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  #91   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 14:33
MizKitty's Avatar
MizKitty MizKitty is offline
95% Sugar Free!
Posts: 7,010
 
Plan: Very high fat LC/HCG
Stats: 310/155.4/159 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: Missouri
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Merpig, I'm feeling a little "blind" still on what to eat, too. I added fat to everything I ate in every palatable way I could think of last night, and still only managed 69% fat for the day. But pushed my calories way up to 1900-something.
On the other hand, I ate a 12 ounce steak. It was the last one from a 3-pack i bought at Sams to eat off of this week, before i knew I was going to try this.
Today we ate out on a planned dinner ride with friends, and protein and veggies were the only things I could eat, there were so many starchy offerings at this family-style restaurant.
So tomorrow is when I'm starting officially.

Quote:
A Polish doctor, Jan Kwasniewski, who has used a low-carb diet to treat patients with a wide range of medical conditions for over thirty years, recommends a ratio of one part carb to two parts protein to between three and four parts fat, by weight. I see no reason to disagree with this.


I like Barry Groves too, and like this easier to understand simplified description of the eating plan. Combining that thought with Bernstein's recommendations for diabetics to eat 30g of carbs a day, I came up with
Carbs 30 g.....120 calories....8%
Protein 60g.....240 calories....16%
Fats 120g....1080 calories...76%
.......TOTAL...1440 calories............a ratio of 1:2:4 by weight, as recommended above.

Seems as good a place to start as any. Short of chugging Big Gulps of cream 3 times a day, I still don't know how to come up with fats that high while keeping the protein so low though.

It would really be helpful and greatly appreciated if for a while, everyone would post their daily menus to give us floundering folks a clue.
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  #92   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 15:15
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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It seriously isn't that hard if you sit down and plan it out a bit. I didn't think there was anyway I could consume that much fat but amazingly I am. I'm hungrier on this plan than I was on high protein.

Veggies with cheese sauce. Bacon. Macadamia nuts. Greek yogurt. Peanut butter. Cream cheese -- there's a cream cheese pancake recipe in that High Fat Honey's thread, if I recall correctly. Egg yolks. Salads with cheese, nuts, olives, egg yolks. Egg custards. Cheese. more cheese. Smoothies made with cream and fruit. Quiche. Broiled Reuben "sandwiches" (go easy on the meat, heavy on the cheese and mayo, no bread). Sour cream/mustard sauce (good on veggies or meat). Veggies with bacon drippings. Veggies with butter. Butter with veggies. Full fat coconut milk. Low sugar chocolate. Low carb cheesecake.

I don't think adding fat to what you already eat is going to do it if you eat too much protein to start with.
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  #93   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 15:23
taste test taste test is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 104
 
Plan: HF/MP/LC
Stats: 120/120/120 Female 64 inches
BF:26.5
Progress: 43%
Location: New Jersey
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Here is my day 2 menu. Eating all the fat is pushing up my calories.

Goal:
1400-1850 cal
29-46 NC
116-159 F
58 P

Actual:
1760cal
39.8 NC 10%
153 F 77%
55.8 P 13%


5 T. cream (with tea & coffee throughout the day)

breakfast:
3 oz. blueberries, ½ oz. coconut. ½ oz. macadamia nuts, 4 T. marscapone

lunch:
2 hard boiled egg yolks, 4 oz. peppers, 3.5 oz. tomato, 3 oz avocado, ½ T. vinegar, ½ T. olive oil

snack:
2 Ak Mak crackers, 9g butter

dinner:
5 oz. 80% hamburger patty, 6 oz. asparagus, 9g butter

snack:
29 g chocolate bar (91%)
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  #94   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 17:33
MizKitty's Avatar
MizKitty MizKitty is offline
95% Sugar Free!
Posts: 7,010
 
Plan: Very high fat LC/HCG
Stats: 310/155.4/159 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: Missouri
Default

Thank you Taste Test
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  #95   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 17:39
Kharma's Avatar
Kharma Kharma is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 302
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 285/185/150 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 74%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
It seriously isn't that hard if you sit down and plan it out a bit. I didn't think there was anyway I could consume that much fat but amazingly I am. I'm hungrier on this plan than I was on high protein.

Veggies with cheese sauce. Bacon. Macadamia nuts. Greek yogurt. Peanut butter. Cream cheese -- there's a cream cheese pancake recipe in that High Fat Honey's thread, if I recall correctly. Egg yolks. Salads with cheese, nuts, olives, egg yolks. Egg custards. Cheese. more cheese. Smoothies made with cream and fruit. Quiche. Broiled Reuben "sandwiches" (go easy on the meat, heavy on the cheese and mayo, no bread). Sour cream/mustard sauce (good on veggies or meat). Veggies with bacon drippings. Veggies with butter. Butter with veggies. Full fat coconut milk. Low sugar chocolate. Low carb cheesecake.

I don't think adding fat to what you already eat is going to do it if you eat too much protein to start with.


Nancy, I just posted in another thread, going to look in to this myself too.

I've cut out cheese and cream thinking dairy (and maybe the yeast it can generate?) was stalling me. Have you had any issues bumping up your dairy for fats?
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  #96   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 17:46
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 2,035
 
Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Québec, Canada
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I had to cut down on meats big time to achieve my targets. I guess I was eating way too much proteins.

Here is what I ate today.

Breakfast
- Chicken Egg yolk
- Cream: Whipping, Heavy (37% fat)
- Flours: Wheat, White, all purpose, dry

Snack
- Pork Rinds
- Whipped Cream

Lunch
- Cream of chicken (home made with heavy creme and turkey flakes)
- St-Method White Bread (no sugar added)
- Butters: Regular, salted

Snack
- Nuts: Walnuts

Dinner
- Butters: Regular, salted
- 1 cup Cheddar cooked like pancakes


It's not bad, I think I could get used to this.

Patrick
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  #97   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 18:12
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kharma
Nancy, I just posted in another thread, going to look in to this myself too.

I've cut out cheese and cream thinking dairy (and maybe the yeast it can generate?) was stalling me. Have you had any issues bumping up your dairy for fats?

I don't know yet. So far nothing bad except dairy tends to constipate me. Only have done this for 2 days now. I figured I'd give it a solid 2 weeks.
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  #98   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 19:34
Kharma's Avatar
Kharma Kharma is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 302
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 285/185/150 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 74%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I don't know yet. So far nothing bad except dairy tends to constipate me. Only have done this for 2 days now. I figured I'd give it a solid 2 weeks.


Oh gosh, I'm sorry. I was thinking it's been longer lol
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  #99   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 20:10
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Well I still feel sort of "blind" - no idea about my calorie target. I wish this diet had another name as trying to google "Optimal Diet" yields so many false positives "This is the optimal diet for vegans" ... "This is the optimal diet for long-distance ultra-marathon runners", etc etc. Hundreds of those.

I did find the actual website but found it as confusing as the last time I glanced at it. I did find this little formula there:

"The ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of:
m m 1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.8

In order to work out the correct daily food intake using this proportion, one has to know how many grams of protein needs to be ingested in a day to satisfy body's requirements. This amount varies from person to person and depends on a "due body weight". Due body weight, in kilograms, is equal to person's height in centimetres less 100 (± 10%). Thus, for a person 160 cm tall, a due body weight is 60 kg ± 6 kg."

Hmm, so they base protein requirement on something called "due body weight" rather than anything like current weight, goal weight, etc. It seems to be strictly a function of height.

Okay, I'm ignoring the plus or minus 10% right now. I'm roughly 170cm tall. Minus 100 leaves 70. So by the formula about that works out to be:
protein: 70g
fat: 175-245g
carb: 56g

So how did I make out? Here is my daily menu:

Breakfast:
2 chicken feta-spinach sausages
2 eggs
1 oz. smoked gouda cheese
1/3 cup cooked spinach
1/2 tsp butter
1/2 tsp coconut oil
(I meant to eat only one sausage, but I was so hungry I had to eat the second one too)
14 oz. brewed coffee

Lunch:
smoothie made from:
1/4 cup heavy cream
1/4 cup coconut milk
1 Tbsp coconut oil
1 tsp unsweetened cocoa powder
1/2 tsp instant coffee powder
a few Tbsp of DaVinci SF Kahlua syrup

Snack:
2 tbsp pimento cheese
1/2 oz cheddar
2 oz cream cheese
2 tsp almond butter

dinner:
2 cups of fresh arugula topped with:
1/2 a chicken-feta-spinach sausage, sliced up
1 oz sharp cheddar
2 tbsp pecan pieces
2 tsp coconut oil
3 tbsp homemade mayo (made with olive oil)

According to LifeForm that works out to:
Calories: 2101
Fat: 192g (81%)
Carbs: 24g (4%)
Protein: 80g (15%)

So I guess it looks a tad high on the protein and a tad low on the carbs, but basically sort of in line. And it was not all that hard to do. I think this could start to become more second nature if I work at it. Just wish I knew more what I was doing. I hate jumping into something without more knowledge, but this seemed like the perfect thing for me to try.
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  #100   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 20:38
DorianJ's Avatar
DorianJ DorianJ is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 331
 
Plan: Moderate Protein Atkins
Stats: 175/160/165 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 150%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taste test
Here's a question that I have. Eating more fat and less protein make sense to me if protein causes insulin release and fat does not. Less insulin, more free fatty acids flowing through the bloodstream to be used for fuel.

But the OD seems to promote more carbs (still low though) than say, Atkins induction. So won't the extra carbs raise the BS too and in that case, with less protein, will it be a wash? In other words, does switching out some protein for carbs really help? I know that fat is the main thing with this diet but there also seems to be an increase of carbs along with decrease in protein and increase in fat.


The problem is not insulin per se, but sustained high levels of insulin due to not ready energy.

Proteins are not a problem when you need them for your tissue.
They're a problem when you have had enough proteins and the extra ones are being converted to glucose (convertion of proteins to glucose is very high on very lot carb diets)

Carbs are not a problem when you need them to replenish glycogen.
They're a problem when you have enough carbs as stored glycogen and it is floating around raising blood sugar, stimulating insulin and getting converted to fat (a rather long process)

If you decrease the protein you won't have amino acids being converted to glucose, hence you will have a greater need for carbs which will be used mainly to replenish glycogen, hence they will be metabolized properly without surges, sustained levels of insulin and so on. Keep in mind that even on a zero carb diet you have quite a few insulin in your blood and being released when you eat. You can't have a zero protein diet and no matter the amount of proteins, when you eat you're experiencing an insulin spike. This is completely normale and required for survival. The problem is when insulin doesn't go down, because it doesn't know how to dispose of the nutrients.

So more carbs, less proteins and lot of fats means proteins being used to tissue renewal and growth, carbs being used for glycogen and fats being used for energy.
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  #101   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 20:42
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Debbie, you could get the protein down a bit by using egg yolks instead of whole eggs. Your numbers are pretty close to mine. 151-210 fat, 34-54 carb, 67g protein

Sausage is probably fairly high protein too.

I've been thinking of making an egg custard with egg yolks, cream and cheese... I guess that's really quiche though.

Oh yeah, another idea kicking around in my head is stroganoff. I have a lot of ground beef I should use up.
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  #102   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 20:45
DorianJ's Avatar
DorianJ DorianJ is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 331
 
Plan: Moderate Protein Atkins
Stats: 175/160/165 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 150%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amandawood
"The point is that, to lose fat, your body must use fat as a fuel; there is no other way. And the only way your body will use its stored fat as a fuel is if you force it to. That means depriving it of its present supply of fuel -the blood sugar, glucose - so that it has no choice in the matter."


It also means depriving the body of dietary fats.
Your body isn't going to burn body fat if there's enough dietary fat to burn. Yes you'll be a fat burning machine, but you'll first of all burn the fat that comes from your diet and only when and if they're unecessary you'll also burn body fat. Studies have been clear on that, if there's enough fat to cover your energy needs, you won't burn a single gram of body fat even on a ketogenic diet.

Likewise even if you have quite a few carbs in your diet, if the amount of carbs is not enough to cover energy needs, your body will necessarily burn body fat to get the extra energy or unfortunately muscles. We're fortunate to work this way (we store fat regardless of what we eat if there's extra energy we can't consume, and we only use the stored fat when we can't obtain enough food from our diet) otherwise we would have been extincted thousands of years ago.
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  #103   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 22:19
DorianJ's Avatar
DorianJ DorianJ is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 331
 
Plan: Moderate Protein Atkins
Stats: 175/160/165 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 150%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Shopping list (Please suggest anything else you might think of!)


Half & Half
Avocado
Mayo
Seasoned Lard
Anchovy paste
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  #104   ^
Old Sun, Apr-12-09, 00:34
KrisR KrisR is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 172
 
Plan: moderate carb
Stats: 300/209/154 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 62%
Location: NSW, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizKitty
.

It would really be helpful and greatly appreciated if for a while, everyone would post their daily menus to give us floundering folks a clue.



I've been following Dr. K's plan for the last 11 days and tracking my menus (see link in signature) daily.

Yes, it's been somewhat difficult, especially the first couple days, to keep the protein low but it seems like I've found my sweet spot with it. The trick for me (thanks to Lisa's suggestion) is to keep my protein fairly low for my breakfast and that leaves me more for later in the day. One of my favorite breakfasts right now is 1/2 container of Greek Yogurt (100gms), 50-100gms unsweetened frozen raspberries, 1 Splenda & 50gms mascarpone.

I also find that coconut milk and coconut oil really help me boost my fat up without having much of a protein/carb hit. We have 5.6 oz coconut milk cans here so one can per day, in 3 cups of tea spread through out the day really add up in both calories and fat grams. (You could use cream too - I don't because it causes heartburn for me.)

Oh, and something I've started doing, which I don't really LIKE doing but am doing in the name of science and conformity (!) is to weigh and measure. It takes just a second to plop my meat onto the scale and get a true weight (in grams) to record. I think too many of us estimate what we are eating and although that works for many many people, those of us that are struggling to get the scale moving MAY need to take stronger measures. At least temporarily.

So, although I don't like measuring and weighing everything that I put in my mouth, I am doing it. I still have 50 pounds to lose (have lost 90 already but have basically been at a stall for months now) - am I willing to do whatever it takes to get the scale moving? You betcha. The thought that keeps going through my mind is "How bad do you want it?" Dang it.....I want it bad and I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

In the spirit of full disclosure - I must also say that in the last 10-11 days, I have NOT dropped any scale weight. Now, I work out pretty strongly twice a week doing Slow Burn strength training, and just yesterday I started using the 6th hole on my belt instead of the 5th hole PLUS I 'feel' like my fat is less fluffy so I do think that I am losing fat - it's just that the random number generator hasn't confirmed it. My thought is that I need to give this plan more than a couple weeks to see if its going to work for me or not. ANd, perhaps I'll still need to tweak things - but in the meantime, it's working out quite well and I'm excited to have another option to try and I'm grateful that you are all here!
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  #105   ^
Old Sun, Apr-12-09, 01:35
DorianJ's Avatar
DorianJ DorianJ is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 331
 
Plan: Moderate Protein Atkins
Stats: 175/160/165 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 150%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisR
One of my favorite breakfasts right now is 1/2 container of Greek Yogurt (100gms), 50-100gms unsweetened frozen raspberries, 1 Splenda & 50gms mascarpone.


Wow, mascarpone with yogurt
Never though of trying it, can you confirm it is good?

In italy mascarpone is made by whipping mascarpone, egg yolks and sugar: http://tinyurl.com/dfsdam

It's pure heaven, but very high carb.
Probably using sweeteners (or fructose) it can be made into an high-fat low-carb sweet.

Another idea from italy is panna cotta (cooked cream)

It is made with heavy cream, gelatin leaves and sugar: http://tinyurl.com/cdvplv

Again I think a low-carb version of it would be perfect.
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