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  #76   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:35
taste test taste test is offline
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Posts: 104
 
Plan: HF/MP/LC
Stats: 120/120/120 Female 64 inches
BF:26.5
Progress: 43%
Location: New Jersey
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Here's a question that I have. Eating more fat and less protein make sense to me if protein causes insulin release and fat does not. Less insulin, more free fatty acids flowing through the bloodstream to be used for fuel.

But the OD seems to promote more carbs (still low though) than say, Atkins induction. So won't the extra carbs raise the BS too and in that case, with less protein, will it be a wash? In other words, does switching out some protein for carbs really help? I know that fat is the main thing with this diet but there also seems to be an increase of carbs along with decrease in protein and increase in fat.

I notice my BS is a little higher after meals eating this way. Is the mechanism insulin release or could there be more to how the OD works?

Lauren
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  #77   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:38
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Not sure Lauren. Protein raises insulin too and blood sugar. I can get some pretty high BG readings after eating a really big steak. Also protein raises insulin levels longer. I remember seeing some "area under the curve" graphs of the effects of protein versus carbs on people in a study.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Apr-11-09 at 09:44.
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  #78   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:47
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
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Posts: 2,035
 
Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Québec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taste test
...But the OD seems to promote more carbs (still low though) than say, Atkins induction. So won't the extra carbs raise the BS too and in that case, with less protein, will it be a wash? In other words, does switching out some protein for carbs really help? I know that fat is the main thing with this diet but there also seems to be an increase of carbs along with decrease in protein and increase in fat...

It's well explained here

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fat-not-protein.html

Quote:
For diabetics, the level may need to be lower to counteract insulin resistance. Typical levels of carb intake for a type-2 diabetic are around fifty grams per day; the level should be lower still at about thirty grams a day for a type-1 diabetic.

A Polish doctor, Jan Kwasniewski, who has used a low-carb diet to treat patients with a wide range of medical conditions for over thirty years, recommends a ratio of one part carb to two parts protein to between three and four parts fat, by weight. I see no reason to disagree with this.

Diabetics must play around a bit with the original Kwasniewski formula to make it work for them.

Patrick
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  #79   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:49
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Debbie, have you had your thyroid checked into?


Actually I have, and it's always normal but "low normal". I've even had a radioactive dye sort of thyroid test, and again all was normal but low normal. I mean just to make up numbers, if a "normal value" is in the range of 1-5, mine would be something like 1.1. I've read on the internet that people with values like mine - normal but low normal, have benefited from thyroid supplementation.

However I saw multiple doctors, and not one was willing to prescribe meds since my values still fell into the "normal" range. I finally got tired of fighting. One of those frustrations of having to go through a gatekeeper for something you think may benefit your health, only to have the gate slammed in your face.

After a while I got tired of fighting doctors. I don't know, maybe it's time to try again. But I just hate the idea, so keep looking for natural ways to boost thyroid function, and trying to avoid things that suppress the thyroid further.

Last edited by Merpig : Sat, Apr-11-09 at 10:01.
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  #80   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:54
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taste test
Okay, today was day 1 for me. This is my info and what I ate:

Goal:
1400-1850 cal
29-46 NC
116-159 F
58 P


I guess I'm still pretty much "flying blind" here, as no clue what my goal calorie numbers should be or how to calculate, or what I should eat. I do like the idea of this plan. And for a couple days now I've sort of been stumblingly increasing my fats and cutting my proteins - with not the least clue of what they *ought* to be at. I know I had too much protein for breakfast today, but no problems with keeping it low the rest of the day for me.

But for three days I've been just sitting at 292, my current low, without any *gain* so that's a good thing in and of itself. :-)
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  #81   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 09:54
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Well, unlike some thyroid patients I don't believe all weight loss resistance issues and fatigue are due to thyroid. I know that with autoimmune diseases of any sort fatigue is a problem. Before I went gluten free I had huge issues with fatigue, and many other things I thought were thyroid related. Fortunately after a few years on Paleo a lot of that has cleared up.

I'm not sure what causes my weight loss resistance but I suspect I'm insulin resistant and it is getting worse despite the ongoing low carb diet.
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  #82   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 10:03
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Okay, back to the beginning here. Is there a good place I can go to read about what I *ought* to be eating on this diet? And how I can figure out what my ratios are? Since the Calculus Victus program is too dumb to be able to load onto my PC is there anywhere I can go that will let me calculate numbers by hand? Any lists of foods?
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  #83   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 10:39
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Lisa plugged our numbers in for us. I bet she'd do it for you too. She needs your age, your weight in kilos and your height in centimeters.

As far as food goes, you might want to scan through the thread. I posted a proposed shopping list (which I followed). Several folks have posted recipes and what not.

Basically I'm eating loads of the highest fat dairy I can find, egg yolks, veggies and a little fruit, combined in various ways... oh yeah, with small amounts of meats like bacon and pastrami. I'm going to have a "Reuben" for lunch without break, just broiled on some foil.

At some point I'll make a low carb cheesecake. I think that'd be a nice breakfast option.

I'm plugging in the foods I plan to eat into Fitday to make sure the ratios work out and I'm going to try to stick with that.

Someone also posted a link to a bunch of high-fat recipes that was done here several years ago.
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  #84   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 12:26
equistar's Avatar
equistar equistar is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 488
 
Plan: carnivore
Stats: 150/115/110 Female 5'2
BF:
Progress: 88%
Location: Louisiana
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Yes Nancy, Michael Pollan was his name. I'm off to do research on him. I go off on tangents way too much guess that's adult ADD kicking in.
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  #85   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 12:42
equistar's Avatar
equistar equistar is offline
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Posts: 488
 
Plan: carnivore
Stats: 150/115/110 Female 5'2
BF:
Progress: 88%
Location: Louisiana
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This is not exactly what I heard on the radio that day but it is the same farm. Excellent video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQPN1O03z8I

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TQPN1O03z8I&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TQPN1O03z8I&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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  #86   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 12:42
Elizellen's Avatar
Elizellen Elizellen is offline
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Posts: 10,733
 
Plan: Atkins (DANDR)
Stats: 290/141/130 Female 65.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Bournemouth (UK)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Update, I've downloaded it but it seems I can't install it. I went to install and it wants to install to C:/Program Files/Calculus Invictus -
Just a thought from a non-techie member - did you download the programme onto your C drive or your external drive?
If the installer is on the C drive that might be the problem, so maybe copying it to the external drive would work?
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  #87   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 13:25
amandawald amandawald is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,735
 
Plan: GF mod carb/Schwarzbein
Stats: 160/160/160 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Germany
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Hi Nancy and Lisa in particular, and the rest of the people - men and women - who are reading this thread!!!

Once again, Lisa and Nancy, thanks very much for starting this thread and for all the recipe ideas. I particularly like the idea of the melted dark choc with coconut oil!!! I like to have 70% cocoa chocolate as a wee snack, but adding the VCO would be a great idea!

Lisa: could you input my stats into your programme and give me an idea of the ratios in grammes that I should be aiming for? I hope that won't take too much time out of your day. According to Groves, the amount of carbs on the Kwasnieski plan would be between 50-75g of carbs, but he doesn't say how many grammes of protein, just quotes the percentages, which mean sweet nothing to me.

Current weight: 62.8gkg; goal weight: 59kg; height: 1m65. Is that all you need?

This is to everybody:

All this info on this thread is almost too much for me to take in right now, but it crossed my mind that the basic idea of the OD might be better for females in particular (athletes excluded) than the "standard" low-carb diet, which have always tended to prescribe "as much fat and protein as you want". (I'm re-reading GCBC right now, and that's what comes across in the chapter on "Unconventional Diets" - carbs are the only thing that is restricted; protein and fat can be eaten in unlimited quantities).

Seeing as women have more body fat than men (and overweight women even more fat), as well as less muscle, it would kind of make sense (to me at least) that women would actually need a tad less protein to provide the necessary nutrients for metabolic functions than men would. Equally, as our bodies contain more fat, perhaps they then also need proportionately more fat - in relation to the leaner bodies of men - as a nutrient??? I'm just thinking aloud here, but does that make sense to the rest of you?

Equally, whilst trying to keep your body in fat-burning, weight-loss mode, we presumably need to keep our insulin levels as low as possible. If insulin drives fat storage, and fat storage is exactly the opposite of what we want if we are trying to lose weight, then we need to do all we can to keep those insulin levels down, which means keeping carbs and protein low.

In the case of carbs, I think these would get preferential treatment by the body for conversion into energy anyway as they are metabolized fastest. If there are only a few carbs in the body at any given time, I imagine these will be too few for the body to convert them to fat. Equally, if we try to ensure that the body is only getting enough protein to cover its needs for metabolic functions, but is not tempted - so to speak - to use the protein for conversion into energy, then the only thing remaining for long-term energy provision is the fat in the food we eat.

If the body's main fuel - after burning off the few carbs in the system - is dietary fat, but this fuel is released relatively slowly because it takes the body longer to metabolize it than other fuels, then presumably, to take up the slack whilst this metabolic process gets underway, the body will then start burning up its own fat???

In one of Barry Groves' books he puts it like this:

Quote:
"The point is that, to lose fat, your body must use fat as a fuel; there is no other way. And the only way your body will use its stored fat as a fuel is if you force it to. That means depriving it of its present supply of fuel -the blood sugar, glucose - so that it has no choice in the matter."


Perhaps what also needs to be added into the equation is that other sources of energy need to be low too, such as protein. Additionally, for optimal weight loss, IMHO, you need to cut alcohol out of the equation completely, too, although that is of course a matter of personal preference. Seeing as German beer is my preferred source of alcohol (with all that maltose, as well as the actual alcohol in it!!!), I have been on the wagon whilst low-carbing recently: with success; it has speeded up weight loss considerably!

My final thought is that I think I have now found out why my usually successfully strategy of around 70g of carbs a day doesn't seem to have been quite so successful over the last few days: I may have overdone it on the protein!!!

Last Saturday morning, when I went shopping, the weather was great here and so I bought four slabs of fatty pig meat for a BBQ with salad for me and my family. Unfortunately, the weather then turned cold and the BBQ idea didn't happen... As a result, I ate the pig meat for lunch on four consecutive days... And I seem to be in the middle of a stall... There has been some downward movement, but not as much as I had hoped. I wonder if I have been overdoing it on the protein???

At any rate, thanks to the inspiration of this thread, I am going to try to cut down the protein a little and see if that speeds up weight loss again.

Hope I haven't bored the pants off everybody with this long post... Just needed to clear all that out of my head so I could start thinking about other stuff!!!

amanda
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  #88   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 13:30
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
As far as food goes, you might want to scan through the thread. I posted a proposed shopping list (which I followed). Several folks have posted recipes and what not.


Thanks, I have read through the entire thread a couple times, and have seen the shopping lists, etc. But they are not extensive enough to base a lifetime of eating on! And don't know how much the lists are influenced by individual posters' preferences as opposed to what sort of variety is actually allowed or encouraged.

So I still feel like I'm going into this blindfolded and with both hands tied behind my back.
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  #89   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 13:34
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizellen
Just a thought from a non-techie member - did you download the programme onto your C drive or your external drive?


Oh no, not nearly enough room on my C-drive to download anything to it! Everything, but everything, gets downloaded to the external drive. NOTHING goes on C. I figure C is going to creep a little over time as some "under the covers" stuff goes there no matter what you do, and I just can't add to it.

Ah for the old days of DOS and Win3.1, when you could just cut and paste a program to move it elsewhere, and there was no darn Registry to worry about. I've done minor Regedits when I've had to, but never really feel secure with that method of trying to find all the proper keys for moving a program to a new drive. Grrrrrr.
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  #90   ^
Old Sat, Apr-11-09, 14:08
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Thanks, I have read through the entire thread a couple times, and have seen the shopping lists, etc. But they are not extensive enough to base a lifetime of eating on! And don't know how much the lists are influenced by individual posters' preferences as opposed to what sort of variety is actually allowed or encouraged.

So I still feel like I'm going into this blindfolded and with both hands tied behind my back.

Well, I find that when I adopt a new eating style I go from "Oh crap, what do I eat now"? To eventually finding lots of recipes and so on. When you think about it, people probably only eat a few dozen foods combined in different ways.

So jump in and start looking at the high fat recipe thread that was posted and even begin inventing your own concoctions if you can. Lots of existing recipes can also be manipulated to become high fat.

Start by throwing in some menus in fitday, that seemed to work for me. A lot of these foods can be eaten without anything fancy. Cheese, nuts, peanut butter, go down pretty easy.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Apr-11-09 at 14:32.
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