That's okay, Neener. I realize there are all kinds, and I just don't like pointing a finger at any individuals on the board. I remember trying to gently suggest to one girl she might want to seek help, since she was at a VERY low weight already, complaining of being "fat and disgusting" and got a PM referring to me as a "jealous bitch".

I figured, in the case of Alina's post, she may have missed that the article itself wasn't only about carbs.

Of course I've missed it, who didn't?



Too nice? Really? Is that what a support forum is for - pointing out people with disorders?
What good could someone armed with enthusiasm and pseudo-scientific attempt to a theory do by diagnosing people with 'orthorexia'?
People you know nothing about and can judge them from a few posts here...

Alina

Actually, Alina, it seems quite a few people didn't jump to the conclusion it wasn't just about carbs. I'm sorry if how I titled the thread was confusing to you. I guess I just assumed people would see the article is about people who carry healthy eating to the extreme, and that the title of the thread pertained to carbs because that's what we're all "here" for.

ANYhooo....

Since you summed it up so well, I thought I'd quote the whole post.

I don't believe anyone was trying to "diagnose" anybody. I think it's good to have an awareness that it's possible to carry even GOOD habits to the extreme, and that there seems to be a small segment of our population who may be heading in unhealthy directions. Does that mean we are out to crucify them? No. Name names? No. Do we have the right to discuss a potential problem and recognize it's existance, even among our ranks? Yes.

That's also support, IMHO. Feeling free to ask questions...

support does take unusual forms...

We really are not in any position to "diagnose" people here; with eating disorders or anything else for that matter. We can share our experiences and observations in different areas but that's really about as far as a forum such as this can realistically take it.
OTOH, I think it bears pointing out that many of us need to be careful that we are not projecting our issues onto someone else in the name of "support". For example, if you personally tend to obsess about counting carbs and/or calories, that doesn't mean that the rest of the world does or that the person who is posting regarding disappointment in themselves for "falling off the wagon" has ----- (fill in the blank with the ED du jour).
Any time a peson takes on doing something totally new and foreign to them (such as low carbing), it can appear to be a bit of an obsession while that person is learning and trying to become comfortable with that new way of living. Some people take longer to learn and get comfortable with new things than others. That is not a disorder; it's a normal part of the learning process and you will find varying degrees of commitment and enthusiasm among that group as well.

LisaN and Red..you both make good points. Just because somebody is upset that they had a lapse, doesn't mean they have a disorder. Neither does planning ahead OR the "new thing" enthusiasm most of us went through. That kind of dogged determination is sometimes necessary to get the hang of a whole new way of eating until it comes naturally. What worries me is a few who don't seem to get past that point.

I can't judge your whole personality from a few posts, but neither can those who presume to judge MY motives and general attitude from a few posts, either.

Forums such as this do tend to attract all types, and sometimes, much as in "real" life develop their own skewed slant on "normal". If all your friends obsess about clothes, right down to what wearing a given pair of shoes "means" (using a clique of my co-workers as an example here) that behavior is seen as "normal" to that group.

In a forum devoted to low-carb, counting carb grams to the 1/2 gram seems normal... split into a "forum clique", subsisting on fat is seen as "normal"...and so on....

To some, my advice to someone upset about cheating may sound flippant.."tomorrow's another day..drink a lot of water and get right back to it." or "This too, shall pass..." I don't see it as telling them it's okay to gorge on carbs, but rather it's okay to make a mistake, learn from it, and move on.

Hi everyone,

I'm back from vacation and want to make a clarification what I am, and am not trying to discourage and encourage. My sarcasm was not meant to discourage people with problems to seek medical help, my sacasm was directed at the author of the survey for creating a set of questions which would "catch" nearly every successful dieter pre-maintenance.

I would ALWAYS encourage someone with destructive obsessive behavior to seek help (this does NOT in my mind include people who count stairs, always check their closet b4 bedtime, always open shades, etc). People who are driving LC to unhealthy weights or totally withdrawing from society to maintain (other than on a temporary...can't go to parties basis) do need to examine their situations and perhaps seek further consultation.

However, soooooo many people (and you've seen it on this forum folks) get very upset when the scale doesn't move, the body fat or BMI calculators tell them they're in the wrong place, etc.....what those people, who are struggling to change their WOL do NOT need is for someone to create a basic set of questions which would categorize MOST people watching their diets closely as potentially having a disorder.

I object to the generalness of the questions,
I object to common (and smart) tasks being labeled obsessive,
I object to common feelings prior to maintenance mode being labeled as possibly obsessive
I object to labeling people who are not obsessive as having a disorder
I object to the large catergory of "non-obsessive" people who would end up worrying that there is something wrong with them because they're planning a menu

I expect more from the medical community.....

Now it would be interesting to know what you mean by that? Am I not giving support on this forum? Because if you're trying to say I'm not supporting labelling people and pseudo-scientific theories it is very clear that you're right - I don't.



Oh good. That means we can rule everyone except us maintainers out.

Alina

Daddio- thanks for clarifying your position. You make very good points.

I personally don't think they're trying to "create" a problem, or label those who make prudent, healthy attempts to have a healthy life,just to recognize the extreme behavior. I can see, though, that the questions were poorly worded.

It's nice when a person can disagree without attacking.

I think Lisa caught the crux of the issue a few posts back when she said the problem is when the obsession with healthy eating - whether low carb or otherwise - interferes with quality of life. I for one know that my quality of life has gone way way up by eating this way, even if I too have had to give up some of the 'pleasures of life' such as pasta. And as Daddio suggested, it makes perfect sense to plan your meals a few days ahead! I'm only cooking for one, so I'll go shopping and make a few veg dishes I know I'll be able to have as side dishes over the next few days. That's not obsession, that's just sensible use of time. Just this afternoon I sauteed about 8 chicken breasts and then put them in the fridge - now I have chicken to add to salad or serve with hot veg for the next few days. I agree that the questionnaire wasn't worded well; I would probably have orthorexia by its definitions, but I know I don't.

I can understand that it is a real syndrome though. I can even imagine suffering from it if I'd found LC slightly differently. I know, for example, that I successfully dieted low-fat twice in my life. By successfully I mean long-term, a year or more, with significant weight loss. But each time I did it I was fighting my body all the way, and I felt like a clock being wound up tighter and tighter until one day I just snapped and rebounded - and put all the weight back on plus more. I started low carbing with CAD, which is a much 'gentler' form of low-carbing than Atkins. When I switched to Atkins I did so knowing that if I eat higher level carbs but keep them within an hour, I'll be fine. Basically, I know how to 'control' treat days, or splurge days, or special occasions - and I do so fully aware that they will not make me lose control long-term. I think if I'd gone to Atkins straight away I might very well have been terrified that any taste of sugar etc would catapult me back to the situation I was in before; that I'd 'break' and put all the weight back on. So I can imagine being obssessive about not ever having bread, sugar, etc. I'm very glad I started out with CAD because it's given me a greater understanding of how carbs work with my body; how I can bend the rules when I need to without breaking.

The amazing thing about low carb, for me, is that I think it puts eating back where it should be; part of life, even an enjoyable part of life, but not a focus. This so *isn't* a diet. When I was counting calories I was trying to come up with creative delicious ways to eat the calories I was allowed, and I'm a good cook; I made good food - but I was constantly chugging diet coke and eating chewing gum to try and help me ignore the cravings and hunger. Now I know what I can eat, and I do. No obsession, no guilt, I just eat and then move on. If someone had told me I wouldn't miss pasta I would never have believed them. Food used to call me; carbs held a siren call - the siren has been silenced. BUT on the rare occasion they are unavoidable or I feel like a small change in routine - they won't kill me.

It is incredible how much of my relationship with food was insulin-based, and NOT emotional/psychological etc, as I may have once thought. In two and a half years of eating low carb I can think of maybe one instance when I knew I wanted to eat 'emotionally' - and even so resisted easily because there was no insulin pushing me. Hmm, but that's really a different topic so I'll stop there.

Deborah

DebMeg-- excellent point. When I first started Atkins, the dire warning in the book that just one taste is the kiss of death to the plan DID make me paranoid. When I switched to CAD, it was nearly impossible to believe I could eat freely within that hour. I really was starting to feel anxiety about eating certain foods. That scared me enough to start thinking about how much "in control" of my eating I really needed to be, and how much restriction was healthy for me. (which is what lead me to even read about ED... I saw an article that said ANY diet that forbids whole categories of food could lead to ED, which hit a nerve, but I set out to prove it wrong!)

Maybe some people need absolutes in order to succeed on LC, I'm not disputing that. There are people who cannot tolerate a lot of carbs, and for whom one slip will lead to a binge if they can't get a handle on it. There's just a line between self-awareness and real fear and that's the line I'm concerned with.

Well said, DaddioM. There are enough people with real disorders (most of whom would not recognize it from taking a "test" such as this one...there's usually this little thing called denial going on) without creating a new set of people who are needlessly worried that they may have a disorder when in fact they are engaging in completely normal behavior. The ones who read it and worry about it are probably the ones who are least likely to have it. I've let the practice slip in the past few months, but I used to plan meals (at least dinners) 2 weeks in advance and post them on a cabinet door in the kitchen. I based my menus on whatever was on sale the week I went shopping. Orthorexia? Nah...I wanted DH (who was often home in the afternoons well before I was) to have an idea of what was available in the pantry and freezer for dinner so he could start dinner for me if he was so inclined without having to call me at work and ask what I had in mind (yes, he really is a keeper! ).
I also agree that those questions are broad enough and general enough that a good percentage of those who are trying to lose weight by being mindful of what they eat would test "positive" for orthorexia (ie answer "yes" to at least 4 of the questions).
Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to not look for more problems...I have enough real ones already.

Well, Potatofree ... great minds think alike!

I was surfing the NOW's Love Your Body site and found information on Orthorexia Nervosa. It struck me that this described the extreme results of the direction I've been heading since I've begun purposefully trying to lose weight.

For the last year I've focused more on food than I've done in the last 20. A necessary focus, to be sure, but uncomfortable when I look at how much time I'm spending planning meals, counting carbs and calories, measuring water intake and portion sizes, etc.

I don't need a label - I'm nowhere near the extreme - but in the back of my mind I've noticed the change towards more obsessive behavior and it's made me uneasy.

My goal is to keep balanced. I don't want to hold onto my dietary habits too loosely or with white knuckles. That might take some time since dieting is still relatively new to me again.

I'm sorry this thread has brought up bad feelings and derision from some posters here. I think the information that you posted is really valuable for many people - maybe not for the folks who think it's silly, or those who are already deeply affected - but it's another danger zone, like binging or purging. Something to be aware of, something to avoid.

Thanks for bringing the issue to the forum!