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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Aug-21-04, 20:57
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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I meant this one...

http://www.lowth.com/item/052594841..._help_right_now

In the promos they compared eating broccoli unfavorably to eating an ice cream bar. That really bugged me since they DIDN'T allow broccoli at CM at first, then reversed and ALLOWED it, now the ad for the book I saw in a magazine said eating broccoli was as bad as ice cream... I'm losing my faith pretty quickly.
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-04, 08:27
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
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Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
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I've said this before. For CAs reactive to broccoli, eating broccoli IS just as bad as eating an ice cream bar.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-04, 15:15
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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I think that's kind of ridiculous, really.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-04, 16:33
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Dianee Dianee is offline
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Plan: CAD/CALP
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I know it does get confusing with the Broccoli issue. I know the very first CAD book, broccoli is listed as a veggie that you are not suppose to eat along with Brussel Sprouts. In the CALP book, Broccoli is on the food you can eat only it has a little * saying it can cause cravings. The Brussel Sprouts are totally legal and don't even have a * next to them. I guess over the years the Heller's learned different things. I know for me, I can't eat Broccoli. I do have horrible cravings afterward, but I can eat the Brussel Sprouts.

There has been a lot of talk about that particular phrase with the Broccoli and the ice cream. I have the book, so I am going to write out what the pharagraph says. Thiis is from the Heller's newest book called "The 7-Day Low Carb Rescue and Recover Plan.

"Even the most experinced dieter can be fooled by hidden carbs. How many people for instance, would ever guess that two stalks of broccoli contain as many carboyhydrates as a chocolate ice cream bar? We are not saying that you should go out and eat ice cream instead of your vegetables, and certainly broccoli contains fiber (among other good things) that's important to your health. On the other hand, if your extremely sensitive to carbohydrates, even something as good for you as broccoli, can signal your body to release insulin and make it harder to keep losing weight. This comparison is offered only as one of many examples we can make to illustrate the point that the carb counts of different foods may surprise you."

It does kind of make you wonder because they do keep changing their minds, but like I said earlier, they keep learning from others as they go along. What works for one, might not work for another.
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-04, 16:38
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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I'm just rapidly losing respect for them, as I did with Atkins when that program has flip-flopped and changed it's course over the last two years or so. It seems to be a book sales competition more than science anymore.
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 09:27
adukart adukart is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Default Brocolli Stalks

Well I just wanted to point this out, I believe the Heller's said 2 stalks of brocolli, so the broccoli would have 25.8 and the ice cream bar would have 29. And if one is sensitive to brocolli it would seem to be just as bad, right?

I got these numbers from this discussion: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=180934

EDIT: I don't mean nutritionally bad, I mean insulin spike, craving causing bad.

Last edited by adukart : Mon, Aug-23-04 at 09:32.
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  #22   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 11:27
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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Except the broccoli is less calorically dense having a lower glycemic load, with fiber to further slow the absorption, resulting in even LESS of a spike. All carbs aren't created equal, and I personally feel the comparison is more for shock value and book sales than sound science.

It's not just the Hellers in particular, I don't have it in for them or anything. They do good work, on the whole. There are so many versions of Atkins floating around now it's hard to tell what THAT plan is anymore either. I wouldn't be too suprised to see new versions of South Beach popping up too.
If you sell a person ONE book, you make a few bucks, if you sell them THREE books, even more.... Even Dr Phil (my Idol) is guilty of it.

It doesn't make their point less valid, but to ME, it makes them seem less credible.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 12:07
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
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Except a lot of CAs react to fiber, therefore it doesn't matter about how less calorically dense broccoli is than a chocolate ice cream bar. AS has NO calories and many CAs react to that too. It's not about the calories. It's about the carbs and a CAs unique insulin reaction. It can even be about a perceived sweet taste or smell. We do NOT have the same reaction to carbs and fiber as others. And you know that net carb theory doesn't apply in CAD.

I also think that the Hellers' books tie nicely to specific situations. CAD for the younger crowd; CALP for the over 40s and those with sensitivities; Carb Addicted Kids for their parents addressing the special situations of kids, Heart Healthy is obvious and now, 7 Day Low Carb rescue for those who know they need low carb but just can't seem to get started. They all seem pretty relevant to me.

Everyone is entitled to his/her own perceptions though.
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 18:52
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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How can a person react to fiber? It's not digestible, so I don't understand how it can affect a person's body chemistry at all. Could you link me to any studies there are so I can understand it better?
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 20:17
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
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Plan: Mishmash
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  #26   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-04, 20:55
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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I'm aware of the basic processes of digestion, and also that the anticipation of eating can elicit a response from the body. Maybe I'm just slow, but it still didn't say FIBER is responsible for any increased response. <shrug> I suppose it's one of those "tomAto, toMAHto" things. If you think you're reacting to it, you are. I certainly can't refute someone's perception.
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Sep-08-04, 13:50
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
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Plan: Mishmash
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fiber=starch/sugar=carbohydrate=insulin response

The first wave of insulin release occurs upon the ingestion of carbohydrate. At that point, the body doesn't know that the food is indigestible just as it doesn't know that the AS isn't real, so it does its thing and releases insulin. When a CA releases insulin, he/she releases too much insulin thus hunger results as insulin is the hunger hormone. The second wave of insulin is release upon digestion of food and a rise in blood glucose. This second wave is the one that is reduced because fibers impact on blood glucose is reduced.

http://www.dietandbody.com/article1082.html

The insulin level rises already in the first minute after the start of a carbohydrate-rich meal, whereas the glucose level begins to increase only in the third minute. This early rise in insulin level is observed also when either carbohydrate-free food or even "food" without any caloric value is offered.
In 1974, Drs Fischer, Hommel, Fiedler, and Bibergeil published an article titled "Reflex mechanism on insulin secretion," that now is considered classical work on insulin regulation. It's been followed by research data showing the details of insulin secretion time course.
The insulin level rises already in the first minute after the start of a carbohydrate-rich meal, whereas the glucose level begins to increase only in the third minute. This early rise in insulin level is observed also when either carbohydrate-free food or even "food" without any caloric value is offered. The phenomenon is now well-researched under the name "cephalic phase of insulin release" though it is amazing how little it influenced the art and science of dietetics.
FOOD INTAKE is considered as the primary cause of insulin secretion. In this view, carbohydrate-containing foods are absorbed into the circulation and stimulate the pancreatic beta-cells to secrete insulin. However, careful analysis of the time course of insulin secretion during carbohydrate ingestion has shown that insulin secretion can start even before glucose is actually absorbed. This so-called early insulin response is elicited by stimulation not only of taste buds but also through sight and smell of the food or even by meal anticipation.

Artificial Sweeteners Are Not the Answer
Sweet taste - even from artificial sweeteners - causes an increase in calories coming from fat and protein. No surprise considering what we've learned today.
Sweet taste, even coming with artificial sweetener, raises glucose concentration in the blood before the food has a chance to be digested. Why? Because your body knows that eventually, it will have all the carbs you've swallowed and it doesn't wait until it that happens. When the sweet food is real, the carbohydrates eventually get into the blood.
And if they're not?
Well, nature never counted on us inventing artificial sweeteners. Being fooled, your body reacts rather vindictively: it forces you to want more sweet food plus eat more next time, no matter what food you agree to have.
So, you'd be better off without artificial sweeteners. There are other tasty foods you can have on a low-carb diet.
Some Clinical Data on Fats:
• Preference for high-fat foods appears to be a universal human trait.
• How much fat we eat appears to be determined simply by the amount of fat available.
• Fats are especially provocative in the obese, who tend to overeat fatty foods more than the lean.
Clinical Data on Other Tasty Foods:
• Good tasting foods increased so-called diet-induced thermogenesis (heat production after meals) and reduced food efficiency (how many calories are used and how many pass through the intestines).
• Good tasting foods increase energy expenditure. It seems like a paradox, but when you eat what you really enjoy, you body gets less of this particular food's calories. Sources Endocrinol Exp 1974 Jun;8(2):137-46
Am J Physiol 1975 Oct;229(4):1019-22
Physiol Behav 1990 Jun;47(6):1295-7
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 278(4):E603-E610

http://www.pharmabiz.com/article/de...73&sectionid=46

http://www.survivediabetes.com/sugar.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/TheSeer/bloodsugar.html

http://www.mercola.com/fcgi/pf/arti...your_grains.htm

http://nutrition.about.com/od/fatsc.../whatiscarb.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...st_uids=8288041
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Sep-08-04, 15:17
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Okay, so the body initially reacts to FOOD, no matter what kind, and the raise in glucose levels start after that. Gotcha. Fiber doesn't increase glucose levels, in fact SLOWS the absorption of the digestible carbs in the food eaten. This doesn't prove fiber raises glucose levels in and of itself or has any effect on insulin production other than REDUCING it. Which, to me, means fiber doesn't cause a blood sugar drop or increased cravings... the digestible sugars and/or starches do.
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Sep-08-04, 15:28
Enomarb Enomarb is offline
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Zuleika-
Thank you for all the links. You are amazing how you always have a link to help someone. I guess people are different and respond to foods differently, and that we need to be experts on ourselves. I have a lot of respect for all the people trying to help others with the issue of health and weight, but I need to find what is best for me. The CAD/CALP/CAHHP has been like a miracle for me. I don't have any answers about the issues in this thread, but wanted to let you know it's interesting and informational.
E
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Sep-08-04, 17:36
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
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Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
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I never said glucose. I always said insulin. When I speak about carbohydrate addicts I always talk about insulin. And that's why fiber causes an increase in insulin and therefore appetite. Because as far as a CAs insulin knows, you've put food in you're mouth. It doesn't care that it's fiber and won't be digested further down the road or AS which has no calories. To the CA's body, it's food and cases an insulin affect. And the fact that it's carbs, fiber is carbohydrate, causes even more of an insulin affect. And then you have the wonderball of insulin affect. With ever increasing hunger and cravings resulting.

This isn't my own personal theory, though I've personally experienced it. It's here and it's in the Heller's books. That you choose not to give it credence is your choice. You've asked for the research and I gave it to you.

Note: It took me a while because you have to put in specific terms for it to come up.
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