I bought my liquid sucralose online from the USA, as cyndi mentioned.. it's lasted me forever cause you only use a drop or 2.. The brand I bought is sweetzfree; it's $18 for an oz, and includes shipping to Canada.

http://www.sweetzfree.com

I've been buying my bread ingredients from Choices, but recently from info here bought vital wheat gluten flour (and some other ingredients) from Famous Foods. It even appears to be from the same supplier (the labels are almost exactly the same).

Only one problem -- the famous foods 80% VWG gluten flour is ruining my bread. It's coming out like a brick. I've tried more water, less salt, more yeast, nothing works.

I've confirmed that its the VWG because I've substituted ONLY the FF VWG and my bread went from excellent to crap.

Anyone have any info or suggestions? I'd love to be able to use the FF stuff, because choices charges about 4X as much and I find that ridiculous.

Cory

Much to be learned if you read the thread through from the beginning, and other threads already answering the same question, both here in Canada and in the Kitchen Talk forum, too.

FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions!

Welcome to our world.

If it's a bad substitute ingredient, can't think how you can possibly substitute it yet again...seems like it may be old or maybe just very much drier, there can be a LOT of variation in batches. Usually bulk products, as you have noticed, ARE packed up by distributors under "no name" labels for stores to sell bulk.

However, NOT usually that much variation in the batches. I'd be checking/PROOFing your yeast(s), and also, make sure one knead only. Also try a slow rise (after checking your yeast). It's almost always the yeast and/or the temperature of the liquid/dough (which kills the yeast).

Good luck!

Hi IslandGirl

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not trying to substitute, just figuring out how I can continue to take advantage of the large bulk sizes at FF without ruining my bread. (Or, finding another source of larger quantities of VWG that don't have this problem). The only thing I can think of is that some preservative may have gotten into their flour, but I dont know what that would look like in the final result.

I've tested my yeast, and, all other ingredients in a very uniform manner, substituting out one ingredient at a time, and this is how I determined that it was the VWG from famous foods that was causing the problem. Otherwise, my bread comes out light, fluffy, huge and yummy. I've tried adding water, (1/8+ cup, even) and seen essentially no result (well, the loaf got a little smoother, but it was still pretty small and low and brick-ish.

If I substitute back VWG from Choices, my bread goes back to being perfect. That tells me, I'm not screwing up with bad yeast, bad temperature.

I'm hoping someone here has some experience with FF products and can tell me their experience or has a suggestion of how to "fix" this dough or point me in the direction of another VWG flour source here in the lower mainland.

thanks for your response!

Cory

One more thing to check: get the specs for the VWG (% of protein at a minimum) for both the Choices and the Famous Foods. Sellers are required by law to provide the ingredient/Nutrition Facts info on request, even if it means they have to get the label off the original bulk package or from their distributor/supplier.

The percentage of protein (how Vital Wheat Gluten or High Gluten Flour or Very High Protein Flour is actually differentiated), if different, is going to make a difference in your baking. If the difference is large, then so is the carb count (or starch) difference, meaning there is more (or less) for the yeast to feed on to produce the lifting/leavening power.

VWG should be somewhere between 75-85% gluten proteins, with very low fiber. The lower the protein the higher the starch the more likely the bread will "work".

I've been dealing with these kinds of ingredients for 10 years...and I get my VWG (last time I purchased it, anyway) from the bulk bins at the Save-On Foods store. They have (or used to) an 80% Gluten Flour. Maybe that will help.

Good luck. You can't alter/fix the recipe unless you know what the ingredients are (made of), and it sounds like you've checked everything else, indeed. And I tell you, I VERY much want to know the actual specifics of the flour from Choices...it may be "strong" flour which is sometimes described as high protein flour, but is somewhere between 14 and 20% protein, not 75%+ ...

Hope this helps.

Jude, I was wondering about that and hoped you would chime in again - I suspected that would be case but don't know the science or chemistry to back it up. I've learned the hard way that you can't usually substitute VWG with wheat gluten flour - haven't run into very high protein flour ... yet!

Hi Islandgirl

Very helpful and informative reply, thank you so much.

The FF product is labeled "VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN -- 80% pure vital wheat gluten"

The choices product is labeled "80% Wheat gluten flour", unfortunately neither has an ingredient list on the package.

I think you may have solved my problem though -- Save On Foods is a lot more convenient for me than either FF or choices.

I did see a product in the bulk bins at Save On called "Super Gluten" -- but I have so far not seen anything labeled VWG, or 80% anything. Do you think this is the stuff? It would be great if I can just go to Save On and buy this stuff in bulk.

If I go in to FF again soon I'll interrogate them about their product a bit and see what I can find out.

In the meantime, thanks so much for the pointer! I hope this 'super gluten' is the stuff you are talking about!

Cory

One ingredient products ARE ingredients and don't HAVE to have an Ingredient List, so to speak, though some do. But the originating wholesale bulk bag is supposed to have the equivalent of Nutrition Facts. And that's what should be available in the back, as FF bags their own (and sells wholesale to others in some kind of rebranding program, perfectly normal).

I'm better than 85% sure that the Super Gluten is the stuff I bought and had verified (couple of years ago, mind) as a brand variety (there are a few producers) of Vital Wheat Gluten Flour.

If you're going to interrogate, ask for the Bulk Products/Ordering Manager, and ask for the label information from the bulk bag, from the distributor. Cut to the chase...be nice, be firm...no problem!

Note (hi, Glenda!), VWG can be often subbed for WheatPI 8000 (an isolate, made by Cargill, IIRC) but not so much the other way around. If you've got some WheatPI 5000 or 6000, you'll have rather better luck with subbing both ways. Not so much the starch content as the subtype of gluten strands (not so long, ergo chewy/stringy, basically).

Thanks IG, you've been a great help. I'm going to try the super gluten.

Any faint hope ideas on what I can do with the 5 - 10 lbs of famous foods VWG I have here?

thanks

Cory

If any of it is in unopened bags, take it back and talk to the foods manager, explaining the problems you had. They may well take it back/refund you.

...but please get the NF info first

ps: you think you've got problems...I've got a good 50# of WheatPI 6000 to deal with. Sigh.

So, an update --

Super Gluten from save on foods bakes just like I would expect (yay!) and turns out a beautiful loaf.

Unfortunately I also discovered that using soy flour from famous foods *also* ruins my loaves. I can only speculate that they add some kind of preservative to their flours that then kills the yeast.

Super gluten from save on works for me though, and that gets me to a happy bready ending for now

Cory

Well I guess we'll never know, without the NF from any of the FF products. If they add anything, it's got to be on the label (no point in speculating there).

As I said, it may be a different product/different brand/different level of proteins/starches altogether -- and that goes for soy flour, any isolates (at least 3 kinds of wheat protein isolate and they all behave differently), and "vital wheat gluten".

If I get in to FF I'll be sure to try and find out, but with half my purchases from their not working very well I'm not eager to make a trip :/ Thanks for your help and advice IG!

Cory

Sooo.... now that you've got a product that works and produces a beautiful loaf, how about posting the recipe and method? There are more than a few of us who would like to indulge in bread once in a while and either can't find the products called for, or can't come up with the right recipe/proportions! Thanks in advance!