I can count the number of times I've had something made with sugar in the last 11 years without running out of fingers and toes. I might not even get to toes. And it would be way more than 25 pounds lost to make me slim, which ain't gonna happen or it would have already happened by now.

I've got doubts about how many people have eaten less sugar than I have over the last 11 years. I think I'm already paying the price exacted in this hypothetical without the reward.

Read with a subtle twist, Susan's response becomes "If you eat sugar you will never be thin," which is fairly laughable since I won't ever be thin if I *don't* eat it either. And I'm reasonably sure, what with relatives and friends in bikinis and all, that the 100% no sugar is untrue. I live at the ends of the earth but that doesn't make me... stupid. (Note, I twisted the response -- that is not what was said.)

I appear to be over wanting something sweet so the issue probably won't come up for another 4 - 8 months. But when it does, I'm probably going to head to a nice restaurant for a fine dessert.

Your subtle twist on Susan's response was my interpretation and why I posed the question to myself. I don't buy the premise, but it was an interesting hypothetical. I decided my answer is yes, I would go without sugar to be slim, assuming I could eat the sugar alcohols and sweeteners to get my sweet tooth indulged. But, I've already tried it, and going sugar free only isn't enough to get me to slim.

Val, I'm wondering how many people that start with our weights make it to slim no matter what they eat. I know a handful of people who had BMIs of 40 - 45 who make it to "normal" on the BMI charts but I don't know right off hand of any who made it to "slim." Well, except for a friend who had a very extreme version of a gastric bypass, and she spends her day trying to get enough nutrition in to stay alive.

I wasn't talking about sugar in isolation. I think deserts are a slippery slope. They're not just sugar, but sugar plus fat and sometimes grains. Together, they increase insulin to very high levels. Deserts go directly to fat storage unless you plan to run a few miles directly after eating one.

I don't know that desserts are a slippery slope for me. I've never eaten them often.

IMO, Susan's view of sugar is a bit on the extreme side.

For me, I have worked at finding a way to view my food so that I don't forbid anything all the time but eat certain foods only as a treat food once in a while.

As I've said, I do allow a small amount of sugar into my daily plan. I have not had trouble eating it in a small way. Maybe someday that will change but right now for me, this is just fine!

I also do not agree that I would be really slim if I didn't eat any sugar at all!

Sorry Susan, but you sound like a sugar nazi!

Have you tried erythritol? It's a sugar alcohol, but it doesn't cause digestive upset. It does have the "cooling effect" of other sugar alcohols, but I've found that in combination with artificial sweeteners (sucralose, sodium cyclamate), it's the closest to sugar without getting onto that slippery slope. By the way, I hate the taste of artifical sweeteners in general, and I find stevia to be absolutely disgusting--it interferes with my sense of taste.

This part I see too. When I had that bakery oatmeal cookie, it really made me feel ill from the combo of sugar, fat and grain! Yuk!! I won't be doing that again any time soon.

I had an oatmeal cookie a few days ago. It was a mistake because I knew I wanted sweet but I also knew I didn't want an oatmeal cookie. Cookies are the one thing I work to avoid like the plague because they have the perfect texture and when you bite into one sweet and butter burst into your mouth. The combination is deadly. I won't even make almond meal cookies with splenda because of how strongly I react to crisp.

My tendency for desserts is something along the lines of huckleberry mousse or a lemon curd parfait. Fat, flavorful, sweet but *without* the addictive texture. The last dessert I had in a restaurant, beyond a bite at a business dinner I hosted, was lemon cake again without the addictive texture. These things do not make me want to eat more -- in fact they seem to fill a void. Cookies on the other hand... deadly to me.

I don't know that there are many people who were in the high 200s, 300 lb range of weight that do get down to BMIs in the low 20s (or the visual equivalent if we disregard BMI).

I find it amusing sometimes to see the people that arrive at the main boards complaining of feeling fat and disgusting weighing less (at the same height as I am) than I do now. It's relative. It used to bug me, I used to judge it, but now I just find interesting, like looking at a sociological case study that is fascinating how our different experiences shape us differently.

It's like the guy who makes a quarter of a million dollars a year complaining about not making a half a million. If all you know is a world of making a half a million, earning half is a terrible place to be. But I feel like I was on welfare and now make two hundred thousand a year. As far as I know - I'm richer than I could have ever dreamed - even if I never get into a size 6 or 8 jeans.

I suppose I am, but I know how much insulin it takes to metabolize sugar and calorie for calorie it is the most fattening thing you can eat because it raises blood sugar so fast that the only thing that can happen is for it to be stored as fat. And everything else you eat with it goes along to the fat depot. The big jolt of insulin also increases insulin resistance. There is no upside to sugar. The more insulin you need, the more resistant to it you become. It is a lot worse than grains for laying down fat.

I made the comment about thinness because it takes work and self-denial to maintain. It isn't like thin older women have some kind of magic metabolism, but more often the case is they deny themselves deserts, restrict calories, work out. I saw Diane Von Furstenberg on Bravo last night. She looks fabulous and is probably in her 70s. She has a slight apple shape too and I would bet she works very hard at being thin.

It takes work and self-denial to maintain where I am now, and you really do not want to know exactly what went into getting to where I am now. It sucks to eat less than my 70 year old MIL who is 5'2" and pretty thin. It especially sucks when my 74 year old FIL is on my case about what I weigh, particularly when I get the comment that if I just ate at home like I eat at his house then I'd lose all that extra weight. That prompted my husband, who is inclined to keep his mouth shut on everything until someone is far, far over the line, to tell him that he had no clue what he was talking about and its a subject he needs to skip.

But that's okay -- I really don't mind being thought a lazy glutton anymore because I'm generally thinking something less than flattering about the person who holds that belief. I figure people like that are at about the same level as the ones who think I'm stupid because I'm fat.

I work pretty damn hard at maintaining where I am, too. Having sugar occasionally doesn't change that.

I was talking about me when I had my rant about sugar. Everyone would assume that I don't like sugar because I'm diabetic, but the fact is that I avoid sugar because I don't want the weight gain consequences of it. I think I should be able to express my feelings about weight issues without other people having a belief that I'm referring to them.

I didn't think you were referring to me, I was just adding my comments about what you were saying with my own feelings on the issue.

And, to be fair to anyone who might have taken your comments as a general comment on others, not yourself, your comments were phrased with "you" terminology, not "me" or "I" statements. It would be an easy assumption to make that you were suggesting everyone should cut back on sugar to the same degree you do.