Very interesting - and you're right - the idea that going too low in carbs could potentially spike someone's blood sugar does contradict the other idea - where there's not much trouble with going 'over' on protein.

Yep - I'm totally confused now.

That said, I think if I had to try and tinker to the point of getting macronutrient ratios into some idealized percentage - I'd go nutso.

Nancy - are you saying that lowering your protein a wee bit (or maybe it's a lot?) is helping your blood sugar, but that the higher fat isn't helping on the diet (weight loss) front?

I'm gonna have to go and actually read those threads now. I'm interested in the weight loss aspect, but also very interested in the diabetic aspect too, since I convinced my uncle to switch to low-carb about a year ago, and he's gotten off a ton of medications as a result.

Back to the topic (tip toe'ing out of here).

I think the problem is either: Dairy or too many calories or too much fat. I tend to think it's the dairy.

My FBG goes up and down a lot and it might be an herbal supplement responsible for the awesome reading. But if it starts to stay consistently lovely then I will feel good about crediting the diet. Still too early to tell. The first few days of the diet my BG was higher than normal.

Well, being low carb as opposed to high carb has to be a huge boon for most diabetics. Still, I hang out in the diabetes forum because I seem to be having issues with my blood sugar so I know it isn't a cure-all. People are getting their blood sugar out of dangerous levels, but they're far from optimal. Most seem to be happy with that... but not me. I want optimal blood sugar. I tend to think my incredible stall and my blood sugar are somehow linked, perhaps I'm very insulin resistant.

Ideally you want to have a FBG of 80 and post-meal BG of 120 or less. That is linked to longevity and health!

Can you do a Paleo-version of this Optimal Diet? I'd be very inclined to blame the dairy.

I get a very noticeable gain and bloating with dairy, and I don't care if it's 'just' water weight. No dairy for me, thanks. Come to think of it - no matter what kind of 'diet' I'm following, I won't ever be going back to dairy or grains.

Hey - if you wanted to carry on with this - could you not have some nut butters?

I'm wondering if maybe the reason the diet trial didn't work is because of the dairy. I mean, if I added dairy into any plan, that plan just wouldn't work for me.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier I was considering that.

But from seeing what Paganino (forgot her name is) writes I wouldn't call it the Optimal diet. In fact, she seems to think it's the choice of foods more than the macros that is important and says the Dr. says that in his book. But looking at the web site it seems like the emphasis is on the macros.

So like I said, this conflicting info is confusing. I haven't read the book. Awriter, who started all this, thong.ught it was the macros that were the relevant thing and I fell into that mindset too. I still do think they're probably the most relevant thi

It has been for me. 30-40g carbs & all is well. 50-60g carbs (even carefully spread over the day) makes me ravenous and craving carbs and junk food, which is why I cannot follow the OD to the letter - I had to cut carbs back to what works for me. The carb levels that work are the same ones I found worked for me while following Atkins, PP, PPLP, etc.

I really liked the PFC ternary diagram of diets!

Well, I had about 60g of carb yesterday in the form of rice crackers and I have to admit I don't have cravings or ravenous hunger. I think because of all the fat I'm eating.

But the bad news is my blood sugar was highish this morning, like 107. But I'll give my body a couple of days to gear up carb handling machinery and we'll see if that improves or not.

I gather that when protein is low raising carbs helps preserve muscle. At least, that's what is being proposed in the main Dr. K thread, seems that Dr. Bernstein (the diabetes low carb doctor) says about the same.

So what's wrong with raising protein instead of carbs?

I don't really understand the diet well enough to answer that. Just trying things out to see if I can move the scales again. I figured I'll try my best to adhere to the advice before tweaking.

Is there some sort of 'calculator' floating around that is supposed to help you figure out your optimal protein levels if you wanted to follow this "Optimal Diet"?

Am I reading things wrong, or does the Optimal Diet pretty much cut protein levels to about *half* what Drs. Michael and Mary Dan Eades say is a minimum level in their book, "The Protein Power Life Plan" ??

There are links to calculators posted in the main thread here:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=394198



And here's an interesting posting in a different messagethread --

Capmikee wrote:



http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...t=190311&page=3

Hi Caveman,




I just wrote a long reply to this question and it got zapped into the ether by a stray finger - bummer.

I'll try to sum up the gist of what I was saying...

First of all, although I am not following Dr K's plan, but Barry Groves', which is virtually identical in terms of recommended macro ratios, I feel qualified to answer.

And, I can't answer your question scientifically, but all I can say is:

I can eat 70+ grammes of carbs a day and lose between 1.5 and 2.2lbs a week. I still lose if I eat around 80-100g a day, just more slowly. (More than that and I maintain or gain).

These 70 - 100g are not "excess" carbohydrate; I burn it up and use it.

I do all the stuff that the Dr K people are doing: add bacon, cream, mascarpone, cheese, eggs, butter, a German version of ghee to what I eat - in fact, if I don't eat enough fat with a meal, I get hungry again too soon for my liking, so if I eat something which I know is a bit low in fat, I top it up with a couple of teaspoons of VCO after the meal. For optimal weight loss, I try to eat at least one tsp of VCO after all my main meals. So, I would conclude that I eat a lot of fat, but, in my case, it is not "excess fat": it appears to be just right to give me energy, to keep my body in fat-burning mode so that when the dietary fat is used up, my body just switches over to using my own body fat stores for energy.

So, like I say, I can't really answer your question scientifically, I only have my own body to prove that this WOE works! I have lost weight, but it is not muscle loss, in fact, if anything, I feel I have gained muscle and more definition in my upper arms. I have definitely lost a lot of fat: my jeans are much much looser than they were at the beginning of the year and I carry my excess fat in those typical female places: butt, thighs and hips - all of these places have less fat and my measurements are down.

According to an old German cookery book dated 1968 I have, a small amount of carbohydrates is needed for fat metabolism. In my case, this would appear to be 70-100g a day. (I even think I remember reading something in Taubes about this, too). The Germans were at the forefront of research in this field, so maybe they were on to something, which trickled down to this cookbook!

So, the "excess" carbs are not excess carbs, for me they are just the right amount to help fat metabolism run smoothly. And, equally, I seem to be hitting the right amount of fat so that what you call "excess" fat is anything but, it is exactly the right amount for me to achieve easy weight loss without feeling hungry or deprived.

YMMV, but these are my experiences with a very similar weight-loss plan to the one people are following on the Dr K plan. I don't weigh my protein and, as I'm doing just fine as I am, don't plan to. Maybe my stinginess prevents me from overdoing it on the meat!!! Or some days I don't fancy it and my main meal is a vegetable gratin, with maybe just a few bacon bits for flavour and texture. So, it would seem that I am instinctively keeping the protein low enough for my metabolism to remain in fat-burning mode.

Just out of interest, Caveman, what in your opinion are "excess" carbs and "excess" fat - you must have some figures in mind?

I hope this gives you some sort of answer to your second question..., which, in short, would be: "because it's not" and "because it's not".

As ever, of course, YMMV.

amanda

Hi Nancy,



Well, maybe it was...

amanda

Yes, google for "Calculus Victus" and you should find it.

Hi Capmikee!



If I have liver, bacon and onions with gravy (and nothing else), I am absolutely stuffed afterwards and not hungry for much much longer than after most meals. There is definitely something very satisfying in liver.

amanda

We'll soon find out. I've raised my carbs.