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  #76   ^
Old Sun, Feb-18-07, 21:16
meatzrus meatzrus is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: paleolithic.
Stats: 10/10/20 Male 71
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capo, I love your posts and all you give to the thread, but i had to reply to your statement about your cheekbones going up and down in a period of 24 hours?!?!?!? im not offending you, but how in the hell can you tell if your cheekbones moved just because that day you didn't eat your cod liver oil? thats insane!! maybe you got sunburn because sunburns can puff up your face and take away the "edge" of the cheekbones.
i dunno, it just sounds really fake that your cheekbones are growing that much that you can SEE it in a period of 24 hours go up and down. your cheekbones wouldn't grow Back Down thats just insane..
also, about this cod liver oil. yes, cod liver oil does have the ever-so-valuable fat vitamins A and D, but key word its a SuPPleMent!!! it'd be so much better for you to get the vitamins from real food, like fish. Fish is an excellent source of those fat vitamins, meat is not.
this is another confusing thing i found out today. 4 oz of beef has Zero vitamin A. when i found that out i said to myself WTF?!?!? so screw beef then, it might be a meat but fish to me has way more fat soluble vitamins and fish is fatty in itself, so i choose fish as my main meat, i consume about a pound of fish daily and i feel so great.

so to conclude ha, capo im not offending you i love your contributions, but you have to explain more about this whole cheekbones going up and down thing, it just cannot be..
so we all know that Vitamins A & D are the main fat soluble vitamins for good development, but some of us are choosing the wrong foods. Fish is excellent as it has both vitamins A and D. Raw dairy is excellent as well because it has both Vitamins A & D. beef however, is questionable to me and i'd love to have a debate (friendly) with you guys about why beef doesnt have vitamin A. so then that also leaves Organ meats which definitely have Vitamins A & D, such as liver...
again, i didn't mean to get so InSane about the cod liver oil but i am because its a supplement, and to rely on something like that to make your bones grow as you say i dunno, it'd be better to eat the actual foods, as a complete package of those vitamins, in the natural form.
also, 1 more thing hahaha, you said you've been eating beef liver a ton in the last couple weeks. TheRe You Go!! thats it, thats the key to your growth, the liver. yes, i think the cod liver oil is helping a bit, but the beef liver is the key to why you are growing so much. it makes sense because in your previous posts that was the other new thing you added.
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  #77   ^
Old Sun, Feb-18-07, 23:09
Lucysdream's Avatar
Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Posts: 88
 
Plan: Paleolithic
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'4"
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meatzrus, that's right. Lean meat does not have A and D. The fat part does. In raw milk too. If you notice, skim milk in stores have added vitamins A and D because the fat is left out, but these are synthetic and should be avoided. Price pointed out that traditional societies always ate the fatty part of the meat and organ meats, sometimes throwing out the lean muscle meats. I think red meat is higher in some valuable nutrients like B's and iron. So I try to eat a variety. Fish is definitely good, but they should be the fatty kind of fish too.
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  #78   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 12:17
capo capo is offline
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Posts: 518
 
Plan: -
Stats: -/-/- Female -
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meatzrus, I understand you think it's a stretch that my cheekbones couldn't be a little less prominent in one day; but you have to understand that in the cod liver oil I was taking, I was getting at least 3-4 teaspoons of CLO daily, which amounted to 15,000-20,000 IU Vitamin A and 1,500-2,000 IU Vitamin D daily; totally cutting myself off of that supply of vitamins A and D affected me; Sure, there's plenty of vitamin A/D in beef liver, but how much? I think being out in the sun all day and consuming fatty meat (which I have not been) and some liver would be best for conserving and adding up my vitamin A/D/C and collagen so that I can grow some more.

Hopefully, today or tomorrow I'll get the new high vitamin Cod liver oil (Brand: Blue Ice) that the Weston Price recommends. However, I also need to get more natural fatty meat into my diet. The UVA/UVB radiation reptile light will be a bit of an experiment, but if I notice any other physical changes other than getting hot from its heat, I'll let you guys know.

And meatzrus, it's not like my whole cheekbones have sunken into my face, I just feel like they're one or two millimeters less high and my jaw bone is just slightly less wide. It's not a big change, and hopefully it'll go back to the way it was when I incorporate cod liver oil into my diet; I think if I could get grass fed fatty cow meat/liver into my diet there'd be less of a need for the cod liver oil, so perhaps I'll try ordering some frozen fatty meat and livers from a site recommended by Weston Price. Because liver is getting old, really fast.

Edit: Lucysdream..what are the fatty/good types of fish and marine life to eat? I thought salmon had a lot of polyunsaturated fat in it, and tuna/bigger sea creatures have a lot of mercury in them. Are there still natives living in Canada, and is it easy to accommodate to their lifestyle? I've thought about this 'being one with nature and removing myself from civilization.' Perhaps it is just a dream.
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  #79   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 13:22
kallyn's Avatar
kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
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Location: Pennsylvania
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I really really really doubt that your actual skeletal structure is changing. Maybe your face looks different, but I would bet dollars to donuts that it is the flesh on your face that is changing.
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  #80   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 14:09
meatzrus meatzrus is offline
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Posts: 49
 
Plan: paleolithic.
Stats: 10/10/20 Male 71
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I doubt it as well but Capo this is your issue you know more about it than we do, i really doubt though that your skull would "grow back down" like you say, once your skeletal features are growing to a certain size they don't just go back down because the nutrients are compromised.
Fatty fish like salmon is pretty much all i eat, salmon is low in mercury & high in everything good for us.
Does anyone else think it's pretty different that the only foods high in Vitamins A & D minus nasty vegetables are fatty fish, organ meats, raw milk & dairy products, & sweet potatos?!?!?!
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  #81   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 14:16
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Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Plan: Paleolithic
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'4"
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I second the suggestion to eat salmon. I try to eat wild-caught salmon because the farmed ones have the same problems as factory-farmed meat. The feed is less nutritionally adequate, and they are given antibiotics to prevent the wide-spread disease that runs amock in the crowded conditions.

The "good" fat in salmon is omega-3, not the polyunsaturated omega-6. Most people get lots of omega-6, but not enough omega-3. Over consumption of omega6 in relation to omega-3's causes health problems, according to the Weston Price foundation.
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  #82   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 14:17
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Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
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Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kallyn
I really really really doubt that your actual skeletal structure is changing. Maybe your face looks different, but I would bet dollars to donuts that it is the flesh on your face that is changing.
I agree, Kallyn. Perhaps over many many years as the skelatal structure is replaced/renewed by new cells (I believe it is renewed every 7 years? I think?) it could very slightly change, but I also believe the changes anyone would notice at someone like Capo's age would be 99.9% from increased fatty deposit. That is exactly what has happened for me - it is not bone structure changes, it is that I've plumped up due to my very high animal fat intake.

Capo, I also agree that you should try to incorporate more fatty meats into your diet. If you're looking to "grow", in the add a little fat and muscle sense (not bone), then you need to be getting plenty of fat to replace the carbs that you are not getting. It is important for low-carb. diets to be high-fat... I eat eggs at almost every meal and add coconut oil to make sure I'm getting enough fat to gain weight - it's working! . Check this article out - Why low carb. diets must be high fat not high protein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatzrus
also, about this cod liver oil. yes, cod liver oil does have the ever-so-valuable fat vitamins A and D, but key word its a SuPPleMent!!! it'd be so much better for you to get the vitamins from real food, like fish. Fish is an excellent source of those fat vitamins, meat is not.
Organ meats are excellent sources of vitamins A and D, and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe natural (and especially high-vitamin) cod liver oil is a better source of natural vitamins A and D than beef or other livers. Liver is next on the list though. Because of this, I don't really think of CLO as a supplement, more like just an extract. I think it important to ensure you are eating plenty of long-chain and medium-chain fatty acids along with the CLO (butter, beef, lard, coconut oil) to ensure excellent absorption (hence why some sell CL/Butter oil - the butter provides a great source of long-chain fatty acids that aid in the absorption and utlization of the CLO vitamin and EFAs) - or something like that
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  #83   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 14:19
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucysdream
The "good" fat in salmon is omega-3, not the polyunsaturated omega-6. Most people get lots of omega-6, but not enough omega-3.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe n3 EFAs are also polyunsaturated fatty acids, like n6s.
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  #84   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 14:25
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzrus
Does anyone else think it's pretty different that the only foods high in Vitamins A & D minus nasty vegetables are fatty fish, organ meats, raw milk & dairy products, & sweet potatos?!?!?!
I'm not sure what you mean by "different," but I've always known that beef sold in markets does not contain vitamin A or D. It is said that true old-school hunters/gatherers, after making a kill, would cherish the organs/innards and would throw the lean flesh meat to the dogs. My guess is that the greater amount of nutrients like A & D and fat content is why.

Have you ever seen a wolf or dog kill a sheep or other animal? They gut them and feast on their innards - not their bodily flesh.

I personally wish I had a better taste for organ meats, but I simply prefer flesh meat like beef steaks, fish, and turkey thighs over liver and such. This is why I get plenty of CLO and vitamin D gels on a daily basis. It really isn't an excellent compromise, but I do still get liver in on my plate at least once or twice a week.
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  #85   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 16:39
capo capo is offline
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Plan: -
Stats: -/-/- Female -
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Progress: 100%
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Perhaps you guys are right that my bone structure isn't changing, but I'll have to see if I change (grow) any when the CLO comes in the mail. And about taking butter with it...is land of lakes butter okay, or do I need to be ordering special butter online or seeking out unhomogenized butter? I do get coconut oil as well, but is this as good as butter? Where do you guys get your fatty meat (other than buying wild caught fish at the grocery store); do you seek out livestock farmers who have grass fed cattle?

I'd love to get some chickens and put them in a coup in our back yard, but my mom thinks it would be too much work; perhaps we can buy natural eggs from some farmers around here. Blah, it'd be so much easier to just own our own. And goats too.. UGH! It makes me so frustrated sometimes, for obvious reasons.
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  #86   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 18:46
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capo
Perhaps you guys are right that my bone structure isn't changing, but I'll have to see if I change (grow) any when the CLO comes in the mail. And about taking butter with it...is land of lakes butter okay, or do I need to be ordering special butter online or seeking out unhomogenized butter? I do get coconut oil as well, but is this as good as butter? Where do you guys get your fatty meat (other than buying wild caught fish at the grocery store); do you seek out livestock farmers who have grass fed cattle?
I get my fatty meat and eggs from Whole Foods - haha - I'm too lazy I guess. I personally don't buy into the whole the n6 and n3 ratio is off - the difference is so minimal anyway because even grass-fed beef is not high in n3 EFAs... so it's always low in n3s (but I know, I know... there's a little higher n6 in it from the chow they feed them), but I guess I feel I compensate adequetly with CLO and such. I guess I sacrifice quality for convenience. Until I win the lottery or have a serious raise, I'm gonna be a Whole Foods customer for a while.

As far as butter being better - it does have vitamin A in it, which coconut oil does not, and although Weston Price advocates grass-fed butter as the special activator factor or something, I've also read that coconut oil is actually better for the utlization of the CLO vitamins and EFAs due to the medium-chain fatty acid content which butter lacks. I personally am not a dairy fan, even though Weston Price.org advocates it a ton. I do not eat butter or cheese any longer - basically no dairy - b/c it just doesn't agree well with me anyway (I have IBS/Crohn's). I also guess I worry about betacellulin in the stuff. Overall, butter and dairy products are fairly recent additions to human nutrition, and I just am not comfortable eating it since I always imagine that the completely natural way of obtaining it is by sucking on a cow's thingy. I'd rather get my fat from other animal sources and just stick to coconut oil and such. Just my opinion... correct me if I'm wrong on anything! Just rambling really.

Last edited by Jayppers : Mon, Feb-19-07 at 18:58.
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  #87   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 20:51
Lucysdream's Avatar
Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Posts: 88
 
Plan: Paleolithic
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 5'4"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayppers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe n3 EFAs are also polyunsaturated fatty acids, like n6s.


You're right. I stand corrected.

Capo, I try to buy all my meat products from pasture-fed farms. You can see if there is any local farms near you at www.eatwild.com. To me it's important to buy grass-fed animals for a lot of reasons. But one thing is for sure, I would definitely not eat fat (including butter) from a conventional source. All the toxic crap they put in the feed ends up in the fat. And what they feed them is disgusting. It includes chicken poop with the newspaper and all and restaurant scraps. I'm not a purist. I'll go to a friend's house and eat whatever they have. But for daily purposes, I only eat grass-fed, and barring that organic. But even organically fed cows are given grain and soy, which to me is not the optimal diet for a cow. Chickens need grass and insects. "Vegetarian feed" does not give chickens the EFA's that end up in eggs.

Butter contains catalysts that help in the absorption of minerals, and has other factors like CLA and what Price called the X factor. Butter oil is super concentrated, so Price used the latter in healing. I suppose taking butter would work to some degree. Let us know how that goes.
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  #88   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 21:29
kallyn's Avatar
kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Pennsylvania
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Weston Price recommended butter oil be taken in conjuncture with CLO, not just butter. And even more specifically, butter oil made from raw butter from grassfed cows eating June pasture (the June pasture is the really important bit). They make the butter oil by centrifuging the butter and collecting the concentrated part. WAP himself used to only get butter oil from cows from a certain town in Texas that was famed for the massive amounts of minerals in the soils (the inhabitants all had great teeth from eating the produce and drinking the water from that area), and he noticed a difference if he used butter oil from anywhere else (it was always inferior). So maybe the butter oil isn't really that important nowadays, because we almost certainly aren't getting it from that highly mineralized part of TX.

The people that make the blue ice CLO also sell butter oil on their site. I ordered some and I think it is pretty nasty smelling and tasting, but when I remember to take it I make myself hold my nose and swallow it like a pill. I've never taken it regularly enough to notice a difference in my health. I took some yesterday and today, maybe I can keep it up a little and report back. You know, for all my tinkering, nothing really seems to work for me as well as just LC with little to no dairy.

P.S. I bet some WAPF members would kill to live where I do! There is a grassfed raw dairy farm not even 10 minutes from my house. But I never avail myself of it - I don't find the need for dairy. I once bought a gallon of milk from there and then had no idea what to do with it! Their butter was very very bright yellow, but I could only use up half of it before it went bad.
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  #89   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 23:36
meatzrus meatzrus is offline
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Plan: paleolithic.
Stats: 10/10/20 Male 71
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Something about butter confuses me. I use raw 100% grass fed butter and I saute all my meats and fish in this butter & i cook up sweet potatos in this raw butter, my question is am I getting the nutrients from all this butter, even if its heated? Meaning, I use so much butter when cooking, butter to me tastes better warm and liquid and i use many tablespoons when frying meats so is this butter getting absorbed into the meat and im absorbing the nutrients from it? Or do i Need to eat raw butter right out of the fridge, cold and not heating it?!?!
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  #90   ^
Old Mon, Feb-19-07, 23:40
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Snacky Snacky is offline
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Posts: 225
 
Plan: atkins/keckwick
Stats: 282/248/210 Male 73
BF:%/34%/25%
Progress: 47%
Location: KC area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capo
Perhaps you guys are right that my bone structure isn't changing, but I'll have to see if I change (grow) any when the CLO comes in the mail. And about taking butter with it...is land of lakes butter okay, or do I need to be ordering special butter online or seeking out unhomogenized butter? I do get coconut oil as well, but is this as good as butter? Where do you guys get your fatty meat (other than buying wild caught fish at the grocery store); do you seek out livestock farmers who have grass fed cattle?

I'd love to get some chickens and put them in a coup in our back yard, but my mom thinks it would be too much work; perhaps we can buy natural eggs from some farmers around here. Blah, it'd be so much easier to just own our own. And goats too.. UGH! It makes me so frustrated sometimes, for obvious reasons.



heh heh i don't think you want the bones to change, you would be on tv with the geico caveman hawking insurance.
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