I agree but, using concepts from "The End of Overeating" and "Potatoes not Prozac," it sounds like her reward system is now dependent on them and it has been hijacked. Simply removing the outside sources of endorphin raisers, will make her feel even worse unless she is also taught how to keep endorphins high naturally. Movement helps but there are a hundred others. That's what "Little Sugar Addicts" also teaches.

She might also be a super taster. I am and figuring that out was a big part of it.

Amen!

I guess I should be thankful that she is not starving or purging. She is really growing taller rapidly -- a few inches the last few months -- so I guess part of me is hoping that it's just the driving need to eat the body always has when it intends to grow.

I guess the real problem is not the voracious eating but the fact that she doesn't want to be doing it on chicken and burgers. (Even with lovely sauces etc.) I mean if it were a simple matter of planning to have 3 extra burger patties in the fridge that she could nuke and dump LC ketchup on or dip in ranch or whatever, that would be do-able. It's more that she will eat everything *else*. So all the foods I have that make a mostly-meat/eggs diet decent and livable are the ones she eats to extreme (eg the cream cheese, peanut butter, hard cheeses if out of everything else, berries, etc.).

So she not only ends up with a billion calories, but has eaten stuff I need for making other stuff even for myself, and has defeated the entire point of being lowcarb at all since PB for example has a lot of carbs if you eat more than a tiny bit of it.

I tell her this but she seems to have no self control at all. I have sympathy for this, I just don't have a locking cupboard fridge/cupboard/kitchen! If she would only eat 'more meat' instead of 'more everything else even when there IS meat' it would be different.

I guess the main thing is the quantity. If a person really wants to eat 150g of protein a day, more power to them, probably their body needs that protein/aminos if they're craving more food. But when they only like chicken/beef and barely, and only enough to eat half that, yet are still driven to eat anything and everything else that is not meat/veggie/actively growing mold, there is not much they CAN eat which would not be really carby or really caloric in that quantity.

And, don't let me lie to myself -- I'm partly pissed because although I eat mostly meat/egg dishes, there are some things that having them, even if I only eat some occasionally or a little bit "in" something, is a big deal to me. My food is already ridiculously restricted, between lowcarb, food intolerances, and sheer finicky-ness. So not being able to have a few ingredients that are important to me around, since they vanish repeatedly and it's contributing to her problem, just pisses me off.

Seriously I should save my money, and hire a carpenter to trash the retardedly-wrong arch some bozo made as a kitchen doorway in this house and put a regular, LOCKING door on it. So she can only eat when I am in there or hand her the key. My goal NOT being to diminish her eating but rather to diminish her eating of certain stuff.

Sigh. I dunno, that doesn't seem like an answer either as it is a little extreme. It reminds me of once when I was a teen I had a door in my bedroom to the outside and it seldom shut 100%. My dad got so pissed about this one day he nailed it shut. When I realized what he'd done I thought he was a maniac LOL. I guess tearing out part of a wall to create a locking door to the kitchen seems a little similar to me.

Hmmn. Well I don't know how her insulin could be high so maybe it isn't that part. Since aside from the creamcheese/ peanut butter etc. that she is constantly gnoshing when I'm not looking, she's been on lowcarb with me much of the time. Aside from those things we don't even have carby food.

I just cleaned out my fridge. What's left is a good example of what we tend to have on hand:

Bacon; some gourmet sausage; hamburger; chicken breasts; hard cheese sliced and block and shred; cream cheese and sometimes some sour cream (to go 'in' things, not supposed to be a primary meal component!); usually cream or half&half for the rare cup of coffee I have and my indoor kitties; occasionally strawberries or blueberries; pesto, alfredo, green enchilada and red-italian sauces; salsa and condiments. In the drawers, some eggs, mushrooms, green onions, peppers; some almond/coconut/flax meal.

In the cupboards we have things like diced tomatoes, canned pumpkin/carrot, olives, some tuna/chicken, and a shelf that has spices, extracts, some dark chocolate, A.S.'s etc. I have a 'carby' shelf up high that has a little bit of oatmeal and a couple other things I oughtta throw out but we're not eating it anyway.

That about sums it up -- I mean literally that is all the food we even keep in the house. If we are going to eat carby food we have to go GET it because it isn't here. So it's not like she has some regular food intake that I would expect to drive her insulin up. Unless she is just overreacting to protein for some reason.

PJ

I don't know anything about that. I will have to get that book, thank you.



I thought I was, given all veggies esp. green taste like bitter dirt to me, but I get confused in the little stuff I read about it online. It makes it sound like supertasters can't eat anything really spicy or sweet because it would be too intense for them but I'm just the opposite, that's ideal to me and I dislike almost everything else.

I understand that hope. It's what I thought when my DD just wanted to get into a bathing suit. (sigh).

There is such a thing as non-purging bulimia. The person is driven to eat.

This is biochemical and related to low serotonin, endorphins, and dopamine.
Low serotonin is THE marker for no self control. What happens biochemically is that your mind needs a space between "impulse-think-act" and a person with whacked out biochemistry has no space and it becomes "impulse-act." This is alll over the addiction lit and applies to food addiction.

It would be to her lifelong benefit for her to learn that if she eats one way, she will have no self control. But if she eats differently, it will be there.

Not to bust your chops - but how long have you two been doing this dance, and what has changed in the last year or two? What if you had a do over. My own bossy opinionated DD, she could do her own weekly menus, which had to have adequate protein and good fats and fit in a budget.

Ah. Two problems, then. 1) getting and keeping your own food and 2) worries about hers.

In your shoes I would maybe get my own needs met out of the house. Or get a locking fridge and cupboard for myself? Put in the garage or something to not remind her constantly.

Yes plus it's symptom management only. I do not think the excess hunger is just her growing.

I think it was the bitterness in veggies that supertasters have trouble with. You can overcome that with training, from what I have read.

What if there's something physical causing your daughter's eating? Not to get you scared but things like excess cortisol or insulin can come from tumors that secrete them. Both can cause crazy hunger.

i sympathize with you and with her. I had lots of weight issues as a kid and the older I get the more I can see that no matter what other issues there might have been or might not have been (insulin, thyroid problems, etc.).....the real reason I overate and became so overweigtht was EMOTIONAL.

Using food to gorge and stuff yourself is an emotional issue for a child (or an adult for that matter)- i know this first hand. In her heart she is scared and wants to be healthy - it's just hard to know how to take the first step. I would recommend exercise over all else. It raises endorphins and over time makes you feel better and better about yourself so that you no long want to overeat.

I am just sympathizing with you....as I understand her position as well and how hard it can be for both mom and daugher.

best wishes

At least some super-tasters think vegetables are bitter. My husband is one, and it's very hard for me to come up with vegetables he will eat. Even caramel is bitter to him.

For instance, I just made aubergines/eggplant for dinner. He left the skins (as normal). I usually don't say anything but tonight I told him it was safe to eat the skins (thinking he thought they were like banana peels or something). He said they were too bitter.

He loves spicy food but usually of the hot pepper variety. I like spicy as in regular spices hot. I can usually eat hotter curry than he can (provided they didn't over do the chili powder) and he can eat way hotter hot sauce.

I don't think all super-tasters are the same, but the bitter veg thing is pretty common from what I understand.

FWIW - I find peanut butter more 'addictive' and much easier to overeat than other nut butters. A jar of almond butter seems to last forever, whereas I was getting into the peanut butter way too much. The same is also true of my previous addiction to the cream in my coffee - was *not* good at regulating portions of that stuff. So, even though these were low-carb foods, I was still hooked on them, and ate way too much of these particular food groups (dairy and peanut butter).

Hi PJ and Everybody!

I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm not a mom so I don't have that kind of anecdotal feedback for you...but I was a daughter and maybe that can help.

Also, being that I work with people and their dogs, some of what I say comes from that. I'm out there all day everday with lots of dogs...many moms and dads want their toddlers/young kids to pet the doggies. So, they tell their child, "go pet the doggie!"..and just stand there themselves not doing anything to model it for their child.
This is when I tell them that they will need to pet the doggie first to show their child how to do it and to show their child that they aren't scared of the dog.
Kids copy their parents behaviors constantly....especially the same sex parent. I know this becasuse I did and still do this and my mom has been gone for over 30 yrs now. I had to become hyper aware of what came from her that needed to be fixed. I'm still a work in progress.

My mom constantly told me "Do as I say, not as I do!" I think that is a horrible way to teach a child as it didn't work out well for me at all......I copied her behaviors no matter how many times she repeated the above to me. I still find myself seeking role models to emulate their behaviors.

All of this to say that if you want/need/expect...to change something in your child, you will have to embrace that change in yourself first. If you don't eat veggies...how can you expect your child to eat them? If you find them bitter, chances are she will too.

Eggplant is bitter on its own...but is like a sponge for great tasting sauces. I have taken an eggplant, cut away the skin, cubed it and sauteed it in onions, garlic, crushed red pepper.....and a can of diced tomotes.....

As far as setting it up so that she can succeed....she needs to see you do it first. Sorry if this puts pressure on you but it's just how I see this. I also think that you need to put a lock on your fridge.

When it comes to training our dogs, we need to change our behavior first if we are to expect them to change something about the way they behave too.
If we have no boundaries around food, how can we expect our kids to have them? If we bitch and moan that veggies are horrible, how can we even slightly expect kids to want to eat them?

I'm sorry if this offends and if it does, I will remove it.
I hope that it helps.

I've been following this thread with interest as well. I'm not a parent, but BF is and when his daughters come to stay with us, food is a constant struggle. The younger one doesn't like meat, and really won't eat anything but carbs. She is a bottomless pit, closet eater, and BF has begun hiding food from her and only portioning out what she's allowed for the day because if it's in the house, she will eat it. We've come home from work to find that she has eaten 8 yogurts in an afternoon, or an entire box of pop-tarts (an ill-considered one-time purchase by BF). I almost feel fortunate that she typically leaves the protein/fat foods alone, simply because if she gorged on those as well, nothing would be safe - but I do think that if she would stop eating the carbs, the gorging impulses would diminish.

In her case, I know that her insulin is completely out of whack because her mother feeds her nothing but carbs - and unfortunately, she's not with us long enough to get trained out of that. She's also been totally brainwashed against LC and constantly talks about how grains and carbs are good for you and that Atkins is bad (even though no one is trying to put her on Atkins despite the fact that her father has lost 50 lbs on it). She also will not eat meat in any meaningful amount, and if I serve a meal without some sort of carb side, she whines about being hungry and bugs her father for a snack RELENTLESSLY.

BF feels quite helpless - like you, PJ, he's trying to help her with her weight before it REALLY gets out of control (she's 11, 5'3" and probably 190 lbs, so it's getting pretty out of control as it is), but her mother just keeps pushing the carbs and telling her that she doesn't have a weight problem to try to help her self-esteem. Mom is also obese, a carb addict and a closet eater, so daughter is certainly emulating that behavior.

Ditto for me. Although I started having a probelm with almond butter too. Ouch.

To the OP (PJ?) - it seems like you've gotten some great advice on the psychological stuff here. Can't help there as I don't have kids--sounds like a seriously rough road, though, and I can sympathize! I'm sure I would have been around the bend by now, myself!

One thing that sticks out to me (non-psychologically!) is that she consistently goes back to the fatty things that you have around the house and is complaining of "hunger" even though she has eaten a huge amount. I have struggled a LOT with hunger, even eating a very low carb diet. I was eating 5 or 6 times a day, all low carb, all carefully measured portions but with plenty of calories, and still fighting blood sugar swings. I seriously tried a LOT of things before I accidentally stumbled on something that seems to work for me in the course of trying to eat just meat and eggs.

For years, I ate a protein shake at 6am or so consisting of protein powder (1 scoop or about 25g), fish oil, water, flax and psyllium. Probably about 350 calories worth. I was ALWAYS hungry by 10am, sometimes much earlier. When I decided to try meat and eggs, I needed to drop the flax and psyllium and the protein powder so instead I created a shake with coconut oil, water, and fish oil. I eliminated the protein powder too but added a little back in (about 1/4 scoop) after a week 'cause it tasted...well...a lot like oil and water without it! lol The shake ends up being about 400 calories but the big difference is that I am NEVER hungry until 12 or 1pm. Which is really weird after fighting hunger for so long. This is very similar to what a lot of people end up doing when they do IF--drink coffee with cream and/or coconut oil in the morning then nothing until a late'ish lunch. Oddly, when I eat a regular low carb breakfast (steak and eggs or something), I often find myself hungrier earlier, which is one of the reasons that I think the fasting may play a part.

Anyway, long story even longer--I think a really fatty protein shake is something to also explore. (I know protein shakes were discussed earlier.) Whey protein is really good for all kinds of things and if you were able to add heavy cream or half-n-half and maybe coconut or MCT oil, you MIGHT see some kind of reduction in the hunger factor. You can get a 2 pounds of Designer Whey protein (strawberry is my favorite) for about $25 and I think that is 60 scoops or something.

Just a (really long) thought!

Kroger and Walmart both sell it in Indiana. Kroger had on sale for 1.27 a pound today. Anyway, I gave up on grass fed, organic, expensive meat. Maybe someday if I hit the lottery. Probably buying a freezer and buying from a small farmer would be best.

I've made aubergine in many ways including something similar to what you're describing (but I usually roast it with meat when I make it like that). I am actually a fairly competent cook. It just never occurred to me that anyone would find it bitter, including my husband. As long as it is cooked enough, I never taste a bit of bitterness in eggplant whether it's plain or in something. He doesn't find all vegetables bitter especially if I am careful how I cook them. He just can't eat most of the veg that I love. Simple sautéed aubergine (just a little pepper) is one of my favourite vegetables. I think it's a texture thing for me.

I have to give my husband credit. He makes an incredible effort to try things, and he eats a lot more veg than when I first married him.

When an icecream fiend (which he is) won't eat a sundae because there is caramel on it, you know that there is something to the supertaster thing.

ETA: Doing some Googling, there's a lot of advice on leeching eggplants. I've never bothered because I've never noticed the bitterness unless they are undercooked. Maybe I have the opposite of supertasting and have too few bitter taste buds.

You sound like a very selfless caring mother. She is quite a lucky daughter.
But you must be sterner with her, if you want her to lose weight and correct her eating habits.
You know it could be school.
I remember being veyr large at school. I was always embarassed to eat my lunch. I knew it would spark bullying and teasing so i just went hungry.
When I got home, I would be so famished I would ravage absolutely everything remotely edible in the house. And yes, my parents began to hide food and locked up softdrinks in their bedroom.
Make sure she is eating at school. I think you just need to sit down and have a chat with her. I know I would have felt so much better if my dad has just discussed it with me.