Well, I just personally disagree. I suppose I'm more of the hippie type back-to-earther who's trying to "buck" the SAD system. I completely understand the hard choices people have to make at the supermarket; I lived off canned tuna and ramen noodles for the first part of my adult life - not out of ignorance so much as necessity. I currently can afford to buy at least 50% of what I eat as organic, but that well possibly could change very soon; so I know not to get all high and mighty about it. (I do own a Toyota Yaris, but they can keep their hybrids at more than double the cost.) I just don't see any of the traditional low carbers supporting sustainable agriculture, but you're right, that's my limited view coming in here; that doesn't mean they don't exist.

As for the raw foodists, I sincerely believe that they get a bad rap. Of course the extremists in any camp can just poop their pants all they desire for all I care. I'm just not seeking an easy way out, because I've tried that and it's useless and horrible for our planet. And low carbers who are out there trying to figure out substitutes for the their SAD comfort foods will end up in the same situation as the low fatters. Unsatisfied.

Here's to real food for all of us.

LOL! The next time I come across a militant vegan, I am going to shake my fist at them and yell "Oh yeah? Well you can just POOP YOUR PANTS!" Screw that, I'm saying it to everyone.


I raise a drumstick to that!

hey this is no joke - I tried "Eat To Live" with just way too much veg and fruit and let me tell you the bathroom picture was not pretty. One can get "hemi's" from too much poop as well as too little if you get my drift.

Shall we start a poop-only discussion thread? I mean, really, that's something we can all contribute to. We could title it "Everything you've always wanted to know about poop, but were afraid to ask."

We have GOT to have a reputation among the other forum.lowcarber groups!?

Here in the southeastern US, Poop your pants is WAY too polite. They usually just say "S**t yer britches."

I was a vegan and vegetarian for 5 years, and they are just as misguided in their philosophies. Also, I use to frequent this raw food joint back in DC when I went to Howard Univ, Delights of the Garden. Definitely interesting, but I wouldn't say I have much in common with them outside of fresh veggies.

I know that this may be a little off topic and some may not agree with me, but the organic movement, which vegans and vegetarians proudly lead, is driven by profit and its philosophy is flawed; basically, as P&T would say: it's Bullshit! OK, if you call one produce "organic", what's the other one? Non-organic? Now, let's think about that. Does that really make sense? How about pesticide free? Not genetically modified (which is another topic that needs to be analyzed), etc.? No, because it's a big money making scam IMO. I base this on my experience as a hobbyist hydroponics gardener, so I know this argument very well as it is known in the industry that switching to growing so-called "organic" veggies damn near triples your profit! This is because to switch from being a "non-organic" farmer to an organic one, in my hydrosystem, will mean that I simply use a different, more expensive, liquid fertilizer that derives its vitamins and minerals from "natural" sources. LOL! There's nothing different about the grow cycles or even how you tend to them. In the states, especially with indoor growing, pesticides are not used as much because there are many "natural" products and "friendly" pests that help with insect control. You'd be amazed at how hi-tech greenhouses are nowadays.

I just laugh every time I go to the market in my neighborhood because they are selling inferior sized and quality veggies for boatloads of money because they were grown "organically". Hell, the decoration in the Organic section looks better than the damn vegetables. They are getting a dollar per bell pepper and cucumber!! I told my ex to look at these puny cukes; hell, they would have charged two bucks for the "non-organic" English slicing cukes I grew last summer, which averaged 12-14 inches, and I won't even mention my Armenian snake cukes! What a freaking scam. Why do you think Walmart's getting in on the picture. I'd like to see studies comparing organic and "non-organic" veggies compared side by side for nutrient content, size, etc. If anyone has some, please forward them to me.

Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't hold my tongue . . . uh . . . fingers anymore when I read about organic veggies.

Talking about "poop" have you guys read up on the new FDA approved over the counter diet pill Alli? Talking about some nasty side effects.

My nephew was doing Aquaponics (I think that's the right word) where fish fertilize the water for your veggies. I thought that was interesting.

That's what I'm talking about Nancy!! I think that this is a system that every LCers should look into having. The waste from the fish is recycled to fertilize the crops with very little, if any, waste water or run off! I really encourage you guys to do a net search or check out wikipedia for aquaponics. I believe Talapia is the main fish that is used in this setup. Can you imagine, picking fresh, organic veggies , from your garden to saute and cook with the fresh fish you just filleted?

Doesn't it require a lot of space and equipment to do? It is truly fascinating stuff.

I was a vegetarian for about 2 years, allowing dairy and fish. That's what got me interested in organic gardening, and I've tried to keep a small garden ever since.

Regarding the smallish vegetables, I'm not sure where you get them, but the local organic farms here in NC produce beautiful crops. In fact the organic choices often look healthier than the DDT stuff from Honduras and CA. As an aside, I usually go for the smaller vegetables anyway; I think the 2 foot cukes are monsters of modern agric-business. I'll save those for you, Muata. And I would bet on the flavor of smallish veggies over the John Holmes brand any day. Think Zucchini.

I'm not sure what's up with national organic standards. I know they're messed up. But I do trust farmers locally, and even visit the farms on occasion. I plan to visit a pasture-raised sheep farm this weekend. Bahahahah!

Anyway, to each her/his own. I'll continue talking to the raw foodies and vegetarians, though, because I see a good degree of concern in them. And if they act all high and mighty, I'll promise to eat 3 animals to every one they don't eat.

LOL! No, Proteus, they are not products of modern agri-business. It's all genetics and the type of cuke you are growing. Using the small vs large for flavor doesn't always work. For instance, I can grow you an heirloom beefsteak tomato that would be more flavorful and juicy than cherry tomato or small variety 'mater you find. Hey, my folks are from Shelby, NC--where are you in NC? Now, if you want to start talking about hybrid seeds and plants , then I understand your argument. All that being said, mature zucchini has nothing on picking them when they are babies and sauteing them with the flower still on them in butter!!!

Also, Proteus, if you've been gardening, I suggest you really look into hydroponics. Ok, I know that most people will tease you about growing marijuana, but that's until you pull in your first harvest. I actually mailed a half dozen green tomatoes from my outdoor hydro setup to my mother in Charlotte, NC! She was reminding me about them the other day since I won't have a garden this summer.

I think gardening and raising our own veggies is a great experience and great reward for everyone.

I'm glad I found this thread. I was just about to post something titled, "Involuntary Paleo?" ... and I see that a few of you ended up here because of certain food intolerances, or just plain feeling better on a whole foods diet.

I've had to ditch the dairy. Also ditched eggs there for awhile as part of my version of an elimination diet. I've brought back the eggs, in a limited way, but still off things like mayo and so on. I never really did eat peanuts or beans. Occasionally some almonds, or pecans - but that's about it.

Somehow, after ditching the dairy (because I had to), I'm eating more food - not recording or counting anything, and finally - the weight loss is happening again. It's basically meat, fish, veggies. Occasionally a tiny portion of nuts or a few berries here and there. Oh, and like I said, I put the eggs back in - but only a few times a week. No butter, no mayo, no dairy of any kind.

But um - I cannot see myself giving up the coffee.

I don't necessarily feel like I'm 'doing' Atkins anymore. Can't use my old recipes (dairy), not interested in junk, and am having to learn how to cook all over again it seems.

What about olive oil? Do you use it sometimes?

Maybe I'll be able to find some decent recipes in here. Something without whipped cream and splenda.

Great thread.

Welcome to the thread CitrusKiss. I really look forward to your insight. Hey, do any of you make your own mayo, like the version in Audette's book? Also, any pemmican connoisseurs out there with advice for a scared newbie like me?

I'm glad I found this thread too; hell, we're talking about aquaponics and making bags out of cow guts!!!

I've made my own mayo and it's really easy as long as you have a food processor! Tastes good too. I don't remember the Neanderthin recipe off the top of my head, but as long as it has eggs, salt, lemon juice, mustard, and oil in it it should work. I wouldn't use EVOO though - it will make a very strong-tasting yellow mayonnaise. I use light olive oil (it's the only thing I use light olive oil for...it's not optimal food, but I figure it's light years ahead of canola/whatever).

I made pemmican once too. I made both plain and one with dried blueberries, and the one with blueberries in it was better by a mile. Here's what I did...I went to Whole Foods and I asked the butcher for some pork fat. They gladly gave me about 2lbs of the stuff for free. I also got 2lbs of bottom round roast. I brought the fat home, cut it into small pieces, and rendered it over really low heat until I felt like it was done. Meanwhile, I froze the beef for an hour, then took it out and sliced it into very thin strips. Then I dried them out in my dehydrator. I pulverized them in the tiny dinky little food processor I had at the time, then poured the rendered fat over top until it was moist. At this point you can add salt and/or berries and refridgerate it until the fat sets. Then I packed it up in wax paper and gave it all to my cousin who was biking up the whole west coast! He told me later it was a lifesaver. He said the rest of the food he brought wasn't calorically dense enough for its weight and he had been losing weight steadily (he was stick thin to begin with) until he stopped at my place and I loaded him up with the pemmican.

You know, we should start a whole pemmican making thread instead of having it get lost in a larger one!



I love this board.