I've got little interest in children... and I'm doing low carb. Hmmm... perhaps it is a side-effect!

It is not typical for low carbers to have no interested in children or anything outside of low carb. Most of us do have children. I don't see your point other than to try to illustrate I am drawing unfounded conclusions. If you read the CRON forums you would see very, very few have an interest in children, or religion; in much of *anything* besides eating, food, and longevity - related research. It is almost as if they exist, just to exist. I hardly see how this is "starving to life".

... sorta reminds me of eating disorder online communities. Their world is just this small thing, and they are so isolated from reality, they can't possibly appreciate just how much they are missing out on. It's actually a little sad IMO. My life is hardly perfect but it is a thousand times more fulfilling than when my only concerns were weight (sub for longevity) and food.

I get the sense that the people who are into this CRON thing are already the DINK (Double Income No Kids) types, the urban bi-coastal blue state folks who are not having a ton of kids anyway. So they probably see the disrupted fertility as an acceptable side effect.

First , "average calorie requirements" are really nonsense. Many women of healthy weight wouldg ain eating 2k, many men of healthy weight would lose too much on 2k calories. It is about as scientific as the concept of a cheese group, and the need to eat 6-11 grain products per day. Nonsense.

Second, most dieters are absolutely terrible at counting calories. On the other hand, controlling, orthorexic CR cultists who weigh arugala in grams are quite good at counting calories. Odds are his 1913 calories is actually less than that (the calories in raw vegetables are poorly assimilated). On the other hand, the 1900 calories of the overweight dieter eating a diet based on fat is actually probably more like 2000+.

A guy like that who is naturally thin and 6 ft tall needs to eat a heck of a lot of food; 1900 cals for him is pretty extreme CR.

They are mostly upper class middle aged people, who had their kids long ago...

And no I don't want kids...yet. I want to finish college, go to medical school in the near future and have a good career. I've always knew since I was in my late teens that I didn't want kids anytime soon.

You're either way to intelligent for me to understand or we live on a completely different planet

But I won't make a silly little reply back right this second, I need to try and at least think of something new to say, rather than repeating old stuff...

Wow, there is some STRONG anti-CRON sentiment out there. That's fair, opinions are like eyeballs, everyone has a couple.

Those of you that think this discussion has no place on a low-carb board, well,in my opinion, you are wrong. This board discusses many forms of alternative eating plans that promote health, including moderate/low GI carb diets which CRON clearly is. The low carb aspect of CRON is not it's primary aim, to be sure, but in it's goal of optimal nutrition, it is a diet that by default is a moderate/low carb or GI diet.

As for whether CRON is a *good* plan to follow, well, that's an interesting debate and when debated in the spirit of the war zone, an enjoyable one. If anyone cares about my opinion on it, I'll give mine - though I agree the benefits of CRON are probably there, I'm not yet convinced the certainty and predictability of the benefits is strong enough to outweigh my own need to eat normal amounts of food and to overcome the discomfort of having dietary restrictions that different from the rest of my world.

What I really want to say is that this thread is taking an ugly turn. It's unfortunate that some of this debate is starting to get expressed as hostility towards Whoa. That's not right. Whoa, I know you are pretty thick skinned about all this and are able to deal with it better than most, I'd bet but let me take this opportunity to say in the midst of all this hostility, that I, for one, really appreciate your contributions here. I don't always agree with them, but I do appreciate them. You are giving everyone a window into information that doesn't reach the mainstream dieting world.

It's unfortunate that others can't disagree with your CRON beliefs without slamming you in the process.

Val

Just to be clear:

I like whoa and I *respect* he refuses to compromise his beliefs even when they are unpopular. I don't mean anything against whoa by voicing my (equally strong) opinions against CR.

What I said about the psychological state of CRONers was not a covert personal attack on Whoa, if that is what you are implying. I honestly think it is quite relevant that the majority of CRONers who stick with it do seem to have eating-disorder spectrum, obsessive-compulsive behaviors, and rigid, narrow thoughts. This should imply that CRON either causes such behavior, or that these thought processes bring one to restrict and control food.
Either way, I point it out specifically as evidence that CRON is not a healthy diet and CRON is at odds with psychological and emotional well being. Note, these traits are not necessitated of a calorie adequate healthful diet, but I have yet to observe a CRONer who sticks with it even once excess weight is gone, even when the body starts rebelling, that did not have such traits. Again I don't mean this as a personal attack on Whoa - I myself had those traits when food restricted and underweight. I think CRONers have them for the exact same reasons I used to (a personality type that already tends toward the obsessive, anxious, extreme, and fearful is more likely to be "triggered" by the psycho-physiological effect of starvation response).

If CRON were healthy and the obvious correct choice for a way of eating, why are there so many terrible side effects?

If someone chooses to CRON, I respect that decision.

But I would quite appreciate it if CRONers could understand you cannot compair a CRON diet to a healthy eating diet. It is like comparing a value of thinness (thus an energy restricted diet) to a value of holistic health (well balanced approach, healthful food). To achieve longevity (or thinness) requires certain sacrifices, thus certain value sets, that not everyone has - nor can be EXPECTED to have. One aspect of well being (living longer, with less disease... or, feeling more powerful/confident through being thin) should not be assumed to be superior to all others (fertility, a sense of peace with ones body, strength, energy, greater freedom to choose and act, expanded range of interests and activities, etc). Because it is well observed (both in formal studies and casual observation of CRONers) that it does things to the mind and the body which not everyone wants to accept... things that you just don't get eating low carb, low GI, or any other "healthful" way of eating.

I have to go to work right now, but i'll reply later...

Heres an abstract of a study I just got in the mail which mentions 30% CR on rhesus monkey and female reproduction.


Dietary restriction in aging nonhuman primates.
Dietary restriction (DR) has been shown to benefit health and longevity in a wide variety of species, although most have maximal life spans of only a few years. In 1987, the National Institute on Aging began the first well-controlled long-term study in a species with a considerably longer life span and a closer physiology to humans. Using rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta), an extensive array of physiological measures have been conducted in both males and females to evaluate the effects of DR. Monkeys benefit from DR with a lower body weight, body fat, blood glucose and thus are at lower risk for developing diabetes. Changes in several endocrine measures indicate an altered hormonal axis; however, circadian patterns and timing relative to the onset of DR can obscure the differences. Despite the caloric deficit, female monkeys are not reproductively compromised, and both males and females may benefit immunologically. There remains much to be learned from this model of DR including whether long-term DR will increase life span in a primate species.

PMID: 17063037 [PubMed - in process]

Wow, you're wound awfully tightly on this issue. I was merely trying to insert some levity into the discussion.

But since you insist on taking everything seriously: You're making massive assumptions about CRONers and their reproductive desires or lack thereof. Just like with me, you don't know if I had any interest in having children before the diet or not. You don't know if I am in my child bearing years or not. You don't know if I have already had a half-dozen kids and don't want any more. So to leap to any sort of assumptions about someone elses state of mind and how they got there (by diet induced lack of nurturing desire or whether they weren't interested ahead of time) is just prejudice as far as I can see it.

I think we all "get it" that you think CRON is just an eating disorder. I guess every dieter or person with a food allergy or intolerance is also disordered since they've got to restrict their foods and be rather insistant, even compulsive, about it.

It isn't uncommon for people who have to avoid various foods (like low-carbers for instance) to get accused of being eating disordered, or hypochondriacs by people who know absolutely nothing about their health issues or goals. There is SUCH peer pressure to eat like everyone else is eating, and any deviation... well that must be a disorder. Psychobabble is so annoying.

As far as I can see, if they're healthy and paying close attention to their health, and their eating doesn't involve body dysmorphia, then there is nothing disordered about it.

Totally agree. Very well said.

I still wonder over what it is people find so frightening about other people's diets? I run into this all the time. I could understand the reaction if someone was eating lightbulbs and pieces of jagged metal, but when someone is eating a healthy diet, is experiencing healthy rewards from that diet? Why jump on 'em or try to justify their diet is the result of mental instability? Or visa versa. Is it jealousy that they've got the self-control and discipline we all wish we had?

Woo is just showing us the other side of the coin that Whoa is presenting. There are tradeoffs with anything in life, there is no free lunch. I guess if there is no lunch, that would be free.

On the subject of Quorn, someone asked why you couldn't simply use a low-fat meat instead. Is it because this material is so homogeneous that it lends itself to the most accurate calculation of calories? That would be a sad reason to eschew foods (even in limited portions), due to their inherent variability of fatrotein ratio. That would constitute a certain degree of obsessive behavior. And someone needs to tell the fellow about rounding, chances are that he has no basis for using four significant figures in his calorie calculations even if he's eating Quorn and the like. Certainly arugula might have some variability in the stem end versus leaf tips. I wonder if they pat-dry their arugula after washing? I'd hate to think he was missing out on 2 calories.

As for hearing about CR on a LC forum, I find it interesting. I'm happy to let someone else do the experimentation though. The part about reaching the stage where humans can become immortal, is where I think we need to don the hip waders.

I think what Woo is saying is pretty clear and it is unfair of you to accuse her of being intolerant of various types of special diets (such as to address food intolerances and etc).

CRON is fundamentally different from all those special diets. We restrict certain foods to promote health. The argument that Woo is making is that CRON is usually detrimental to health. You are making a false comparison and thus accusing Woo - who probably knows of the consequences of following an atypical diet - of being unaccepting of others with physiological problems. That is hardly fair.

I think the person people are being hostile to on this thread is certainly not Whoa... =D

CR is not fundamentally different. Any diet, if not followed properly, can be harmful. LC is no exception. CR seems to have more requirements than most diets, more places where you can slip up and do yourself harm. Its a matter of degree, not a fundamental difference.

In my own defense, I have taken great pains to be equally hostile to all combatants.

Also, I don't think it's true that you can associate following a CRON lifestyle with having more "self-control and disciplie we all wish we had." I don't even think there is a need to defend this. Does an anorexic who religiously counts calories and starves on a 200-calorie diet have more "self-control and discipline we all wish we had" than a person who, while controlling their body/fertility/emotions with a healthy diet, also leads a very active lifestyle that requires much work and sacrifice on their part for others? =)

Further... believe me, it is not "jealousy"... lol. That's ludicrous.

Speaking of false comparisons: How about the comparing CRON with anorexia.