Of course veggies nowadays are different. But plant matter was still consumed. Here are some accounts of what basically amount to fossilized crap deposits.

http://www.mcmaster.ca/research/sci...cle_poinar.htm: The shape of these coprolites is due to the "astronomical" amounts of fibre in them, Dr. Bryant says. He estimates that the Hinds Cave inhabitants ate 15 times the daily fibre intake of present-day North Americans, mostly in the form of roasted desert plants, including agave and yucca...Through genetic reconstruction, he showed that in the 24 to 48 hours before relieving himself at the back of the shelter, one Hinds Cave resident had eaten a veritable Thanksgiving feast. The coprolite included evidence of pronghorn antelope, cottontail rabbit, packrat, squirrel and eight types of wild plants.

This page has a ton of abstracts listed: http://www.scirpus.ca/dung/human.htm

Here is a good one from that page:
Callen, E. O., and T. W. M. Cameron 1960
A Prehistoric Diet Revealed in Coprolites. The New Scientist 18(1, 7 July):35-40.
AEU SCI Q 1 N53 A classic paper; the beginning of scientific analysis of coprolites. Reports on the examination of coprolites from Huaca Prieta, Peru. Describes techniques used to rehydrate and examine coprolites. Shows that diet contained sea- food (shellfish, crabs, sea urchin) which was a major dietary component; not surprising for a site in a coastal location. Found seed of Capsicum (pepper), probably chili, also remains of beans (epidermal cells), identified as Phaseolus (green beans or lima beans) and Canavalia. Suggest that whole bean pods were eaten fresh. Some plant tissue identified as from cucurbit (squash); rinds and seeds were found in archaeological context. Long discussion as to what part of the squash was eaten; some authorities believe that only the seeds were roasted and eaten not the flesh. Perhaps some evidence of roots and tubers, as fibres were also found in coprolites. Reports on the abdominal contents of skeletonised body found in the deposits. Evidence for a varied diet including plant and sea-food; shows that more than one food type was consumed at a meal. Examined samples for parasite remains, found possible Diphyllobothrium (tapeworm) eggs in one sample. (31/03/2002).

There was another abstract on there for an inland North American site that said the remains found indicated a seasonal (winter) shortage of certain key nutrients, such as Vitamin C, showing that they were not able to get all their dietary needs met by just animal food.

I also disagree with Cordain on the fat issue, but I'm not sure to what extent. I don't think that the diet was a low-fat as he says it was, because I find it unlikely that hunter-gatherers would throw out fat deposits in favor of muscle meat. But on the other hand, there are other uses for fat besides just eating it. It can be used for candles/fires, as well as to make clothing and water vessels waterproof, and to tan/age leather.

edited to add: I just wanted to mention what I eat, so that you don't think I'm like a low-fat vegetarian preaching at you or something. I usually eat at least a pound of meat a day, and when I track my food I usually get at least 60% of my calories from fat. My ideal is to eat 1lb meat and 2lb plants per day, with over 50% of calories coming from meat portion.

I think berries are probably the best fruit to eat. They're the only fruit that I know of that is totally edible and delicious in its wild state. I love going in the woods and picking wild berries. C'mon man...those little berries want you to eat them...spread their seeds around in your poop ...it's win-win. They're also usually really low glycemic index, which is awesome.

Thanks for the links! I question what time period those remains were from though- I couldn't find whether it was dated at neolithic, upper paleolithic, etc. I doubt they were paleolithic, though, as the one was found in Peru- by the time humans got there, the transition to neolithic (born out of our hunter success) was well under way, and thus they needed more plants to compensate for growing populations.

I'm sure the native Americans were able to get all their dietary needs from meat- all of the modern carnivores (and the traditional Inuit) demonstrate that we can- fresh meat bypasses the need for vitamin C in terms of collagen production, and things like liver, heart, and brains have plenty of vitamin C. It seems fallacious to assume that they specifically stored plant foods to 'get all their nutrients'- I doubt they really cared, as long as they had enough to eat and produce healthy children. Also, at least by the time the Europeans reached the Americas, many native populations were already forming into neolithic societies, centered more on plant foods (started growing corn and beans, etc.)

Yeah, I think he narrowly focuses on the fat content of the leaner wild meat cuts themselves, overlooking the fatty bone marrow, suet, brains, etc. that were regularly consumed.

Haha don't worry, I know you're not a preachy vegetarian! Whoa, only a pound? I can eat 3 pounds of meat in one sitting! I guess it's because that's all I eat, and I'm a growing teenager.

Btw here's the info on the carnivorous woman:

The Ancient Atkins Diet
By Jocelyn Selim
DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 01 | January 2003

Because European settlements from around 10,000 B.C. are primarily found along coasts and rivers, archaeologists assumed their inhabitants survived mostly on fish and plants. The latest look at Mesolithic menus suggests, however, that people back then were a lot more interested in steak than salad niçoise. Archaeologist Glyn Davies of the University of Sheffield in England recently performed a detailed chemical and physical analysis on an 8,000-year-old thighbone unearthed along a river in central England. He focused on patterns of nitrogen and carbon isotopes that can distinguish plant eaters from meat eaters. "We know the bone belonged to a woman who ate an almost exclusively carnivorous diet, only occasionally supplemented with berries or plants," Davies says. Cut marks seen on the bones of wild cattle, aurochs, and deer found nearby corroborate that view. The research raises new questions about Europe's inhabitants after the last ice age. "Everything we know from that period suggests that this woman probably lived in a small family group that traveled seasonally between inland hills and the coast," Davies says. "But no fish and plant remains suggests she stayed put, doing more hunting than gathering."

I agree- if any fruit was consumed regularly, it was berries (in season of course). A handful of sensitive people react to the plant chemicals in them, but most can handle them fine, and their nutrition is somewhat decent. Just limit it to a handful or two a day.

Forefather, your facial growth in just three months of eating carnivorously is unbelievable

I've been eating a diet mostly composed of fat and protein, with 50-60g carbohydrates for six months, and in the past three or four weeks, I've fine-tuned my diet to be more carnivorous. I'd have three raw eggs in the morning with a cup of goat milk and a small hamburger patty (from ground chuck), a large hamburger patty with another cup of goat milk for lunch and the same for dinner. I like my meat pretty pink, and I've grown a craving for semi raw/cooked meat. In my photos from six months ago to now, I can see a remarkable difference, especially in my jawline, my teeth (I used to have sort of crowded upper maxillary teeth, but now I no longer have that), my cheekbones are higher, my forehead is more symmetric with my cheek bones, and I think my nose has become more rounded at the end so that it's more symmetric).

I think your advice to eat as much semi-cooked/raw meat as possible is really smart; cooking destroys many nutrients, and with FDA regulation on requiring 'deradiation' of meat products, even more nutrients are killed off. I'm three chapters into Dr. Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, and I can honestly say now that I'm ashamed of the civilized world today and the need for medicine/dentistry/orthodontics. I'm just about ready to pack up my bags and move to Ayer, Visperterminen, or some other farm village in Switzerland. Call me crazy, but I see no reason for modern medicine, dentistry, orthodontics, psychiatry, or the majority of health institutions today other than to try to cover up the tell-tale signs of bad overall health induced by the nutrient-lacking diet that people in 'civilized' societies have.

I'd include a before and after photo of me, but my digital camera is kaput.

whats so fascinating about all of this, is that the Kikuyus who eat simply sweet potatoes, corn, millet, some beans, & some other agricultural items im forgetting.. Again Im not attempting to be vain or judging, look though...



i have looked at all of the pictures, and in my humble opinion, the girl in the upper right has ThE most beautiful facial structure of all the people in the pictures. her structure is beautiful, and whats so fascinating is that her tribe, her included, do not eat any meat... I cannot help but keep mentioning it, her cheekbones are pure beauty, and like i said this is only my opinion but i think her structure is by far more beautiful than all the other tribes pictures, and the other tribes ate meat?!?! that is whats so strange.. if you guys want my opinion, and this might be a stretch, the key thing here is the Sweet Potatoes. they are super high in Vitamin A and even though its the beta-carotene form, they are still super super high in Vitamin A and i wonder if this was the key to their beautiful development. just a guess, i dunno it seems pretty likely though. again, you guys i know this is so vain to be looking at people's development but it fascinates me and i cannot help but want to learn more, so i apologize if im coming across as a vain freak..its not meant to be like that

FIG. 9. Typical native Alaskan Eskimos. Note the broad faces and broad arches and no dental caries (tooth decay). Upper left, woman has a broken lower tooth. She has had twenty-six children with no tooth decay.

I think the girl in the upper right picture is beautiful. Her nose is very unique, but in an attractive way. And her facial structure is flawless; her face is long and her chin/mandible is very strong and you can tell it's flat. She has a very beautiful facial structure. Her teeth structure are strong and accentuate her symmetric face structure and high cheekbones.

So...Meatzyrus, how's that diet going along for you? Are you getting plenty of sunshine and cod liver oil?

Something interesting is happening to my facial structure. I didn't really pay attention to my teeth the whole six months of eating a high fat/moderate protein/low carbohydrate diet, but I don't think they changed very significantly during that time. It's been in the last three or four weeks that I've changed. Only for the past few weeks have I been taking cod liver oil supplements, and I've increased it up to taking three teaspoons of it a day (breakfast, lunch, dinner) and I get out in the sunshine (but I really only expose my eyes, because I have to wear a coat during the cold winter months..that's another book I recommend to health-conscious people: Health and Light by John Ott). And Only in the past three weeks have I incorporated a HIGH Protein diet (around 60g or more of protein per day from animal sources, mostly meat/liver). Now for the past six/seven months I've been sleeping about 9 hours a night (actually, I've always gotten plenty of sleep my whole life..nevertheless I'm a short person) and only in the past month have I changed.

Not only has my jaw grown, my face has elongated, I can feel with my tongue that the area around my tongue base is deeper; my eyes are slightly more proportional; my upper teeth(I used to have an underbite/small maxilla) have grown out/my maxilla has grown, my upper lip has grown; So now my profile is much much more aligned and proportional. I also noticed that I tend to get headaches at night a lot, especially above my eye (medical term it's called the supra orbital foramen). If you palpate your arch above your eye, orbital area, you'll feel a slight indentation, and I think that's where your facial blood/nutrient supply comes from. I've also noticed that I used to have a more obvious crooked third molar (It's three teeth from being the very last tooth from the back of your mouth counting your wisdom teeth) has begun to straighten out with the rest of my teeth.

All of this seems like a stretch as I haven't had any dentistry or orthodontia done in the last few weeks, and for all of this to occur so rapidly is beyond amazing. I feel as if my facial profile has become extremely better than it used to be, even after braces. Braces could never correct my pronounced lower jaw or my small maxilla. I'll eat whatever organ meat/take multiple cod liver oil supplements a day to keep this up! To think of all the pain people go through to have their teeth manually straightened, and all the money it costs too, when you could just buy a few bottles of premium cod liver oil and refine your diet to affect your physical appearance in such an extreme way has left me speechless. I don't know what to say, I'm inspired.

Oh, and after reading up to chapter 9 in the Weston Price book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, I read that he couldn't find a single native diet that was solely based on vegetables. Though he might find one later on in the book; it's just interesting what an emphasis society places on vegetation in our diets. Okay, I need to get some sleep to grow some more! BYE..

capo you are so lucky for this to be happening to you. so the only thing you have changed is now you eat more meat & the cod liver oil. can you recommened how to tell better cod liver oils from others? Is there a certain name or type of cod liver oil that is most fresh and potent? I noticed a teaspoon of clo provides less than 50% for Vitamin A & D, could one just eat a 8oz serving of Salmon instead? is cod liver oil a natural source of these vitamins, does our body recognize it as a usuable source?

capo, more questions if you aren't bothered. weston price says the cod liver oil only works if you eat it with butter, do you find this is true? are you still drinking goats milk and eating dairy? would eating cod liver oil with milk or just plain fish be ok too?

I don't agree with Weston Price on this point.

The cod liver oil I'm taking is from Norway (I think all cod liver oil comes from there, but make sure yours does). The brand is: TWINLAB NORWEGIAN Cod Liver Oil, unflavored, PCB/Heavy Metal Free, and the only Ingredient is Cod liver oil. It says "for maximum stability, quality and freshness, each bottle is sealed free of air (nitrogen flushed) to prevent oxidation and rancidity. It's contained in a dark brown plastic barely transparent bottle. In one teaspoonful, it provides 40 Calories, 40 Calories from fat (so all the calories are basically the fish oil, duh), 4.5g Total Fat, 1g Saturated fat, 0g Trans fat, 25 mg Cholesterol, 4615 IU Vitamin A (92% DV), 462 IU Vitamin D (116% DV), 554 mg EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), 369 mg DHA (docosahexaenoic acid).

One 12 oz. bottle cost $8.99. I've been taking it three times a day (breakfast, lunch, dinner), and I don't take butter with it. Butter contains a lot of Vitamin A in it, and the presence of Vitamin A in the diet is necessary in addition to Vitamin D for the maintenance and growth of all bone connective tissue. Specifically, Vitamin A activates osteoblasts, vitamin C (ascorbic acid) promotes collagen production, and vitamin D promotes absorption of calcium and phosphate into the blood (McKinley, M., O'Loughlin, V., Human Anatomy, McGraw Hill, New York: 2006, 164).

Well apparently, my anatomy textbook says that vitamin C is also needed to for collagen growth (collagen is the primary organic component in the bone matrix), and there's a lot of that in liver. So I think the key to why I've been growing so much recently is because I've been eating cod liver oil, for the vitamins A and D, and a ton of beef liver. Beef liver is very cheep to buy at the grocery store. You find it in the frozen meat section, and you have to thaw it (it's quicker if you thaw it in warm water) a bit before you fry it up in some sort of grease (coconut oil, olive oil, lard, etc.) on medium heat. If you cook it too long, it gets tough, and I've discovered that it tastes much better if only fried for a few minutes or so I can easily cut through it with a fork/knife.

I haven't been taking any other supplements other than the cod liver oil.

I'll type out the whole paragraph in my McGraw Hill Textbook, 164 so you know the effect on vitamins on bone growth/maintenance:

Effects of Vitamins

A continual dietary source of vitamins is required for normal bone growth. For example, vitamin A activates osteoblasts, while vitamin C is required for normal synthesis of collagen, the primary organic component in the bone matrix. Vitamin D stimulates the absorption and transport of calcium and phosphate ions into the blood. As calcium and phosphate levels rise in the blood, calcitonin is secreted, which encourages the deposition of these minerals into bone.

My book also mentions hormones and exercise; in healthy individuals (as I presume you are now that you're eating well) I don't think hormones should be an issue. Your hormones will be secreted normally without you needing to take any growth hormones or anything like steroids. Exercise, or stress, on the other hand is a good idea if you want to accelerate certain areas of your body/face to grow.

Here's the paragraph on the Effects of Exercise:
Stress, in the form of exercise, is required for normal bone remodeling. In response to mechanical stress, bone has the ability to increase its strength over a period of time by increasing the amounts of mineral salts deposited and collagen fibers synthesized. Stress also increases the production of the hormone calcitonin, which helps inhibit bone resorption and encourage bone deposition.

Mechanical stresses that significantly affect bone result from skeletal muscle contraction and gravitational forces. Typically, the bones of athletes become noticeably thicker as a result of repetitive and stressful exercise. Weight-bearing activities, such as weight lifting or walking, help build and retain bone mass. In contrast, removal of mechanical stress weakens bone through both demineralization and reduction of collagen formation. For example, if a person has a fractured bone in a cast or is bedridden, the strength of the unstressed bone decreases in the immobilized limbs. While in space, astronauts must exercise so that the lack of gravity won't weaken their bones. Research has shown that regular weight-bearing exercise can increase total bone mass in adolescents and young adults prior to its inevitable reduction later in life. In fact, recent studies have shown that even 70- and 80-year-olds who perform moderate weight training can increase their bone mass.

...So, eat beef liver (calf liver is higher in vitamin C and other nutrients I think if you can find it. I couldn't.), take three teaspoons or more of quality cod liver oil (that provides 4615 IU Vitamin A (92% DV), 462 IU Vitamin D (116% DV), 554 mg EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), 369 mg DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) in it, and get plenty of sunshine and sleep at night. Also, I think calcium and phosphate are important nutrients for bone growth, but I drink goat milk as much as I want (sometimes two to three cups daily), and phosphates are in everything that was once living, because they're a basic molecular component in the phospholipid bilayer in all living things' cell membranes. I think sardines contain a lot of calcium too, so I'm going to buy some tins of sardines in olive oil to make sure I'm getting enough calcium. I eat three egg yolks in the morning (raw..) and they have 55mg calcium per egg (located all in the yolk), so that the equivalent of a half a serving of sardines' calcium.

As for mechanical stimulation of my facial bones, the only thing I can do is grind my back teeth and create tension and pressure all over my dental arches/maxilla/mandible. It's too cold to go outside for a brisk walk to stimulate my legs or rest of my body..but I think exercise doesn't really have as big an impact as nutrition anyway on stimulating bone growth. Not only have my facial bones grown, my skull has grown too (because I get aches towards my magnum foramen/upper spine area, as well as around my ear canals..it's interesting, and I'm not always sure what my body is doing or improving on, but I'm grateful nevertheless. I've also noticed that my lower spine and overall spine/back kind of aches when I wake up, which probably means my spine is growing. I have to check to see if I'm any taller..I kind of wish my femur would grow some more, or maybe my leg bones, but if they don't I don't think it would matter too much. My body is proportionate in any case. well, I've just about written a three page essay. I hope you find it useful. good luck as well

Hi, capo.

Are you sure about that CLO brand? That they don't put there any synthetic A and D vitamins (to stabilize A and D levels; first they pull out any vitamins there is, and then put in certain amount of synthetics to replace them)? 'cause many manufacturers do, and they don't have to mention this on the bottle anywhere, or package.

If they don't, that's great, 'cause I can probably get this CLO here, and it's the only good guality CLO that's probably available here.

I am full with you on modern civilization capo- All of our problems, degenerative diseases, inequalities, are the direct consequence of our aberrance from the true niche of humanity in the natural cycle. Modern statist institutions treat the symptom, not the cause, and so the true root of our problems is left alone to continue its accumulation within our bodies and minds.

If you're interested, I keep a blog on myspace and I recently posted about primitivism: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...iendID=93766509

It's kind of long, but I set it to public in case you and any other readers want to browse it. if you scroll down enough you can see my research essay on carnivore, too.

That sucks man, that your digital camera is out- judging by your newer posts, you've changed a ton! You've gotta get that thing working if you can!

Forefather, I'm gonna enjoy reading your myspace blog. It's pretty long.. did I catch that you're planning on moving into the wilderness to never see civilization again? That's bold, but it seems exciting.

JKK, I'm not sure completely about the brand of CLO. I thought since it's from Norway, it has to be authentically from cod liver, but the health stores I've called say they don't carry the brand Weston Price recommends...
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnu...r-oil-menu.html

I'm going to look into getting one of those specific brands of CLO though; artificial vitamin D and A are dangerous in high doses, which natural CLO is not.

I'm planning on getting a 160 Watt reptile UVA/UVB emitting light which I can 'sunbathe' in my house..that way I'll be getting adequate vitamin D during these dark, cold winter months.

I'm going to work myself up to trying cow tongue, heart, stomach..and any other organ meat I can acquire at the grocery store. I read in the WP book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration that the highest source of vitamin C comes from the adrenal glands. Sadly they don't carry adrenal glands in the grocery store. I've thought about catching my own fish during the summers and salvaging their internal organs, especially the adrenal glands, which are located on top of the kidneys. The only way I could bring myself to eat raw internal organs is if I dipped them in lard of some sort..because the taste is utterly repulsing to me, but semi-rare, I can bare the taste of liver if I dip pieces of it in the liquid fat I have concocted from some other source (today it was from homemade beef broth).