with me and, thank goodness, I was also lucky in having a supportive partner - my husband - who encouraged me to start a strict gluten-free lifestyle to discover if it helped. And, sure enough, the constant mild diarrhoea went away after five or so weeks and my energy levels and general well-being have improved immensely.

Now I just need to get some magnesium back in my system again...

Just my two cents...

amanda
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  #42   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-11, 02:18
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajunboy47
I have my blood checked every 6 months and my magnesium levels are in normal ranges.
That just reflects the way most testing for magnesium is done.
They usually just measures circulating magnesium and not stored magnesium reserves.
The body has absolutely no option but to keep circulating levels at normal levels and will do so until the 98% of magnesium that should be in your bones is down the loo.
Unless you use a dietary magnesium calculator and can be absolutely certain you are putting more in daily than your body ideally requires My Krispin-RDA is a total of 500-700 mg I consider it wiser to use a high magnesium bicarbonate water or magnesium chelate supplement than risk being deficient.

I really don't think it sensible to wait until you have deficiency symptoms before trying to correct the situation. It takes far too long to rebuild your skeleton.

I agree absolutely that food sources of magnesium are likely to be better used by the body BUT for most plants it's NPK that form the basis of the modern fertilizers used and Mg is only replaced if deficiency signs are recognised in the plant. As most plant breeding has focussed on higher yielding faster maturing varieties the chances are those plants are not in the soil (that's if they are not produced in soil less medium) long enough to acquire the same amount of magnesium slower maturing lower yielding varieties produced 50yrs ago.

Magnesium is WATER SOLUBLE and in field grown plants rain falls magnesium dissolves and magnesium is leached out so magnesium soil levels reduce year on year unless a magnesium fertilizer is applied.
I don't see any evidence that happens in UK farms and I doubt it happens where your food comes from.

By the way I'm sure I've mentioned it before SMALL amounts of MAGNESIUM through the day will allow your body to absorb it better and avoid the problem Amanda experienced in her over-eagerness to make up for lost time.
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  #43   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-11, 03:32
amandawald amandawald is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
Default blood tests for magnesium are meaningless, unfortunately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajunboy47
I have my blood checked every 6 months and my magnesium levels are in normal ranges.


Just wanted to add something to what Hutchinson just wrote.

If the information I have read is correct, only 1% of the body's magnesium is found in the blood. Therefore, using this one percent to assess the state of magnesium levels is totally meaningless.

I came up with this comparison to try and make it clearer what I mean: using the serum test to assess magnesium levels is like assessing the population of the entire United States of America by counting how many people live in the state of Rhode Island. Using that method of population assessment would not give you a very accurate picture at all!!!

The same is true of the serum magnesium test.

Dr Carolyn Dean says that one way of finding out if you are low in magnesium is to start supplementing! If you notice that various symptoms you had are disappearing, then they were probably caused by a lack of magnesium.

There are other methods apparently, such as the buccal smear test, and some pioneered by the Altura couple, who are big in the magnesium field, but I have never heard of anybody having any other test done than the serum magnesium one.

Just thought I'd mention that. For those people who pay for blood work to be done directly out of their own pockets, rather than via health insurance, it might be worth knowing: this test is not worth paying for!!!

amanda
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  #44   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-11, 03:34
amandawald amandawald is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutchinson
By the way I'm sure I've mentioned it before SMALL amounts of MAGNESIUM through the day will allow your body to absorb it better and avoid the problem Amanda experienced in her over-eagerness to make up for lost time.




I haven't had this problem since five weeks after going gluten-free!!!

What a silly billy I am!!! I mean it's not like I don't know this...

I was really just "over-eager", like Ted says, but I hope I have learnt my lesson now!

amanda
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  #45   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-11, 06:36
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,607
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

I understand people wanting to "eat good food" and think that is the end of it, but we don't always have "good food." I get some grass fed beef when I can, but it's quite expensive. I get organic vegetables when I can, but it's not always available here in the mountains. And when you think of the fact that magnesium poor soils were apparently first recognized in 1936; and haven't been addressed yet...

Supplementation is the only way to get some of these nutrients.
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