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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 05:36
PilotGal PilotGal is offline
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Posts: 36,355
 
Plan: KetoCarnivore
Stats: 206.6/178/160 Female 5'7
BF:awesome
Progress: 61%
Location: USA
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Did charles' running blog answer your questions earlier?
it really is a miracle for a long distance runner to have his times and not be ingesting carbs at all, eh?
i find it pretty cool.
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 05:39
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Very interesting podcast interview with IronMan competitor who does it on an LC diet.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...ng-episode-262/
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 05:49
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
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Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotGal
Did charles' running blog answer your questions earlier?
it really is a miracle for a long distance runner to have his times and not be ingesting carbs at all, eh?
i find it pretty cool.


Oh, I'm not all surprised to see an endurance athlete do great on LC.

But was actually asking about how people find LC affects their an-aerobic workouts.

I believe a targeted LC diet is best for people who do serious weight training twice a week like I do. Eat a bit more carbs on training days. Weight training depends upon glycogen, rather than fatty acids as fuel source.

Here's my take on all this...

- Fat is our main fuel. It is adequate to fuel daily activity, light anerobic workouts, and endurance type events - up to a point. (Peak power output may suffer in endurance events without carbs. Such as running up a steep hill. Even in the keto-adapted)

- Glycogen is the body's "turbo-booster" for what it perceives as fight or flight situations such as trying to squat hundreds of pounds or pedal up a steep hill.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 08:50
reriverita reriverita is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: Paleo Diet for Athletes
Stats: 135/122/122 Female 68
BF:
Progress:
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I've been on a combo Paleo/Zone diet for a year. With the exception of very rare "cheats", I do not eat grains at all.

With few exceptions, my strength, speed and performance continue to improve even though I do not "carbo load" or eat any other carbs than fruit and veggies. I eat mostly meat protein, some carbs (about 30% of my diet or less) and 3 times the amount of fat that is recommended (in the Zone). I am 44 years old.

One year ago, my bench press was 45#. Today it is 95#.
One year ago, my mile sprint was 10:00. Today it is 6:54.
One year ago, my 5K was 30:40. Today it is 21:14.
One year ago, my deadlift was 95#. Today it is 215#.

I ran my first marathon in 4:21:24--no carbo loading outside of some extra fruit.

As I am a CrossFitter, most everyone I know who performs on an elite level adheres to the Paleo Diet advised by Loren Cordain.

My results are typical. NONE of us carbo load.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 08:51
reriverita reriverita is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: Paleo Diet for Athletes
Stats: 135/122/122 Female 68
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Additionally, I have several friends who are ultra-marathoners. They also adhere to the Paleo Diet and do fine.
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 10:17
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
I believe a targeted LC diet is best for people who do serious weight training twice a week like I do. Eat a bit more carbs on training days. Weight training depends upon glycogen, rather than fatty acids as fuel source.
I would agree with you on the need for glycogen, but I think the idea of targeting carbs around workouts is backwards. I realize it goes against trendy strength training and performance shakes.

I also do glycogen depleting workouts twice a week, but I don't target the carbs for that. I think that finding the sweet spot of carb eating, so that you are ready for "go time" any time, is the way to go. Instead of ups and downs depending on whether it's a training day or not.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 14:42
jcass jcass is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 517
 
Plan: Carnivorous / WAPF
Stats: 168/152/145 Male 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
Eat a bit more carbs on training days. Weight training depends upon glycogen, rather than fatty acids as fuel source.


But how much glycogen? In a 75 minute workout I probably have any particular muscle under maximum load all of 5 minutes. Do I have 5 minutes worth of glycogen in my muscle even on a VLC diet? My guess is that I do, because of the reason I gave before, which is that my 1 minute burst strength is not any less now than it was before I went LC.

It is reasonable to suppose that once glycogen levels fall below a certain point the body guards them jealously and uses gluconeogenesis to keep them at that certain minimum level. After all, if you could not use any glycolysis at all then after about 10 seconds of intense work your muscle strength would quickly drop to the aerobic limit of about 25 percent strength, an almost catastrophic drop from a survival perspective. But I have never observed in myself anything remotely like this happening. I can still do the same 8 or 10 or 12 or 15 reps as I could do before on the higher carb diets.
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  #23   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 14:54
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reriverita
I've been on a combo Paleo/Zone diet for a year. With the exception of very rare "cheats", I do not eat grains at all.

With few exceptions, my strength, speed and performance continue to improve even though I do not "carbo load" or eat any other carbs than fruit and veggies. I eat mostly meat protein, some carbs (about 30% of my diet or less) and 3 times the amount of fat that is recommended (in the Zone). I am 44 years old.

One year ago, my bench press was 45#. Today it is 95#.
One year ago, my mile sprint was 10:00. Today it is 6:54.
One year ago, my 5K was 30:40. Today it is 21:14.
One year ago, my deadlift was 95#. Today it is 215#.

I ran my first marathon in 4:21:24--no carbo loading outside of some extra fruit.

As I am a CrossFitter, most everyone I know who performs on an elite level adheres to the Paleo Diet advised by Loren Cordain.

My results are typical. NONE of us carbo load.


How do you eat 3 times the fat os Zone diet if you're following Cordain's version of paleo diethttp://forum.lowcarber.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=7919442#, since he advices LEAN meats only?

Last edited by coachjeff : Wed, Oct-07-09 at 15:01.
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  #24   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 14:57
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
I would agree with you on the need for glycogen, but I think the idea of targeting carbs around workouts is backwards. I realize it goes against trendy strength training and performance shakes.

I also do glycogen depleting workouts twice a week, but I don't target the carbs for that. I think that finding the sweet spot of carb eating, so that you are ready for "go time" any time, is the way to go. Instead of ups and downs depending on whether it's a training day or not.


I think your approach is also very viable.

But do you know the reasoning behind targeted carb intake on heavy training days? Also, who said anything about shakes?
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 15:05
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Yes, I have read the reasoning behind targeted carb intake on heavy training days. I have also read that trusting the body to refill glycogen during the rest days works, too. I guess I am suspicious of the instant-gratification carb glycogen refilling as it so often seems to go along with the idea of training hard every day. Not required for longevity - perhaps I shoulda said for which goals, first.

Sorry about the shakes. I was lumping in the targeted consumption of protein also after heavy training, which seems to go along with that school of thought but which you didn't mention.
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 15:06
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcass
But how much glycogen? In a 75 minute workout I probably have any particular muscle under maximum load all of 5 minutes. Do I have 5 minutes worth of glycogen in my muscle even on a VLC diet? My guess is that I do, because of the reason I gave before, which is that my 1 minute burst strength is not any less now than it was before I went LC.

It is reasonable to suppose that once glycogen levels fall below a certain point the body guards them jealously and uses gluconeogenesis to keep them at that certain minimum level. After all, if you could not use any glycolysis at all then after about 10 seconds of intense work your muscle strength would quickly drop to the aerobic limit of about 25 percent strength, an almost catastrophic drop from a survival perspective. But I have never observed in myself anything remotely like this happening. I can still do the same 8 or 10 or 12 or 15 reps as I could do before on the higher carb diets.


Why doesn't glucogenesis cover glycogen needs on a LCD?

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=4748
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 15:15
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
Yes, I have read the reasoning behind targeted carb intake on heavy training days. I have also read that trusting the body to refill glycogen during the rest days works, too. I guess I am suspicious of the instant-gratification carb glycogen refilling as it so often seems to go along with the idea of training hard every day. Not required for longevity - perhaps I shoulda said for which goals, first.

Sorry about the shakes. I was lumping in the targeted consumption of protein also after heavy training, which seems to go along with that school of thought but which you didn't mention.


I typically eat about 75 to 100 grams of carbs per day when doing LC. (I'm an on-again/off-again low-carber. I'm on when I'm trying to lose a bit of fat.) On training days I'll bump it up to about 150 or so. It's not so much that I think I need a ton of extra carbs to hit the iron, but that by "treating myself" to some extra carbs on training days - as opposed to non-training days - those carbs will tend to be preferentially partitioned into muscles for glycogen replacement, with little chance of going to fat cells.

If you're going to boost your insulin levels a couple times per week, it's better to do so post-workout when that insulin is more likely to be used by our body in a positive manner, rather than a negative one.

And I think boosting carbs a bit once or twice a week also helps prevent lowering of thyroid hormones and leptin, which tend to become depressed on long-term LC diets.
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 15:36
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Yes, I see what you mean. Have you seen Sisson's carb continuum? it's pretty interesting but doesn't talk about the post-workout carb spike. He routinely has about 100-125 a day and is quite active.

I too think there might be something going on with thyroid and constant low insulin. I have my carbs such that I get a bunch of insulin once a day at lunch and much less the rest of the day. Seems to work ok. I also try to keep a tick above constant daytime deep ketosis but with a nice long overnight fast.
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Oct-07-09, 17:22
jcass jcass is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 517
 
Plan: Carnivorous / WAPF
Stats: 168/152/145 Male 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
Why doesn't glucogenesis cover glycogen needs on a LCD?

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=4748


ok i read your link and all I can say is that their experience isn't the same as mine. Gluconeogenesis appears to meet my own workout needs just fine. Maybe it would not if I did more sets. And I'm not trying to make myself the expert on this; only to say that my personal experience shows no decrease in anaerobic (glycolytic specifically) perfomance even when deep into ketosis.

I don't know if this sheds light on the discussion one bit, but I usually work out rather well fasted too, in the morning without breakfast.

Take what I say as just one person's experience. My form of working out is different than others', so lessons for my body may not apply fully to others.

Then again, why not just try it for a while and see what happens?
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Oct-08-09, 05:43
coachjeff's Avatar
coachjeff coachjeff is offline
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Posts: 635
 
Plan: Very Low Carb
Stats: 211/212/210 Male 72
BF:
Progress: -100%
Location: Shreveport, LA
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jcass - If it's working for ya, then I of course wouldn't change a thing.
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