Potato, wow, I think you're selling yourself short. What you've achieved already is remarkable. And cutting carbs doesn't limit your appetite in and of itself; you and I both know it's not as simple as that. LC certainly beats the tar out of low cal, low fat or starvation when it comes to being "easy" to stick to, but that doesn't mean that it's a breeze. It's all relative.

I can't speak for you, but for me this WOE involved a 100% turnaround. Cutting things that were daily staples out of my diet (almost everything, really) and adding things in that have, by and large, grossed me out all my life. I'd never willingly put a piece of broccoli in my mouth prior to January 2005. There were days when I'd go out to my car at lunch and sit and cry because I felt like I could not go on one single day more. And, unfortunately, I did fall off the wagon for a while, and gained a little weight back, and am currently trudging right back up that induction hill.

Now, I don't view myself as a weight loss hero, by ANY stretch of the imagination. But I do know what I have gone through to get to where I am, and I have a pretty good idea what I'll go through to reach goal. For those who have achieved and sustained weight loss without the aid of surgery, yes, I believe that their willpower is head and shoulders above most.

Incidentally, on the slightly lighter (if that's the word) side of things ... some of the work of GB weight loss is done by the fact that your body experiences massive and really icky indigestion if you "fall off" your eating regimen. If my friend who had it eats too much sugar, she can absolutely clear the room out around a half hour later!

I guess I just have a different view of the whole concept of "willpower" as it relates to value of one's accomplishments.

Maybe it's just because some people still find the "fat and lazy" stereotype true, or go the way of judging the obese by the Sin of Gluttony, that I just bristle when I hear people tsk-tsking about how "you just need willpower" when it's not that easy.

Maybe it's because I'm struggling myself, but I feel like the end may never be in sight, and I can understand how someone comes to the decision to undergo WLS. I couldn't before, even though my own father fought his weight and turned to surgery. Yes, he died from complications.

Seeing how he was far from weak-willed, when he tortured himself on diet after diet, and I don't consider myself lacking in the strength department considering I make it through what I do... so to hear how much better it is to lose weight through whatever are percieved to be "more worthy" ways just sits wrong.

Nothing personal, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If that's your only criteria, I'm going to have to say Atkins and low-carbing is useless too, I've seen a LOT of people regain their weight in hanging around low-carb forums over the past 3 1/2 years.

All I can say is that there are an awful lot of people here that assume what they know is right for them is right for everyone. While low-carb has worked for me (so far, knock on wood) and I think it's a healthy, easy way for me to eat, I don't presume that it's a universal solution for everyone who is overweight. If obesity were that 'easy' to fix, it would be a thing of the past already.

Val

I'm with you, Barb, on disagreeing that the concept that losing weight has to be hard in order to be worthy, and that the use of willpower somehow makes your weight loss more honorable.

Trust me people, gastric bypass is not the easy way out. You still have to lose the weight a pound at a time the same as everyone else. You still have to make the right choices as to what to eat. You still have to stop eating when you are full, though I'll grant that full comes earlier after the surgery. You also have scars, time missed from work, and worries about complications to contend with, not to mention the judgemental attitudes of those who think you are a weak willed glutton who hasn't got the moral character necessary to lose weight without assistance.

I had a gastric bypass operation in 1999. I lost 120 lbs in less than a year. After the initial couple of months, trust me, it was ALL willpower. I got full quickly, but was still hungry all the time, and I mean ALL THE TIME. I'd get full and then be hungry a 1/2 hour later, and be white knuckling it to not eat until my next meal. I craved sugar and flour and junk food all the time. Eventually my willpower gave out and I started eating junk again, and eating too often and regained 80 of those lost pounds over the next 4 years.

I endured a lot of shame from those who delighted in my weight gain after my easy way out. I endured alot of shame from myself as I couldn't understand why I couldn't get thin and stay there even after cutting my body open to do it.

You know what the easy way out for me was? Low carb. I disagree with the poster above that said that low-carb didn't affect the appetite enough to be the sole reason that it works well for some. That's exactly why it worked for me. After starting low-carb, for the first time in my life, I wasn't hungry. And if I was hungry, I would eat, instead of having to have willpower to stop eating. I used willpower for three lousy days on low-carb, long enough to get me into ketosis. After that, this was the easier way. I have lost 130 lbs on low carb and it's been 2 1/2 years since I started. Willpower never lasted longer than a year at the most before in my life. Low carb has lasted much longer.

It seems that this thread has been about judging whether people are doing weight loss right or not according to someone's criteria. Honestly, if you think willpower is that great, then you should value my weight loss after the gastric bypass much higher than you should value the more lasting and greater weight loss I've had low carbing. The weight loss after the gastric bypass was much harder to achieve.

Val

With all respect potatofree, and I've seen others here say this before... there is *no comparison* between the appetite control of a normal LC diet and GBS.

I have a condition. Ever since I can remember I've had it: shaking and irritability when food was delayed, others could not understand it and looked at me like a freak (scratch that, a fat freak who couldn't stand normal hunger). I could not have known as that whining super starving 8 year old that my blood sugar was on the dive.
LC allows me to enjoy the same metabolic state as someone without my condition. LC allows me to control my blood sugar. That's all it does for me. I do not eat a diet so totally low in carbs that it mimics prolonged starvation (highly ketogenic) and I have no appetite. In fact it really doesn't take many carbs at all to get out of that zero-appetite place (and some people never even GET it).

LC does NOT make me "dump" if I cannot resist donuts.
LC does NOT make my body waste calories I consume, because my insides are mutilated to the point that my body no longer effectively absorbs food.
LC simply allows my body's hair trigger insulin and other metabolic hormones to stay nice and balanced, just like everyone else. It's up to ME to do the rest: to watch my portion sizes, to say no to poison food (which for a normal person is merely unhealthy, but for me, it could start a rollercoaster of eating and hunger).

It really really pisses me off when people act like LC is just a weight control "tool" the way GBS is a "tool". It's NOT. It upsets me because it reinforces the notion that if I had more "willpower" I could eat like everyone else and experience the same results, which is blatantly false. This false notion has caused me a lot of anguish (internally and externally sourced). I have a disease and I need to LC to control it. If LC is a "tool" for my carbohydrate sensitivity, then insulin shots are a "tool" for type 1 diabetics, SSRIs are a "tool" for those with severe chemical depression, etc.
There's a BIG difference between utilizing something to control an abnormally functioning system and make it normal, and compromising a functioning system to achieve an unnatural (albeit beneficial) result. It's like comparing reconstructive surgery to plastic surgery. Big, big difference.

One more point.
On the finer points of distinction between a "tool" to refine or improve upon a functioning system, and something that allows an abnormal system to work properly...

Some post op person might be reading what I said and saying WLS gives them what LC gave me (control/normalcy over their out of control abnormal body in a physical/physiological way). I think, for MOST or at least SOME people who get it, WLS IS a "tool" the way low carbing is a tool for our sensitivity. In other words, the WLS allows them to control their own out of control metabolic problems.

I think there is a big percentage of post-oppers who were on the sugar roller coaster and didn't know it. After the surgery, when they eat the high protein, small mini-meals diet, suddenly they find their appetite works normally. They credit the surgery, when in reality, it may have been able to do it had they discovered the right blood-sugar controlling diet. This is unfortunate, but hey, at least they finally got that damaged system fixed (too bad they got unnecessary potentially life-threatening surgery first).

However, there is also a percentage who use the system to control what are primarily psychological and mental losses of control/willpower.

I'm not saying that eating/control problems (eating disorders) are any less real and in need of support/control than a physiologically based one. All I'm saying is the two should not be equated. They shouldn't be equated because the truth is, most of the time, one is an issue totally out of my hands, whereas the other, there is always the hope of recovery. There's a difference between a perceptual problem and an actual one. The former has options, a lot more, the latter cannot be overcome with enough fortitude or perspective changes in the world.

I have no control over my lack of control (over carb sensitivity). I really, really don't, there is NOTHING I can ever do to make my body respond to sugar in a normal way. I wish there was some way for me to be more disciplined or stronger or to exert force/power so I could...but I can't.
On the other hand, there is a lot I can do (and have done) to control my psychological/emotional eating problems. Yes, I have them too, perhaps not as bad as others, but I do have them (pretty hard to get morbidly obese without some kind of reinforcing emo/psych food addiction IMO).
I have done a lot to control my impulsivity with food and tendency to abuse it, all on my own by trying to change my behavioral patterns. This is not a problem that needs to be controlled (with special "tools") the way my metabolism does (by avoiding carbs).

Again, not begrudging those who are very successful controlling their disorders (and yes, they ARE eating disorders) with WLS. Just pointing out it is not the same as controlling a physical problem, because psychological disorders are primarily behavioral/psychological conditions where control does still exist even if only in potential.

Okay, if someone thinks I am being judgemental, well they are just plain wrong. I'm not going to apologise, because basically I am not judgemental about WLS people. far from it.

Willpower, some of the posters have brought up some great points!

If you think I am a willpower nazi then you are just plain wrong! That is one word I have hated all my life! Will-friggin-power!! GRrrrrr!

All of us know, that have had some success on Low Carb, that it was not a lack of willpower keeping us from losing weight!

Willpower is required of course, but every single person has it! Everyone! And I think overweight, fat obese, people are way more in touch will their willpower! Some of the most willful people I have every seen!

I am personally against WLS, I am not against 'persons' who have WLS!

Val, I am sorry to hear this occurred, but glad that you have had some success with moderating carbohydrates!

Just curious, with what you have been through, would you recommend GBS to someone if they asked you ? What would you say to them ?

I am so sorry to hear that, and it certainly demonstrates how the different experiences that people have, result in such different perspectives on the same issue.

Point taken. I didn't state that very well.



I don't know whether this was directed at me, but I did not (that I can recall) state that everyone should LC just because it works for me. I've never believed that. Although I do believe that it *could* work for most people, because I believe that it answers the needs of normal human physiology better than most other plans/methods. The world is full of people who tried the "I'm-doing-Atkins-except" plan, and therefore failed at it.

You're right. I just read val's first-hand account, and it sounds to me like LC is giving her MORE appetite control than gb did.

And I'm sure that someone healing their broken leg has more "limb control" than someone using a crutch.

Sometimes GBS is used to fix carbohydrate sensitivity (and it does work, kinda, for this purpose since you are forced to eat very small portions and cannot tolerate carbohydrate as well). This is wrong. Like Val said, it is only temporary as the stomach expands eventually, you can tolerate food a bit better, and sugar again becomes a problem unless the patient specifically knows to eat very LC they will experience a loss of control over their body again.

GBS is mostly a psych/emo tool - it prevents gross eating. It prevents binging. It makes you purge if you engage in binging or compulsive eating. LC does not do this. If I decide to just rip into my bag of chocolates recklessly, nothing will stop me.

The bottom line is your run of the mill LC does nothing to stop psychological and emotional lapses in control whereas GBS does. Keep in mind I am talking about the average blood sugar controllin gdiets, not the ketogenic kind where almost all food/sweet tastes are forgone (those diets do help with emo/psych control but they are temporary and few ever do them for an appreciable amount of time). I'm not saying eating disorders are any less real or in need of control than something like a tendency to hyperinsulinemia and hypoglycemia from eating carbs & big portions. Over eating/behavioral disorders are, primarily, mind problems with contributing physiological factors. In other words, it is something that there is the possibility of hope for you overcoming it with the right therapy/support/approach/etc. One day it is possible to reach a point where you can eat normally, for health, and not sabotage yourself.
There is nothing I can do to "will myself" out of carbohydrate sensitivity. Eating lots of carbs and sitting there quietly while my body freaks on me is not controlling a problem, it's ignoring one. OTOH, the eating disordered person CAN reach a state where they eat normal foods that make them feel good WITHOUT feeling an overwhelming compulsion to binge/eat more. I know from experience. It's in their minds, and they have control over the shape of their perceptions.

Not begrudging those who get it. Just don't compare it to LC. I need to LC whereas I don't think anyone has "too much intestine" or "too big of a stomach" and needs bariatric surgery. It's a tool to compensate for lapses in control / behavior with food. LC is a tool to fix my body's broken metabolism. My own doctor prescribed a LC diet to me, beause of my metabolic issues. There is no comparison.

Quoted from Wooo:

You know, I'm not so sure of this. I know you said "a possibility of hope." Of course, I've never given up hope, but I have tried since I was 11 years old to 'eat normally.' (so, it's been 40 years now) I have never been able to do it. I'm either gaining or losing, sometimes maintaining, but not for long. The only way I can 'eat normally' is to follow a food plan and stick with it. I don't think people who are naturally thin (who eat normally) follow a plan. Is there something wrong with my mind? Maybe! (I'm sure some people might think so! )

Add to this my hypoglycemia, and from what you believe, even if I could somehow overcome my compulsion to overeat (well, LC certainly helps with that, but never actually removes it from me), I still have to deal with the hypoglycemia. I don't know if I am as sensitive to carbs as you are, Wooo, but they surely do wreak havoc on my system, and I have to be very careful. I also get dizzy, tired, shakey, and almost like drunk from too many carbs. (or if I get too hungry, as well) And it doesn't take that many, especially if I foolishly have them on an empty stomach.

So, maybe I have a double whammy, and that's why it's been so hard to lose the weight and keep it off.

I have heard there are certain cells in the stomach that produce an enzyme that make us feel hungry, and GBS, by effectively removing these cells from our system, 'should' also reduce the appetite. Obviously, enough of them are left to cause some people to still have a hard time.


I don't think that GBS prevents gross eating or binging. It's just the consequences are different than if you did not have GBS. Maybe the blood sugar would be just as effected, but of course, it would take a lot less food to make one purge.

If I recall correctly, the start of this thread was more about why should people treat GBS people like heroes. I agree that it seems like a shortcut or an easier way to lose, but apparently, no way is ever easy.

So, at this point, if anyone can lose weight, no matter how they do it, they at least deserve some recognition. Should dieters be given more "credit' than GBS people, maybe, but either way, it's a tough road to travel.

I've said before, in other treads on the subject, if not this one that I understand a person has to work WITH the surgery or whatever people choose to do. That's where counselling and screening come in to making sure a person is making an informed decision. I've never asserted that the surgery is a cure for everyone, or even a permanent cure for obesity.

I'm very much aware of what the surgery can and cannot do, even if I don't feel compelled to launch into pages of monologue to prove it. Maybe that's why you feel the need to go into such minute detail and teach me all about it. I can assure you, I know what it is.

My point throughout this thread is solely that I don't feel people have the right to judge those who choose WLS as somehow less worthy of their loss than those who manage by less invasive means.

For the record, even if I believe that GB is for purely psychological/emotional reasons, it wouldn't mean GB is not a valid treatment. There are many disorders not caused by an easily-seen malformation of an organ that still have successful surgical treatments when all else fails. If a person, for WHATEVER reason, is unable to follow a weight-loss program and the physical reinforcement of the surgery is the only way to let them make their body comply, I don't see where it's useless.

As you've so eloquently pointed out several times, weight loss by itself doesn't even "cure" food issues, so I really don't think any plan or procedure can stand alone without some sort professional help to deal with the root causes.

Or at least a support group of some kind, even if it's one's friends, family or forum.