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  #46   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 10:52
RobLL RobLL is offline
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Plan: generalized low carb
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Amergin - it has to be something like what you are saying. The answer will likely come in little bits of scientific research, which will not directly answer the question themselves, until there are enough of these bits to put them together.

Known parts of the body involved with the signaling: brain, fat, muscle, marrow, gut, pancreas, liver.
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  #47   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 10:53
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Quote:
But it seems to me that many people on this site eat very low carb and still have high blood glucose readings, particularly the "Dawn Phenomenon" early morning highs.
The most likely source for this BG is Gluconeogenesis.
Another explanation for the high Fasting Blood Sugar in low carbers is what Peter at Hyperlipid calls, Physiologic Insulin Resistance. Not from gluconeogenesis. Basically all the tissues are full of free fatty acids from being a fat-burner, and the tissues are in "refusing glucose" mode. So the glucose is in the blood stream just waiting to be used.

Physiological Insulin Resistance 3: Clarification of FBS

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot....resistance.html
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 11:09
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Valtor Valtor is offline
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Copied from another post...

Here is a quote from GCBC (p. 349).
Please note that the defect he talks about here does not have to be genetic, but could be caused by anything. It's our job to disprove this hypothesis. No one has been able to at this point. So it is still valid.
Quote:
Pennington proposed that a metabolic defect is what causes obesity in humans. The adipose tissue amasses fat calories in a normal manner after meals, but it doesn’t release those calories fast enough, for whatever reason, to satisfy the needs of the cells between meals.

By hypothesizing the existence of such a defect, Pennington was able to explain the entire spectrum of observations about obesity in humans and animals simply by applying the same law of energy conservation that other obesity researchers had misinterpreted. The law applies to the fat tissue, Pennington noted, just as it does to the entire human body. If energy goes into the fat tissue faster than it comes out, the energy stored in the fat tissue has to increase. Any metabolic phenomenon that slows down the release of fat from the fat tissue—that retards the “energy out” variable of the equation—will have this effect, as long as the rate at which fat enters the adipose tissue (the energy in) remains unchanged, or at least does not decrease by an equal or greater amount. Fat calories accumulating in the adipose tissue wouldn’t be available to the cells for fuel. We would have to eat more to compensate, or expend less energy, or both. We’d be hungrier or more lethargic than individuals without such a defect.

Pennington suggested that as the adipose tissue accumulates fat its expansion will increase the rate at which fat calories are released back into the bloodstream (just as inflating a balloon will increase the air pressure inside the balloon and the rate at which air is expelled out of the balloon if the air is allowed to escape), and this could eventually compensate for the initial defect itself. We will continue to accumulate fat—and so continue to be in positive energy balance—until we reach a new equilibrium and the flow of fat calories out of the adipose tissue once again matches the flow of calories in. At this point, Pennington said, “the size of the adipose deposits, though larger than formerly, remains constant: the weight curve strikes a plateau, and the food intake is, again, balanced to the caloric output.”

By Pennington’s logic obesity is simply the body’s way of compensating for a defect in the storage and metabolism of fat. The compensation, he said, occurs homeostatically, without any conscious intervention. It works by a negative feedback loop. By expanding with fat, the adipose tissue “provides for a more effective release of fat for the energy needs of the body.” Meanwhile, the conditions at the cellular level remain constant; the cells and tissues continue to function normally, and they do so even if we have to become obese to make this happen.

This notion of obesity as a compensatory expansion of the fat tissue came as a revelation to Pennington: “It dawned on me with such clarity that I felt stupid for not having seen it before.” By working through the further consequences of this compensatory process, Pennington said, all the seemingly contradictory findings in the field suddenly fit together “like clockwork.”

This defect in fat metabolism would explain the sedentary behavior typically associated with obesity, and why all of us, fat and lean, will become easily fatigued when we restrict calories for any length of time. Rather than drawing on the fat stores for more energy, the body would compensate by expending less energy. Any attempt to create a negative energy balance, even by exercise, would be expected to have the same effect.

The quoted hypothesis above is not necessarily about carbs. It's about how our metabolism works. How our homeostasis is maintained, etc... Until dis-proven it stands. Personally, I think it's future proof. Whatever is causing the effects described in it.

It's bigger than insulin alone or whatever stimulates its secretion.

Patrick
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 11:30
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amergin amergin is offline
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Plan: Low carb, suff. protein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
Another explanation for the high Fasting Blood Sugar in low carbers is what Peter at Hyperlipid calls, Physiologic Insulin Resistance. Not from gluconeogenesis. Basically all the tissues are full of free fatty acids from being a fat-burner, and the tissues are in "refusing glucose" mode. So the glucose is in the blood stream just waiting to be used.

Physiological Insulin Resistance 3: Clarification of FBS

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot....resistance.html


I have been googling around and there is actually quite a bit of research into IR and it's effects on BG. I haven't found anything so far that directly addressess the effects of a dietary protein surplus on Gluconeogenesis (GNG) but I'll shout when I do.
I have seen some research evidence that IR works at both ends of the BG production/consumption seesaw.
Not only increasing GNG but also increasing nett proteolysis in muscles, leading to more amino acids in the blood and giving more substrate for GNG.
ON the subject of the cells refusing glucose, IR would also contribute to this. Except for the fat cells of course which seems to go on taking in glucose and building up fatty stores long after every other cell has closed their doors on BG.
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 11:44
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rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
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Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/381/280 Female 66 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
Basically all the tissues are full of free fatty acids from being a fat-burner, and the tissues are in "refusing glucose" mode. So the glucose is in the blood stream just waiting to be used.

I'm a little slow on the uptake here so help me out. Wouldn't 'extra glucose' merely result in 'extra insulin' and then whether or not there were muscle etc. cells to stuff it into (once processed in whatever way) -- even if my various body cells wanted to be fed FFA's instead -- would it not then just stuff it into fat cells? ('Cause I can nearly hear my fat cells going, "Me! Me! I'll take it!" :-))
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:08
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rightnow rightnow is offline
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tidbit (thanks google):

Quote:
Ultimately, and finally, increasing fat stores should manufacture more leptin to overcome the resistance but, in the meantime, one continues to get fat and often ultimately obese.

This is similar to insulin resistance, when high fasting insulin indicates low activity in some parts of your body and a disruption in insulin signaling that is being compensated for by your pancreas making more insulin. What is lost, however, is your orchestration of insulin levels among various tissues. If your liver is insulin-resistant, it continues to make sugar out of protein, and if your muscles are insulin-resistant, they cannot burn that sugar either.

However, until your fat tissue becomes insulin-resistant, it continues to "hear" the high levels of insulin that are caused by the elevated sugar, and insulin's signals to fat tissue is to take that sugar, make fat out of it, and then store it. The positive side of this is that you're still able to take sugar out of the blood to make fat out of it. This keeps you from becoming diabetic, at least in the short-term.

In this regard, one could say that obesity is the price one pays to keep from becoming diabetic.


from
http://life-enthusiast.com/index/Ar...ptin_Connection
regarding LEPTIN
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:12
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Quote:
ON the subject of the cells refusing glucose, IR would also contribute to this.
It might or it might not. Consider the case where a person is insulin sensitive, not insulin resistant. The tissues are full of fats and insulin is low. The body is used to running on fat, and the glucose in the blood stream is being spared so it lasts longer. Same with glycogen use - it is spared and lasts longer after a person is fat-adapted.

Quote:
Wouldn't 'extra glucose' merely result in 'extra insulin'
Insulin is low in this scenario because it's a fat-adapted person who hasn't eaten breakfast yet. As I understand it, the glucose is standing by waiting to be used, but it isn't high enough yet to trigger insulin. That is not the same as a person who has high morning blood sugar because all the tissues of the body are full of sugar.

Quote:
and then whether or not there were muscle etc. cells to stuff it into (once processed in whatever way) -- even if my various body cells wanted to be fed FFA's instead -- would it not then just stuff it into fat cells?
If I understand what you are asking - yes, if insulin is high, it will facilitate glucose going into muscle or fat cells. Depending on who is open for business. Fat cells are always open for business until you get T2. Muscle cells will want glucose if they are doing sugar-burning exercise or maybe if they need glycogen, I'm fuzzy on that one.

But what Hyperlipid Peter is saying (I think) is that insulin can be low and yet the FBS runs a little high. Kwasniewski says OD eaters get that way too - I just read it in the book last night.
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:18
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Valtor Valtor is offline
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Plan: VLC 4 days a week
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PJ, your last post is one of the currently valid hypothesis. And of course, it fits with Pennington's hypothesis.

Indeed in this case, obesity is a defense mechanism.

Patrick
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  #54   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:21
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
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I'm almost afraid to ask this (per sounding like a moron) but I was reading this woman's blog not long ago, her elderly mother is diabetic and she's taking care of her. She said that she had tracked morning blood sugars being like 20 points higher IF mom hadn't brushed her teeth before bed. If she had, the BG was that much lower. I had never thought of this. I do realize that food in teeth and saliva might... er... digest still but it hardly seems like there could be enough to matter. Have you ever heard of anything like that? I'm not saying this relates to the topic at hand, merely to waking up with fairly high BG.

I got a BG monitor some time ago and spent awhile doing measuring, after I started getting kinda massive reactive hypoglycemia after eating eggs and sausage/bacon for breakfast. (I don't have that reaction anymore. Aside from going off LC repeatedly and so 'on average' eating more carbs, I'm not sure why not.) I noticed (this is after being on LC quite some time) that my morning BG was high and it stayed high when I didn't eat, well into the day. I was really worried about that. I think this stuff is making me realize maybe that was normal and does not have any dire implications.
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  #55   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:22
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
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Plan: LC (ketogenic)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtor
Indeed in this case, obesity is a defense mechanism.

So all this time I was resenting my body I should have been looking at my supersized fat cells as martyrs for my well-being. That's a rather different perspective!
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  #56   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:33
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
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Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
So all this time I was resenting my body I should have been looking at my supersized fat cells as martyrs for my well-being. That's a rather different perspective!

You can find a lot of references to doctors saying that the ones who become obese are the lucky ones. The others will have much worst. They could have cancer, become diabetics type 2 or Alzheimer instead, etc...

Patrick
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  #57   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:52
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I'm almost afraid to ask this (per sounding like a moron) but I was reading this woman's blog not long ago, her elderly mother is diabetic and she's taking care of her. She said that she had tracked morning blood sugars being like 20 points higher IF mom hadn't brushed her teeth before bed. If she had, the BG was that much lower. I had never thought of this. I do realize that food in teeth and saliva might... er... digest still but it hardly seems like there could be enough to matter. Have you ever heard of anything like that? I'm not saying this relates to the topic at hand, merely to waking up with fairly high BG.

Sounds unlikely. Maybe she jumped to a faulty conclusion.

Quote:
I got a BG monitor some time ago and spent awhile doing measuring, after I started getting kinda massive reactive hypoglycemia after eating eggs and sausage/bacon for breakfast. (I don't have that reaction anymore. Aside from going off LC repeatedly and so 'on average' eating more carbs, I'm not sure why not.) I noticed (this is after being on LC quite some time) that my morning BG was high and it stayed high when I didn't eat, well into the day. I was really worried about that. I think this stuff is making me realize maybe that was normal and does not have any dire implications.

There was something posted about this recently... high readings in a low carber (not one cheating a lot) means they haven't had breakfast, it doesn't mean they have diabetes. It was quoted from the hyperlipid blog I think. The explanation was there as to why low carbers are highish looking before eating.
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  #58   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 12:52
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Valtor Valtor is offline
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Plan: VLC 4 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I'm almost afraid to ask this (per sounding like a moron) but I was reading this woman's blog not long ago, her elderly mother is diabetic and she's taking care of her. She said that she had tracked morning blood sugars being like 20 points higher IF mom hadn't brushed her teeth before bed. If she had, the BG was that much lower. I had never thought of this. I do realize that food in teeth and saliva might... er... digest still but it hardly seems like there could be enough to matter. Have you ever heard of anything like that? I'm not saying this relates to the topic at hand, merely to waking up with fairly high BG...

Come on, no one is moron or we all are. We are all constantly learning.

This sounds like a placebo effect to me. Or it could be the fluoride or other ingredients in the tooth paste that affects her metabolism in some way.

Patrick
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  #59   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 15:24
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cbcb cbcb is offline
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Plan: South Beach-esque
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What about xylitol or other sweeteners, even noncaloric re the toothpaste.

On what Patrick said ... Is that to say that low fat outflow from cells is corrected by high fat inflow? (But then carbs or other issues lead to accumulation without increased outflow?)
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  #60   ^
Old Fri, Sep-18-09, 17:11
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
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Plan: VLC 4 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcb
...On what Patrick said ... Is that to say that low fat outflow from cells is corrected by high fat inflow? (But then carbs or other issues lead to accumulation without increased outflow?)

The way fat cell retains fat is by a process called esterification. 3 fatty acids are bound together with glycerol, thus forming triglycerides. In order for fatty acids to exit the fat cell, they need to be broken down again. It so happens that within the fat cells, fatty acids are constantly converted to triglycerides and triglycerides broken down to fatty acids. Energy is constantly flowing in and out of fat cells in the form of fatty acids.

The main agent driving fat into fat cells is insulin. When you eat, even if you do not eat carbs, insulin is secreted. The inflow of energy goes to the fat cells whether there is an excess of energy or not. With the help of insulin, there is more fatty acids entering fat cells than exiting. In between meals, the pressure of insulin is lowered and more fatty acids exits than the ones entering. This process is normally well orchestrated.

If anything disrupts this balance, like altering the flow of fatty acids outgoing or continues to drive fatty acids into the fat cells longer than necessary. Your fat cells will start to accumulate fat disproportionately. So then obesity is a symptom and an effect is this issue.

Pennington says that while the fats cells grow more fatty acids are able to get out. At some point the fat cell is big enough that once again the flow going in is matched by the flow going out. So you reach a new state of homeostasis, but you are now fatter.

Patrick
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