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  #91   ^
Old Tue, Feb-20-07, 09:39
JKK JKK is offline
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Plan: paleoish
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 171cm
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There isn't A or D vitamins in plants, thus not in sweet potato either. What plants have is betacarotene (and maybe some different carotenes?), which is converted into A vitamin in body. But it isn't the same thing as A vitamin, as your body doesn't convert very much of it into A. Some say it converts just enough, some say not enough.

I'm not sure, but I think there isn't any D vitamin precursors in plants (haven't ever heard of D precursors), but some mushrooms have D vitamin, D2, right?

Mammal organs don't seem a very good source for D vitamin, for example semi-wild reindeer liver has about 0,6ug of vitamin D per 100g of liver, cow kidney about 0,2ug. Is there some particular organs/glands that could be high in vitamin D?
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  #92   ^
Old Tue, Feb-20-07, 13:12
meatzrus meatzrus is offline
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Plan: paleolithic.
Stats: 10/10/20 Male 71
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I see what you mean JKK. i forgot the Vitamin A in sweet potatoes is beta-carotene. So if 1 medium sweet potato has say 200% RDA Vitamin A, how much approx is absorbed and turned into the good Vitamin A? is beta carotene conversion effective? are the results unsatisying like only 1% of the 200% is absorbed or something outrageous like that?!?!
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  #93   ^
Old Tue, Feb-20-07, 16:07
kallyn's Avatar
kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Pennsylvania
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The betacarotene conversion is really crappy. I just looked it up the other day, and it's like 10-15% IIRC.
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  #94   ^
Old Tue, Feb-20-07, 17:13
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Whoops! *************************
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  #95   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 09:11
capo capo is offline
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Posts: 518
 
Plan: -
Stats: -/-/- Female -
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Hmm, I got the Blue Ice CLO in the mail, and I've only taken two teaspoons of it since I got it, and man, it is really really fishy tasting. I have to pinch my nose to swallow it, and then when I let go of my nose, I can still taste the after-taste in my mouth. Ew, I can't imagine that the Butter oil would taste anywhere near as bad as the CLO, like kallyn said, but being that nutritious, it probably does taste nasty.

I got the UV lightbulb in the mail as well, but when I opened it up, the filament was broken. :< now I have to see if I can get a replacement bulb (and hope it doesn't get broken in the shipping process next time).

Alas, I haven't noticed a difference yet in my face, and I don't expect to for awhile. I've given up eating veggies and fruit because I don't see a need for them, much to the dismay of my mom who thinks I will inevitably end up in the hospital from a vitamin deficiency. I tried eating a helping of yams at lunch one day, and an hour after, I got a crash and felt really sleepy, so I've sworn myself off the vegetables (especially if they're super starchy ones).

On the organ meats..the Native American diet consisted of a lot of kidney, fat, and meat from caribou, squirrels, dogs (:<), seal, etc.. here's a site I found on what they ate typically:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi..._americans.html

Blah, all I ate yesterday was eggs and liver (yucky). Actually, when you're starving, rare liver doesn't taste bad. Maybe I'm just a picky eater.

I make beef broth out of beef bones every week, and I'm not sure how many vitamins/minerals are in it, but I'm guessing it's a lot, because of all the breakdown of bone. Perhaps there's a lot of collagen and vitamin A/D in it?..maybe.

I was really looking forward to getting myself all sunned up with that UV light and was going to rub coconut oil all over my skin, because the furnace has made it so dry, and a lack of CLO. Oh well, I'll probably have another bulb in a week if it doesn't get broken in the mail again. URggh.

Edit: I just checked the UV light again, and what do you know..there's a switch on the cord I wasn't turning on. Duh, my I can't believe I didn't see it. I'm so glad it works, now I'm going to try the before mentioned idea and warm up a little!

Last edited by capo : Wed, Feb-21-07 at 09:56.
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  #96   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 10:45
rk900's Avatar
rk900 rk900 is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Life Without Bread
Stats: 150/180/180 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Hi everybody,

It's been a while since I've posted here. I've been quite active over at the "zero-carb" forum these days. I have a couple of comments to stir the pot a bit ...

meatzrus : About those tribes that Weston Price found to be mostly agricultural (those that ate sweet potataoes, millet, squash, etc) -- he also found that they always included some form of animal food in their diet. For some agricultural tribes this was in the form of insects (up to 10% of the diet, according to the WAPF). Others held the belief that liver (especially raw) was a sacred food and fed this food to mothers-to-be and lactating mothers.

So, yeah, it's amazing that these veggie/grain eaters had perfect facial stucture, but they attained this through the same methods employed by other traditional cultures: Animal foods rich in fat-soluble vitamins (A & D especially) and zero processed foods.

Also, Weston Price found agricultural peoples to have the "worst" teeth of all traditional peoples, approaching 6% tooth decay in some populations. Compare this to carnivorous Native North Americans with 0%!

Lucysdream : IMO, it seems that you are making the same assumptions that many folks do about the nature of plants foods in the human diet. (1) That plants are best eaten raw due to their high enzyme content; (2) our ancestors primarily ate plants raw; and (3) plants lose nutrients through cooking, therefore more nutrients are available when raw.

To all of these assumptions, I say, "Malarky!" If you've ever spent time in a primitive living situation (as I have) or talked w/ folks who do this as a hobby/lifestyle, you'd find that most plant foods must be boiled, leached, pounded, soaked, roasted, fermented, etc. etc. before they are fit for human consumption. Sure, the nutritional content of raw plant foods looks great on paper, but they have to be cooked to render them more edible and more concentrated for eating in large amounts.

For example, raw berries are great right off of the plant, but how many berries can you eat until you get cramps and feel stuffed? Native peoples would have cooked these berries down into a concentrated syrup to reduce the fiber content and increase the density of the food. Unlike us crazy moderns, the natives knew that too much fiber/bulk was not a good thing, resulting in increased transit time (thus, less nutrient absorption) or, in some cases, constipation (the Inuit of Stefansson's studies).

Yes, raw plants have more nutrients on paper, but their nature in the human body is destructive unless cooked or very ripe (as in tropical fruits).

I have several examples in my own locale (desert southwest) that I can get into if the debate calls for it.

capo : About the bone/beef broth -- if you'd like to know the mineral content (calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc.) of your broth, I would suggest that you take a sample to a local water-testing company. It would be fascinating to know this information! I'd do it, but it's a bit hefty ($$$) for water-testing in my area.

forefather : I'm very much into the whole "primitive living" lifestyle. I have many friends and acquaintences who are actively pursuing this way of life. It's pretty fun, eh? I just got back from a week-long primitive gathering here in AZ. There's more throughout the year in all parts of the country -- ever attend?
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  #97   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 17:16
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Hi, RK. I tried to send you a PM without success. You mentioned a "zero-carb forum." I would really be interested in this b/c I am 100% carnivorous and am trying very hard to heal/restore my health from an unofficial IBS/Crohn's disease diagnosis (dietary approach based mostly on methods suggested in books like Breaking the Viscious Cycle and Life Without Bread, only I do no fiber or carbs). I have been 100% carnivorous for just over 3 monthes now. Where is this forum located? Can you send me a link?

Thanks, and I enjoyed your post... "Malarky!"

Nevermind - I found it

Last edited by Jayppers : Wed, Feb-21-07 at 17:41.
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  #98   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 20:47
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Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Posts: 88
 
Plan: Paleolithic
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'4"
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rk900, We can ultimately agree to disagree, but I have a friend working on his Ph.D. in archeology; his focus is mainly in the mediterranean (sorry if I'm spelling that wrong), but has general knowledge of all paleolithic dietary habits. He says the paleolithic people ate lots of veggies, especially raw greens. They did cook, but probably cooked the meat, while consuming veggies raw. Though I think there's evidence that root veggies were cooked as well. Look up any raw foods site, and they will tell you the benefits of eating raw. I have several raw foodie friends (most of them vegetarian or vegan. I know, ugh), but I have to tell you, they look beautiful. People need to consume live foods.

Do you have any links to studies or research that show eating only meat is a nutritionally sound? I would even take a theory. But to me, if the idea is to eat "paleolithically", we can't deny that the paleolithic people ate a preponderantly vegetarian diet.
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  #99   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 22:03
rk900's Avatar
rk900 rk900 is offline
New Member
Posts: 20
 
Plan: Life Without Bread
Stats: 150/180/180 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Here's the link to the zero-carb forum:Active No-Carbers Forum

Jayppers,

You're on a similar journey that I am, only I include some carbs here and there due to some fat digestion issues I have. If you can handle lots of meat/fat, you're a lucky dude, indeed! If my body (which is healing from 2.5 years vegetarianism, among other things) could handle boatloads of fatty red meat, that would be all that I would eat -- I swear! Zero-carb is, IMO, a good way to go.

Your facial changes and description of developing a nice round butt rings true for me, too. I may post some pics of myself before and after my year on low-carb, high-fat, lots o' meat -- big changes happened!
------------------------------------------------------

Heya Lucy -- thanks for the response!

That's interesting that your friend has found evidence of paleolithic peoples eating raw veggies -- how did he come to this conclusion? In other words, what is the evidence of this? I'm sure lots of fibrous matter would be found in paleo poo from plants, but how does one know that they were eaten raw?

There's no doubt that several paleo groups ate plenty of plant foods (!Kung bushmen, Australian aborigines, Amazonian groups, etc.), but I have read many times these folks were going to great lengths to render wild plant foods edible. Check out this article on theAustralian Aborigines. Here's some key quotes:

(1)"Plant foods required more careful preparation since many of them were difficult to digest and even poisonous. Aboriginal women spent many hours washing, grinding, pounding, straining, grating, boiling and cooking plant foods."

(2)"Fern roots formed a staple article of food in many regions. They were dug up, washed, roasted on hot ashes, then cut into lengths, pounded between a pair of round stones and eaten. Other types of fern roots were dried in the sun, lightly roasted to remove the hair rootlets, then peeled with the fingernails, chopped on a log to break the fibers, mixed with water and other ingredients and finally rounded into a lump for cooking. "

(3)"Many seeds are placed in "dilly bags" – leaching baskets – and set in running water for anywhere from a number of hours to many days – a process that served to remove anti-nutrients and toxins found in many seeds and legumes. "

(4)"Certain flowers rich in nectar were gathered in the early morning and steeped in water. This was drunk fresh and also set aside to ferment. Some tribes pounded flowers in a wooden dish, then drained the liquid into another dish and mixed this with the sugary parts of honey ants. This mixture was allowed to ferment for eight to ten days and a brew was made to drink."

It doesn't seem that the plant staples of this paleo diet are best eaten raw! I would venture to say that this is the pattern all around the world -- people cooked and processed plant foods to make them easier to digest. Even the flowers (4), that a raw foodist might think would be good in a salad, are processed to minimize fiber and maximize digestability (through fermentation and steeping).

As for raw foodists looking beautiful -- I wouldn't attribute this to their raw veggie-rich diet. They probably look better than most folks on a SAD due to the reduction in processed food consumption, which does wonders for anybody. I've met several raw-foodists who have had to quit after a year or two due to the unsustainability of the diet. I'm sure that Jayppers has some input on this one.

We need to consume live foods? Well, I guess I'm okay eating rare meat and liver then! But raw plant foods? Count me out! (except for certain ripe fruits... for now)
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  #100   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 22:11
rk900's Avatar
rk900 rk900 is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Life Without Bread
Stats: 150/180/180 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Oh yeah. And as for an all-meat woe being nutritionally sound:

Pass the liver!

(scroll down a bit to see the chart I'm referring to)
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  #101   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-07, 22:38
meatzrus meatzrus is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: paleolithic.
Stats: 10/10/20 Male 71
BF:
Progress: 0%
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rk900, thanks for your input on the agricultural/Kikuyu issue, do you know for sure that the Kikuyus ate meat and such? It still baffles me, just their tribe... There was no mention that they ate insects or meat at all, just agricultural foods like sweet potatoes, beans, and millet.

so what really is the ultimate food then, just pure saturated fat high in Vitamins A & D? does it matter if this saturated fat is from meat or dairy? for example is the saturated fat and vitamin A in raw milk the same as saturated fat from the fat of an animal? im still perplexed about dairy, but i have to keep drinking my raw milk and eating spoons of butter to keep my calories up, without dairy i'd be anorexic. i can only eat so many high fat hamburgers and fatty fish and steaks each day, the dairy is a nice change and it adds good calories which im desperate in need of.

im starting to think that meat is not so much prized, its the organs! think about it, you kill a whole animal and the thing you go for is what covers 98% of its body?!?!? wouldn't you look for those "prizes" like the organs where there are only 1 in each animal? im really doubting steaks now, im upping my intake of organs, i eat liver everyday now.
i would love to try brains and other fatty organs maybe an eye maybe some penis haha if i can get some where are all these mystical organs?
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  #102   ^
Old Thu, Feb-22-07, 10:03
JKK JKK is offline
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Plan: paleoish
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 171cm
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meatzrus,

Maybe you could ask your nearest butcherer about those organs? If you don't know him/her personally, it's probably best to say you're giving them to your dogs.

But pass the penis and get testicles insteaded. Penis is extremely tough meat. In fact there isn't any meat in it.. just skin, blood vessels etc.

I've seen some sources saying that organs account for about 10% of body mass of little animals (cat nutrition). Maybe it's different for bigger animals.
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  #103   ^
Old Thu, Feb-22-07, 11:07
kallyn's Avatar
kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Pennsylvania
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rk900:
Whenever I read about plant foods being so highly processed by hunter-gatherers, it makes me wonder if those vegan raw-foodists have read read a scientific paper in their lives. Seriously. I came to the conclusion myself long ago that if you were going to eat raw things, meat and maybe fruit would be the foods to eat raw. Definitely NOT veggies. I've never met any vegan raw foodies in real life, but in their pictures on the internet I always think that they look unhealthy and strange. They have a "look" to them...their skin looks plasticy or something, and there is a hollowness around the eyes that just doesn't look right to me. And they are all shiny. It really reminds me of the practice of feeding horses arsenic to make their coats shiny - yes, the horse looks "nice", but it is being poisoned.
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  #104   ^
Old Thu, Feb-22-07, 13:18
rk900's Avatar
rk900 rk900 is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Life Without Bread
Stats: 150/180/180 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
rk900, thanks for your input on the agricultural/Kikuyu issue, do you know for sure that the Kikuyus ate meat and such? It still baffles me, just their tribe... There was no mention that they ate insects or meat at all, just agricultural foods like sweet potatoes, beans, and millet.


Well, meatzrus, considering that Price never found a fully vegetarian group (that is, a group w/ no animal products in the diet), I would say that the Kikuyus most likely consumed animal foods in one way or another. Here's some good info from another WAPF article :

"Largely vegetarian Bantu tribes such as the Kikuyu and Wakamba were agriculturists. Their diet consisted of sweet potatoes, corn, beans, bananas, millet and Kafir corn or sorghum. They were less robust than their meat-eating neighbors, and tended to be dominated by them. Price found that vegetarian groups had some tooth decay—usually around 5% or 6% of all teeth, still small numbers compared to Whites living off store-bought foods. Even among these largely vegetarian tribes, however, dental occlusions were rare, as were degenerative diseases.

Many investigators have mistakenly claimed that Bantu groups consumed no animal products at all. Some tribes kept a few cattle and goats which supplied both milk and meat; they ate small animals such as frogs; and they put a high value on insect food. "The natives of Africa know that certain insects are very rich in special food values at certain seasons, also that their eggs are valuable foods. A fly that hatches in enormous quantities in Lake Victoria is gathered and used fresh and dried for storage. They also use ant eggs and ants."3 Other insects, such as bees, wasps, beetles, butterflies, moths, cricket, dragon flies and termites are sought out and consumed with relish by tribes throughout Africa.4 These insects are rich in the fat soluble factors found in blood, organ meats, fish and butterfat. It is significant that the vegetarian groups practiced the feeding of special foods during gestation and lactation. Apparently carnivorous groups found no need to supplement the diet, as it was already rich in the factors needed for reproduction and optimum growth."
------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, another website has the Kikuyu rasing cattle and using goats and sheep for "ritual sacrifice" -- which I'm assuming means that these animals were eaten in some way or another.

To answer your other question ...
Quote:
so what really is the ultimate food then, just pure saturated fat high in Vitamins A & D? does it matter if this saturated fat is from meat or dairy? for example is the saturated fat and vitamin A in raw milk the same as saturated fat from the fat of an animal?


The ultimate food, IMO, is: all parts of a cow raised on pasture (muscle meat, organ meats, broth from bones, fat, etc.). The nutrient content and nature of the food varies considerably with the food that it eats. Grass-fed is best w/ grain-fattening before processing (this mimics the natural process of cattle feeding on carbohydrate-rich seed heads during certain parts of the year). Lean meat is not good!

Ideally, we'd all be eating wild game of all kinds, but this is unrealistic (although achievable). This would provide awesome health, providing our digestive organs were up to par. It'd be nice to be eating moose, elk, wild salmon, whale meat, seal meat, etc.

Now, being a very practical person, I feel that eating factory-reared meat is fine. Especially if this is all you can afford or all that you have access to. Many folks say that this kind of meat has unhealthy levels of hormones and antibiotics that affect our health. This may be more malarky, or it may be somewhat true. Here's one skeptic.

The best health I've ever experienced in my life is the way I feel right now. I live off of factory-reared chicken, egg yolks, sardines, and pork, along w/ easily digested carbs (ripe/cooked fruit and coconut water). I'm still healing my body, but I'd like to be able to eat tons of fatty red meat as the main component of my diet along w/ the above foods and fish now and again.

The ultimate food is red meat. Of course, get your A & D from occasional liver (or eat it daily until it just doesn't taste as good -- I feel like this is a good sign that my body has ample stores of A for a long time), cod liver oil, lard, butter (if tolerated), egg yolks, and other animal fats as needed. Listen to your body!
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  #105   ^
Old Thu, Feb-22-07, 13:41
rk900's Avatar
rk900 rk900 is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Life Without Bread
Stats: 150/180/180 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Hi kallyn,

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I've met vegans here and there, and these folks never looked all that healthy to me. I've never met any long-term vegan/vegetarians that weren't irritable and very attached to their way of eating. I always felt a weird "vibe" from these people.

A side note: I attended a gathering here in AZ for Primitive Living Skills (lots of earthy people come to these gatherings). I met this guy who claimed to be a vegan, and I was not impressed. He ate constantly, acted kind of arrogant, wouldn't let other people finish their sentences, and seemed like he was "forcing" a healthy appearance, though I sensed his energy levels were way low.

I chatted w/ him about Weston Price and asked him if he'd heard of this guy named Storm, who is a long-term raw-foodist. He hadn't heard of him. I went on to explain that this Storm guy and his wife were on a raw-food vegan diet and even had kids over several years while never straying from the diet.

He seemed very interested in this. Then I dropped a bomb on him! I said that this guy's kids exhibit the same dental and facial deformities that the processed-food eating cultures of Weston Price's studies do. He was kind of silent and somber at this point.

The next day, I saw him pile on several servings of eggs on his plate. Throughout the day, I saw him being far more social, laid-back, and he seemed altogether more stable and happy! He never said anything about the eggs to me, but he sure was having a good time!

To see the raw vegan family I'm talking about, check out the pictures on their website:The Garden Diet
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