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  #61   ^
Old Wed, Apr-18-07, 20:28
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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On the subject of cold water... I was reminded of heat shock proteins! I think Dr. Eades blogged about it but basically when we're exposed to very high temperatures our body produces these proteins. They had some interesting properties like they help keep the protein in your body from denaturing and help your body fold protein correctly. I'll have to read that again.
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  #62   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 06:14
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kneebrace
And I'm glad you mentioned evolutionary principles, because it is beyond all doubt that humans would have spent the entire paleolithic IF'ing.


No, fasting is a luxury that you have, living in a modern 1st world country.

I'll look for the items that support this.

Last edited by ProteusOne : Thu, Apr-19-07 at 06:16. Reason: Addition
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  #63   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 08:41
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Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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I have to agree with kneebrace that IF is paleolithic. Proteus One, don't you think that a foraging and hunting society would have gone through frequent scarcity? If one relies on nature to provide, one relinquishes control over meal times.
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  #64   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 09:30
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
No, fasting is a luxury that you have, living in a modern 1st world country.

I'll look for the items that support this.


You'll be looking for a long time I'm afraid Proteus. There is universal agreement among prominent hominid evolutionary biologists that the palaeolithic was characterised by frequent short term scarcity punctuated by plenty. It's one of the few things they really do concur about. Art DeVany calls it 'random negative energy balance'. It happened often, and it didn't (still doesn't) just happen to proto - humans. Believe me, it's no (modern) luxury. It's a reality of natural selection.

In fact (and this will really put the cat among the pidgeons ) IMHO anyone intending to apply palaeolithic dietary principles but who doesn't IF is missing an essential part of the matrix. Remember, paleo IF would have been completely random. But it's a pretty safe bet that when food was consumed on any given day, it would have been at the end of a day's hunting/gathering.

I really don't mean to offend your personal notions of what eating paleo means Proteus. Of course you must work that out for yourself. But if you start using principles like 'evolutionary logic' then you must be actually be logical about it.
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  #65   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 09:33
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucysdream
I have to agree with kneebrace that IF is paleolithic. Proteus One, don't you think that a foraging and hunting society would have gone through frequent scarcity? If one relies on nature to provide, one relinquishes control over meal times.


Yes, to an extent, I believe that there were definitely times of scarcity, but I'm not sure if the scarcity was frequent, as on a week-to-week basis. I give those cavemen and women the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing what they needed, where to get it, and how to get it. They had to be a lot tougher and saavy than we can imagine just to get by. Nor do I think that it was a Garden of Eden.

Were there times of scarcity? Certainly. And in these times of scarcity, would it be not only beneficial, but essential, for the body to react with conservation? I'm not talking about how sudden bursts of energy and clarity may occur to a hungry hunter. Those kinds of moments were likely selected for, and this is what our adrenal systems and flight responses are all about. If one looks at societies where scarcity is felt on a week-to-week basis, one will discover that all of these peoples have one thing in commom: failure to thrive. I would suggest reading Colin Turnbull's The Mountain People for a horrifying example of this.

Regardless, I'm not saying that periodic fasting is a bad thing. I have done it and plan to do it additionally myself. My point is more one of evolutionary logic than to shoot the idea down. And I maintain that everyone should do what they believe is best for them. I also think that if you are already at or near your desired weight that fasting may be more beneficial than to someone who's got a ways to go.

Some good sources:
http://www.ultrametabolism.com/ (the book is very informative)

and
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400132

(I'm not normally a big fan of Dr. Weil, but he does have a cautious approach to anything extreme.)
"But fasting and near-fasting routines such as the Master Cleanse are not effective weight loss tools - they alter your metabolism in a way that actually may make it harder for you to lose weight or easier to regain the weight once you go back to the way you normally eat. Most people compensate for the deprivation of the regimen by increasing their caloric consumption afterward.

"If you really want to lose weight, forget about drinking lemon juice and maple syrup and learn the basic facts about nutrition and optimal health, including the glycemic index, anti-inflammatory diet, and recognize any unhealthy relationships with food."

Again, I want to stress that I am not anti-fasting! I'm just not going to adopt it as a (weekly) way of life for myself.

"Unhealthy relationships with food"? Anybody?
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  #66   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 10:13
pauleo pauleo is offline
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This discussion is mixing up different types of fasting. People who are doing IF are deviating from a traditional three-meals-per-day but are not doing the kinds of prolonged fast that would be associated with times of scarcity in a natural situation. And no doubt our paleo ancestors were very resourceful at managing their food supply, but that doesn't say anything about whether they ate mutiple times a day (like a traditional western approach) or once every day or so (like IF-ers).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
Yes, to an extent, I believe that there were definitely times of scarcity, but I'm not sure if the scarcity was frequent, as on a week-to-week basis. I give those cavemen and women the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing what they needed, where to get it, and how to get it. They had to be a lot tougher and saavy than we can imagine just to get by. Nor do I think that it was a Garden of Eden.

Were there times of scarcity? Certainly. And in these times of scarcity, would it be not only beneficial, but essential, for the body to react with conservation? I'm not talking about how sudden bursts of energy and clarity may occur to a hungry hunter. Those kinds of moments were likely selected for, and this is what our adrenal systems and flight responses are all about. If one looks at societies where scarcity is felt on a week-to-week basis, one will discover that all of these peoples have one thing in commom: failure to thrive. I would suggest reading Colin Turnbull's The Mountain People for a horrifying example of this.

Regardless, I'm not saying that periodic fasting is a bad thing. I have done it and plan to do it additionally myself. My point is more one of evolutionary logic than to shoot the idea down. And I maintain that everyone should do what they believe is best for them. I also think that if you are already at or near your desired weight that fasting may be more beneficial than to someone who's got a ways to go.

Some good sources:
http://www.ultrametabolism.com/ (the book is very informative)

and
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400132

(I'm not normally a big fan of Dr. Weil, but he does have a cautious approach to anything extreme.)
"But fasting and near-fasting routines such as the Master Cleanse are not effective weight loss tools - they alter your metabolism in a way that actually may make it harder for you to lose weight or easier to regain the weight once you go back to the way you normally eat. Most people compensate for the deprivation of the regimen by increasing their caloric consumption afterward.

"If you really want to lose weight, forget about drinking lemon juice and maple syrup and learn the basic facts about nutrition and optimal health, including the glycemic index, anti-inflammatory diet, and recognize any unhealthy relationships with food."

Again, I want to stress that I am not anti-fasting! I'm just not going to adopt it as a (weekly) way of life for myself.

"Unhealthy relationships with food"? Anybody?
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  #67   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 10:36
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I think Dr. Eades blog covers the reason some of us are interesting in IF: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=278

Personally, I could care less whether paleo humans ate periodically or not (except curiousity), I want to do what is healthiest in my environment. And it would appear that IF gives some of the same benefits as CR, without having to reduce calories.
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  #68   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 11:04
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I think Dr. Eades blog covers the reason some of us are interesting in IF: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=278

Personally, I could care less whether paleo humans ate periodically or not (except curiousity), I want to do what is healthiest in my environment. And it would appear that IF gives some of the same benefits as CR, without having to reduce calories.


And if that is the case, I will quickly concur. I can't go on what just one Dr says, though.

I also agree that we may be hitting on a sticking point with regard to what we take to mean as "fasting." Fasting as a purposeful act is a modern cultural invention; in that sense it is a luxury. Going without food by necessity is quite another event, with different circumstances, and different outcomes. Mimicing the Paleo way as close as we can I'm all for - even if I have to regig on my own arguments (I'm not as emotional to them as the typed word may suggest .
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  #69   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 11:18
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Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
I also agree that we may be hitting on a sticking point with regard to what we take to mean as "fasting." Fasting as a purposeful act is a modern cultural invention; in that sense it is a luxury. Going without food by necessity is quite another event, with different circumstances, and different outcomes. Mimicing the Paleo way as close as we can I'm all for - even if I have to regig on my own arguments (I'm not as emotional to them as the typed word may suggest .


Proteus One, I meant to say that I do understand your sentiment. In this day and age, it really is a luxury to eat paleolithically. Hey, I don't see the poor person living in the ghetto eating grass-fed beef and organic veggies. There is the knowledge it takes to eat this way as well. Also if someone is trying to correct the problem created by modern-day excess, then perhaps it requires a modern method to counter-act it as well.

In any case, I also only approximate the life-style. Paleo people didn't sit in front of a computer all day. They were outside, were active, didn't deal with our kinds of stress. So though I feel our biologies make it so that we thrive on what our evolutionary ancestors ate, the total picture in terms of lifestyle may modify our needs.
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  #70   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 13:18
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
And if that is the case, I will quickly concur. I can't go on what just one Dr says, though.

I also agree that we may be hitting on a sticking point with regard to what we take to mean as "fasting." Fasting as a purposeful act is a modern cultural invention; in that sense it is a luxury. Going without food by necessity is quite another event, with different circumstances, and different outcomes. Mimicing the Paleo way as close as we can I'm all for - even if I have to regig on my own arguments (I'm not as emotional to them as the typed word may suggest .

Did you get a chance to read the article? Dr. Eades isn't claiming anything, he's just citing research that finds some interesting stuff with beasts that are IF'd. I think there is currently some IF research ongoing in humans now, from the same kinds of folks researching CR.

I think you do intermittent fasting, you don't recognize it as such. Do you eat that first meal of the day they call... *drumroll* "breakfast"? Break fast.... Well, you take that fast and stretch it out a bit (someone proposed 15 hours) and you've got IF.
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  #71   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 16:54
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Okey dokey. I've read Dr Eades post and a few other things. May I say that I'm warming up the idea without anyone saying "I told you so"?

In my defense, initially my perception of what fasting entailed was a bit different than those "in the know."

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  #72   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 18:25
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
Okey dokey. I've read Dr Eades post and a few other things. May I say that I'm warming up the idea without anyone saying "I told you so"?

Ah come on! I do so want to gloat!

The thing that interested me was the BDNF. I saw my Dad's brain really degrade as he got older, I really don't want that happening to me!
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  #73   ^
Old Thu, Apr-19-07, 19:59
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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NancyLC - You've got plenty to gloat about already, just look at your stats! You're doing great. I'm almost at the 25% mark myself. Maybe I'll celebrate by um, er..... fasting.
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  #74   ^
Old Fri, Apr-20-07, 00:36
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
Yes, to an extent, I believe that there were definitely times of scarcity, but I'm not sure if the scarcity was frequent, as on a week-to-week basis. I give those cavemen and women the benefit of the doubt when it comes to knowing what they needed, where to get it, and how to get it. They had to be a lot tougher and saavy than we can imagine just to get by. Nor do I think that it was a Garden of Eden.


Who's talking about a week to week basis? The IF we're discussing is on a daily (theoretically beneficial up to 48 hrs, ie when the free amino acid pool runs out). The trouble with the 'cavemen knowing what they needed, where to get it' idea is that they weren't the only ones in the know. Every bit of food was fiercely contested. Not just by the tribe up the garden (of Eden?) path, but by other species too. 'Just to get by'. Well said. The whole point is that just getting by involved a daily process of intermittent fasting. Remember we are definitely not talking about week to week scarcity. That is, for all sorts of metabolic reasons, not the best way to thrive.

Quote:
Were there times of scarcity? Certainly. And in these times of scarcity, would it be not only beneficial, but essential, for the body to react with conservation?


You keep saying this with almost the same dreary certainty that people go on trotting out the 'fat must make you fat' idea, as if it's somehow self evident. Proteus, I'll ask again, can you show me one iota of evidence that up to 48 hr low carb intermittent fasting (not just scarcity, calorie free - ie not eating) followed by eating well (don't forget these savvy paleo humans knew how and where to get a good fatty feed . What you're forgetting is that sometimes it just took them a bit longer) either slows metabolic rate or is not the most healthy way to nourish the human body.

Quote:

Regardless, I'm not saying that periodic fasting is a bad thing. I have done it and plan to do it additionally myself. My point is more one of evolutionary logic than to shoot the idea down. And I maintain that everyone should do what they believe is best for them. I also think that if you are already at or near your desired weight that fasting may be more beneficial than to someone who's got a ways to go.


Thanks mate . Unfortunately your point doesn't involve any evolutionary logic. In fact, you aren't really talking about up to 48 hr IF at all. You are talking about several weeks (at least) of calorie restriction. I've no doubt that does slow your metabolic rate. I pointed out to you earlier that the natural moderate calorie restriction of plain ole LC probably slows your metabolic rate somewhat (although my reading of this issue is that it would depend entirely on wether you had a lot of bodyfat to lose). The issue of wether that is a good or bad thing is for another discussion. But keep in mind that much shorter term intermittent fasting, for well understood metabolic reasons, has no slowing effect on metabolic rate. Here's the money quote for you Proteus:

Up to 48 hr fasting followed by feasting is not interpreted by human metabolism as scarcity, so why would metabolic rate be reduced?.

Prolonged caloric restriction well might. But let's be clear. We're not discussing that.


Quote:
Some good sources:
http://www.ultrametabolism.com/ (the book is very informative)

and
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400132

(I'm not normally a big fan of Dr. Weil, but he does have a cautious approach to anything extreme.)
"But fasting and near-fasting routines such as the Master Cleanse are not effective weight loss tools - they alter your metabolism in a way that actually may make it harder for you to lose weight or easier to regain the weight once you go back to the way you normally eat. Most people compensate for the deprivation of the regimen by increasing their caloric consumption afterward.

"If you really want to lose weight, forget about drinking lemon juice and maple syrup and learn the basic facts about nutrition and optimal health, including the glycemic index, anti-inflammatory diet, and recognize any unhealthy relationships with food."



Proteus, are you seriously suggesting that the good Dr even knows what the IF we are discussing is? Actually it reminds me a bit of the oft repeated no brainer that Low Carb dieters always regain the lost weight when they go back to eating the carby crap that put it there in the first place. And I hope you don't need reminding that Dr. Weil also thinks low carb is an 'extreme' diet.

Btw. what's lemon juice and maple syrup got do with IF, pray tell? Please don't insult us all by inferring that this 'cautious approach to anything exteme is more than the usual tired old innaccuracies by a breathtakingly misguided medical/ nutritional establishment.



Quote:
Again, I want to stress that I am not anti-fasting! I'm just not going to adopt it as a (weekly) way of life for myself.


Best of luck to you Proteus. But it would be a mistake to claim that any points you have made so far follow any kind of evolutionary logic. Particularly this last 'as a weekly way of life for myself'. Since when is the IF being discussed other than at most bi daily? (most people doing IF fast a maximum of 24 hrs).

Last edited by kneebrace : Fri, Apr-20-07 at 00:42.
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  #75   ^
Old Fri, Apr-20-07, 09:39
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Kneebrace, you're preaching. I have a different take on "evolutionary logic" than you do and I really don't care whether you understand/respect that or not. But there's no need to be rude. Read all the posts here. You'll see that I often accept even those ideas (and even this one) that I don't particularly like at first. Where is your iota of evidence? Evidence is a difficult thing to come by; it's not as if diet + outcome = 2 + 2.

And, btw, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a conservative approach to your own health, so long as you are willing to change when the need arises. There is something, however, wrong with believing your viewpoint is regarded as "the best of all possible worlds."
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