I'm not calling TomJackson a liar (or anyone else who posts here for that matter), but I do find his post difficult to believe for several reasons, the first being that his results are very Atypical (remarkable as TomJackson, put it) of someone following this WOE. I've read hundreds of posts on several boards and his is the first that I have read that reported such results. When results are atypical, one must have more information to accurately assess what happened and if the information being presented is indeed accurate. He stated that his triglycerides jumped 25% (in 25 days, assuming that his test results did come back in one day) and that his "bad" cholesterol jumped 20% in the same period of time. While it's not unusual for your LDL to increase (although certainly not by that much), it is VERY unusual for someone's triglycerides to increase when following this WOE correctly (as I mentioned, this is the first instance of that I have read). And while it's not unusual for your cholesterol readings to change dramatically on this WOE, it IS very unusal to see them change dramatically in the UPward direction. Second, reporting a percentage increase without giving the beginning and ending numbers can be very misleading. For example, if my cholesterol was 150 to start with, a 25% increase would still keep me within normal limits, but would sound horrible to anyone reading my post unless I gave the beginning number. Not posting the actual figures (beginning and ending numbers, not just a percentage) gives, at the very least, the impression that the whole picture is not being presented. Also, TomJackson never states that he had his blood checked at the beginning of the diet, only that this was his first "post-Atkins" blood test. We make the assumption that it was checked when he began. Would my doctor comply with my request to have a second test that soon (assuming that I had it checked at the beginning of the diet)? Probably not as most doctors would consider 3 weeks too soon to give an accurate picture of what is happening and would discourage even an anxious patient from having it checked again that soon and I believe that Dr. Atkins recommends waiting a minimum of 6 weeks, not having it checked at 6 weeks exactly (again, because any sooner is too soon to give an accurate picture of what is happening). Common medical protocol is also to average 2 or 3 blood cholesterols before beginning cholesterol-lowering drugs. Even when doctors start you on Lipitor, the typical time frame for a recheck is 3 months (not 3 weeks). Third, we have to make the assumption that TomJackson was following the diet correctly as he makes no mention of what he had been eating during his 3 weeks on the diet. Is it impossible that TomJackson got the results that he did? Nope. Is it statistically unlikely if he was following the diet correctly? Yup. The devil is in the details.

Atypical? Certainly. But even if it's one in a thousand, there's five thousand members on this board.

The question isn't whether it's likely that a given person had his claimed experience. The question is whether it is likely that one person out of five thousand had his experience. The odds are fairly good that such a person, if they existed, would post here.

Something else that makes me a bit suspicious is the "post and run" maneuver. Nothing like posting a "dire warning", then leaving before anyone can question you about how you got the results you did.

What's suspicious about it? Let's assume for the moment that he was on the level. He tried a diet. It failed miserably. He quit the diet. He owed no one any explanation or any parting words at all. He chose to relate his experience for the benefit of anyone that might read it and he left. What obligation did he have to stick around and answer any questions at all?

The attrition rate on this board is attrocious - just as it is in any Internet forum. Of the 4705 members listed in the members pages, a whopping 77% of them have never even made ten posts! 90% have made fewer than 32 posts, 95% fewer than 67 posts and if you reach 300 posts you have reached the top 1%.

So given that the vast majority of members post a few things (many of them about how the diet isn't working or that they feel horrible) and then leave, why is it suspicious that he did?

The largest impression that I am getting is that there are a number of people that are grasping at tenuous straws in order to somehow prove that he MUST be lying since they don't want to believe that his results CAN be possible - yet they marvel and accept fabulous stories of improvements in blood results without question. Rather odd considering how we are always telling people that everyone's body responds differently. Is our confidence in the value of LC to US that fragile?

Besides, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter whether his is lying or not. We have already agreed that his results are, at the most, highly atypical. Did he tell everyone to abandon LC? No. He only urged them to have their blood tested every few months. Has anyone argued that people doing LC should not have their blood work tested periodically? Has anyone argued that people should blindly do LC without determining if it is actually working for them according to several different measures?

Is my confidence in LC tenous? Hardly, which is probably why I tend to react strongly when someone puts a post on this board that suggests this WOE will turn your blood into "fatty sludge" as TJ put it. Does he have any obligation to stick around after posting such a contraversial message? When one puts a post on a board that will likely cause quite a bit of contraversy (as this one obviously has), I would say yes, if for any reason to answer the questions of others who may read the post and wonder what exactly he did to get such disastrous results in such a short period of time. Newbies to low carb would certainly be discouraged from low carbing after reading such a post with statements such as "I'm getting off Atkins immediately" and "Faced with taking Lipitor to undo the damage" (which I suspect was the intention of the post, but that's just my humble opinion) unless they could get more information on the conditions that caused it specifically. It's too bad that TJ left before anyone could question what he did to get the results that he got. I have an analytical mind and am not satisfied with simply being reported end results...I want to see the whole picture. Bottom line is that on the internet, it's impossible to verify whether or not someone is telling you the truth unless they are willing to send you a copy of their lab results (either good results or bad), but when the results are not typical of the vast majority, it tends to raise questions. So....we can agree that the results are highly atypical, but we disagree on the motive and validity of the post. Let's just leave it at that.

Pastorbob, I loved your answer, let's just let it go. Whatever, whether he just wanted to scare us or whether this really did happen to him, the important thing is that we are being successful at lc-ing and have not had our cholestral rise because of our new woeing. As far as the number of people who post, lots of us just read the posts and don't often put our own two cents in. Does that mean they are not out there lo carbing and enjoying the forum and exchange of good ideas? I don't think so. Thanks pastor bob for putting this all in perspective.

Hi Tom,

I know that high cholesterol is very often inherited as is in my case. My mother had a serious heart attack about 5 years ago and her cholesterol was up to 500 when it happened.

High cholesterol was one of the things that I got from her as well. Fortunately not that high.

I have been on various cholesterol lowering meds and the last one I was on was Zocor which I stopped on Jan. 3rd of this year. My biggest problem was muscle aches. I had not had a problem with muscle aches until the past year. The meds did there job but at that price.

Jan 3rd I started Atkins and my goal was to stay off of all prescription meds. I lost 14 pounds during induction phase and I stuck to it very close with the exception of 2 Burbon & waters in my second week. Had blood work on 1/3/02 and my stats were:
Triglycerides 118 HDL 54 LDL 153

Had blood work done on 3/7/02 to check results as follows:
Triglycerides 71 HDL 50 LDL 149

I have pretty well accepted that Atkins is going to be WOL for me if I can stay off the meds. My energy level is way up and I once again run and lift weights.

My wife and sister-in-law saw what it was doing for me so they both tried Atkins and they could not stay on it because of complications.

I am sure that Atkins does work for some and not for others. I guess I am lucky and one of those it is working for.

Good luck,

Terry

Slim2B....

I'm curious what type of complications that your wife and sister-in-law experienced to make them quit Atkins. Was it because they felt bad when they first started or because they developed some type of medical condition? If it was because they felt bad at first, I'd encourage them to try again. Many people feel awful the first 5 days or so, then feel much better. If they continue to feel bad, it's likely not the diet specifically, but a sensitivity to something that they are eating (like dairy or eggs, for example). I'll be the first to say that diets are not "one size fits all", but I also don't think there are many people who can't benefit from eating fewer carbs. Just a thought.

Hi Lisa,

My wife started Atkins induction and stayed on it about 9 days. She was doing great loosing 8 lbs. She started getting head aches after about the 8th day when she started eating more carbs and essentially went of the diet. Her head aches went away. Personally I don't believe it was do to the lack of carbs but maybe caused from withdrawing from a normal diet of a lot of carbs, breads, pasta, potato chips and sweets. Well what ever it was I could not convince her to go back and try it again.

My sister-in-law (wife's sister) started Atkins and was doing great the first week having lost 11 lbs going into the 2nd week of induction. She advised that she just lost all interest in food and didn't want to eat at all.

I can't speak for my sister-in-law as how well she followed induction but my wife followed it because I supervised it very closley. I would like to get them both to try it again but it will probably be to no avail.

As for myself, I plan to stay on it the rest of my life. I can't begin to describe how much more energy I have and no aches or pains. I was also on Tropol for high blood pressure and I quite that at the same time I quit zocor. I check my blood pressure 2 to 3 times a week now and it is staying right at 126/72. I am convinced that the prescription meds I was on cause all of my pain which I am free of now.

Terry

Terry, it's a bit like giving up cigarettes. It has to be a person's own choice. You can't force them. You can encourage and support them with the withdrawals and adaptations that follow - which can be hard but..... at the end of the day the decision and choice is theirs.

For me personally I could not believe I could go a whole 3-4 hours without thinking of food once the carb-cravings stopped! It was grrrrrreat not to have the hunger (!craving more like !) pangs.

I have said this so many times in so many ways on this Forum that I feel like a parrot but I feel I need to say it once again here.

I was in a desperate state when I started Atkins. Having been (or tried to remain) a vegetarian for some 20 years it went completely against the grain.

The benefits for me have been too numerous to even start listing here. Mental Fog: almost instantly better. I haven't taken any asthma medication since August last year. Depression is much much better.

The weight-loss is just a btw which does not seem important compared to the benefits healthwise.

Take care.

With all of the talk on this thread of people lying and doubting and, etc., etc., I was just thinking. Why not just go to your doctor and have your own cholesterol checked if it bothers you so much to see one person's claims of his cholesterol being raised on this WOE? Although, he didn't give it a chance to become a WOE because he never left the "induction" phase. Maybe, if he had just gone on the regular Atkins "diet" or WOE, he wouldn't have experienced such a spike. I am not on Atkins. I am on Neanderthin and it is a WOE and a WOL. My cholesterol didn't jump like that, but I was warned because I have that problem in my family history. My mother can't keep her's down without Lipitor. Although, she won't try this WOL and insists on a low fat/cholesterol/calorie diet variation of Weight Watchers and looks like a 75 year old cadaver. She doesn't believe my claims of how bad grains, dairy, legumes/beans, and nightshades are. So be it! If she wants to look like a cadaver and take her Lipitor, what can I really do about it? We all have our opinions and our "scientific" examples. In the long run, it boils down to what each of us is comfortable with. Because we have this incredible ability to think, each of us has the ability to make up our own minds. You know what? WHATEVER! I've quit being a zealot (except to myself) about my WOE and WOL. If people tell me it's unhealthy, I just blankly look at them the way they used to look at me when I tried to convince them that my way was right. What's "right" for one person isn't right for another person. There are just too many facets to what is "truth" and what is "right." For most of us on this forum, this is the "right" way to eat. But, even amongst US, there are divisions. Most of you think my WOE is bizarre, and I think you shouldn't be using all of those grains, dairy, nightshades, and beans! So what? My "truth" is MY TRUTH. Yours is yours. Hey! In the words of that famous "regular guy," Rodney King, "Why can't we just all get along?"

Hi Terry! Wow...that's got to be the first time I've heard of someone quitting low carb because they WEREN'T hungry! Most of us consider that one of the great benefits of this diet...no more gnawing hunger pangs. My husband, who started following this WOE after New Year because he saw what great benefits it was bringing me, LOVES that part of it. He says it's the first "diet" he's ever been on where he wasn't starving all the time. I agree with Fiona, though...it has to be the person's choice to stay on it or go off it. You're probably right about the headaches also...a common symptom of carb withdrawal. I was also on blood pressure medications and diabetes medications when I started this WOE and am now off both of them with my blood pressure and blood sugars stable within the normal range (BP 125/82 and blood sugars average 100). My total cholesterol and LDL did both go up slightly (along with my HDL) which kinda freaked my doc out even though my triglycerides dropped over 200 points, so I'm having it rechecked again in a couple of weeks (6 months after the last test). This time I'm going in armed with more information, though, and am going to ask that the LDL be checked to see how much of it is type A and how much is type B before I agree to cholesterol lowering drugs. Even then, I'd like to explore a more natural alternative before I agree to a potentially toxic drug like Lipitor.

captxray,

I couldn't agree with you more on doing your own thing. I would like to see my wife on it but I will not even suggest it anymore if she doesn't want to do it.

The bottom line, I know how much better I feel now and I had my mind made up that no matter what my doctor said I was staying on it. Something that can make you feel so much more energetic and eliminate aches & pains can not be all that bad. Especially when you are not taking drugs to make you feel like that.

My son is a fitness trainer in the USAF and when he first heard about me doing Atkins all he could say about it was on the negative side. The USAF teaches the low fat and balanced meal type of diets and how bad fat is. After my son has had a chance to see the results I am having he is begining to wonder about the low fat diets.

Sure is what ever is right or works for the individual is what you should do. I know what I will be doing for the rest of my life. "WOL"

An old thread, I see...... but I would like to post something else, as it seems appropriate......

Look up "Fat sensitivity"
DANDR page 180 1992 UK edition

" I admit there are individuals who are fat sensitive and will develop a less favourable cholesterol level on a high fat diet than on a low fat diet. Intensive study od medical reports strongly suggests that fewer than one person in three falls into this category"

Pages 181 182 then give detailed advice of how to check for this, and what to do about it.

Hope this helps anyone looking in.