If you removed the text above you would have had a nice post....

I didn't say all M&E people are fad dieters, mind you.

But man, I would be lying if I said I had never seen this type of post before:
"WHEW, a week of induction is over, but I am stalled! TIME FOR MEAT AND EGGS!"

I agree. I was with her until the last part. I think Woo was very articulate in espousing a live and let live attitude about things outside the "norm." However, bluntly reminding everyone that the majority of us will not experience long term success because we are not willing to make the necessary changes is kind of a slap in the face and reinforces the same sad resignation that "I'll never make it."

Many men and women who are finally experiencing significant weight loss are also seeing the slighest glimmer, the faintest hope, that they might actually be able to be successful in a ME WOE, whether temporarily or as part of a long term solution.

I do, however, admire Woo in her continued weight maintenance. She was able to find a program that worked for her, both in the short term and the long run. Let's hope the M/E folks (including VLC people like me) will find the same long-term success in their own diet struggles.

God knows that even if M/E doesn't work for absolutely everyone for absolutely forever, at least we're enjoying an encouraging and uplifting (dare I say edifying?) thread that brings a spot of goodness in a world filled with such dreadful circumstances. The reason the thread is at the top of General Carb most of the time is because its members are drawn to a place where they can catch a glimpse of success for themselves, an oasis of hope, as it were.

I hope it continues for a very long time.

If you took my post as a slap in the face and demotivating that is not at all my intention. I think weight loss happens in the mind, just as much as the body. I think most people going down the M&E route are ultimately going to find themselves at another dead end, because M&E creates illusions about why we stall and what we have to do to control weight long term.

With the exception of maybe a type one diabetic or insulin hyposecreters (like a previous poster's daughter)... veggie eating never hurt anyone. The only reason it hurts a type 1 diabetic is because their body does not make normal amounts of insulin... hardly the problem we the obese and overweight have.
(By the way, a type 1 diabetic if not properly medicated with supplemental insulin will also become hyperglycemic from protein, too, not just carbs. So, meat and eggers...if veggies are causing you a blood sugar related problem, it's just as likely protein is too. Ironically, in myself I have noticed that copious amounts of protein WILL imbalance me, even give me hypos...but I have *yet* to observe this with low carb salad veggies. Protein is much higher glycemic load than broccoli.)

Either way, for those of us with weight problems it is not the veggies that are causing the metabolic imbalances that make us starving, over eating, fat building machines. Ironically, your veggies are probably going to reduce the blood sugar and thus hormonal response to eating a meal; I am much more balanced if I include a nice side dish of veggies with a vinegar based dressing than if I eat protein alone.

So I look at it this way. If veggies aren't really causing imbalances, how, then, can the solution to a weight problem include almost total abstinence from them? I don't see how this is a productive course of action for a weight problem.

I mean, the quick weight loss appeal is evident. Few things cause anorexia (intolerance to eating) like eating nothing but meat and eggs. When I eat like that, I have to choke down food... one because it's so unappetizing I can't deal with yet ANOTHER plain egg, and two, because my appetite is very low. So, meat and eggs may work for you because it is like fasting almost - you are removing food from the picture, there is no desire to eat, no responsibility of making a choice (and potentially making a bad one in a myriad of ways.)

But ask yourself:
Am I really stalling because of veggies, or is it the "responsibility" of making food choices that I am trying to evade by eating this way? You can't run from doing the mental work forever...
Is meat and eggs something I can live with for life? Do I see myself, 10 years from now, doing meat and eggs?

If you can answer those questions with the right answers, then continue doing what works for you.
I just think that most meat and eggers are doing it to avoid the responsibility of confronting their food issues, the way they look at food, really *changing* their lifestyle for real. That's where weight loss happens, not with eating this or not eating that to lose weight; it's the long term, the big picture.

It was a little hard for me to get my mind around the all meat diet. I've come to conclude that there is a huge variation in the way people's bodies handle carbs. I am the only person in my immediate family about 250 people that has a weight problem, most of them would be underweight on the charts. None of them diet and eat all kinds of junk my mom's 5 siblings are in their 80s and 90s and have no health problems.

I think the meat eaters are at the other extreme, their insulin is so high and so resistant that that's what they have to do. It takes a lot of discipline to handle a severe problem and I admire them for tackling it. An egg and a cup of lettuce have about the same # of carbs so I don't quite understand why lettuce would mess you up but I'll take your word for it.

I was reading someone's journal that has lost the same amount of weight I've lost this year 25#. I eat lowcarb 30ish carbs and have a carbup day of 300 carbs every week. I usually never get out of ketosis eating that way, I burn off the carbs hiking. They are eating about 1000 cal and just meat and egg everyday. Even though its sort of depressing to me that they have to do that, I think they do have to live that way. And I applaud them, they've found a way to make it work for them.

I hear ya....It's just that saying things like "fad diet", "no productive or valid reason", "tricking yourself", "moth to flame", just took your post from "nice" to "not so nice" IMHO. I'm not picking a fight with you Woo, just making a tiny joke.



Well said!!! Woo definitely accomplished a heck of a thing!!

The M/E thread is great -- people are upbeat, sharing information, encouraging each other. It's everything an online support group should be, and I think the sentiment that started this thread was wholly misguided, so please don't take this as criticism of the M/E thread or plan, which I don't think is dangerous, or unhealthy. The problem, as it always is, is us, what we bring to the plan. In the M/E thread I see at least some people who look at losing weight as an event instead of a process -- the classic dieter's mentality. My own belief is that that's upside down. I think that's kind of the point Woo was trying to make, as well. If a few of those people were able to shift the way they think a tad, they might succeed where otherwise they would have failed.

why would someone make it a hard rule to eat that way?

I have to admit I am intrigued by the possiblities... the carnivore thing promises that you can eat all you want and get down to about 15% body fat. the notion that your body cannot use excess dietary fat and protein, if true, is appealing. and very easy to test, at least on myself. I've been stuck at 195 pounds on a 6 foot frame for about 3 years, wont budge much no matter what I do. Even six day a week aerobic sessions haven't done much (started in late January).

so, I started experimenting with a carnivore diet (mostly) just last week, if it works on me, I'll know very soon. I've already lost a couple of pounds so it does look promising. If the 30 -50 carbs I was eating daily really were the factor that kept me heavier than I wanna be, then who needs them?

True, true and true. But the mods allow them a space for their ideas, just as they've allowed it for others doing unusual things. The current M/E spot seems to work for them, and hopefully resolved that whole 'persecuted minority' vibe from being moved out of the TDC. That's progress, I tell ya.

There is much more in your post that I would respond to, but I'll just point out the above part....

That's great that you don't think that veggies are causing imbalances, but other people think that they do cause problems and find it helpful to eliminate them. Either to break a stall or to eat for 47 years. If it is helpful to them to eat that way then great, unless I see some proof that it is dangerous I see no reason to discourage eating zero carb.

Most of the people around here are pretty well informed and can decide for themselves if they want to do zero carb for life or sporadically. In the end individuals eating zero carb, low carb, med carb, high carb, low fat, whatever can be shown to be healthy, but not everyone can do any of the above and be healthy.....That simply shows the fact that people have to find what works for them and eat that way.

I don't agree that M&E necessarily works by way of monotony. Low-carb may seem easy in concept but it's amazing how difficult it can be to avoid "hidden" carbs, especially for those with a very low carb tolerance, and I can see how making M&E your staple food and adding other foods slowly and carefully - if at all - would make that much easier.

I don't call myself a M&E dieter, but M&E and tropical oils is where I get about 95% or more of my calories. When I'm hungry, meat (mainly red meat and fish) and eggs tastes good and right - not monotonous at all. It doesn't tend to stimulate my appetite when I'm not hungry - this is desireable, IMO - not monotony!

Wyv

ROFLOL I label myself carnivore BUT do eat some eggs. Though not as much as most. Plus I do this for life (day 120 I think so far). For some it is not a stall breaker

Ditto Lynn. How ridiculous that on a low carb site the ultimate low carb plan is bashed so much. Oh well.....

I apologize if my post was confusing. I should have replied to Paul, not you.

He said: "From what I've read in each of the two threads both groups seemed positive, encouraging & supportive."

Well the M/E posts may be that, but some on the other string of posts jump all over anyone who even asks them questions that they feel are threatening.