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  #31   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 15:30
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,651
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Thanks so much Robert. Vindication!!!
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  #32   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 15:33
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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okay, that guy John Prins says he has evidence that fat cells die in the body, but he doesn't say what any of the evidence is in this article from 1999 where he only describes the expts he's done on fat cells cultured out of liposuction patients. I'm doing a pubmed search on the guy to find out what his published research says on the subject, I'll let you know.
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  #33   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 15:54
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
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Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...st_uids=9392477

OKAY! here's some actual evidence that I believe, I think. the link is above, but here's the gist of it for those of you who want it short and simple:

John Prins and colleagues get pre-fat cells (not actually fat cells, but can become them under the right conditions and are the source of making more of them) and fat cells from OBESE liposuction patients for all their experiments. In this study in 1997, they found that these fat tissues contained high amounts of a protein called Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha (TNFa) in the fat of these OBESE patients. This protein does a lot of stuff with the general idea of preventing the accumulation of even more fat, so picture that by the time you get to OBESE, your body is actually trying to help keep you from getting more fat, sort of. Anyway, they wondered if this TNFa protein could also lead to fat cells getting killed off as a way of preventing increases in fat storage, and found that it does (tested in the cultured cells only, not in actual people).

So the conclusion is that there is a protein that is present at higher levels in OBESE people, which is capable of causing fat cell death, and therefore killing fat cells MIGHT be one of the jobs of this protein, TNFa.

One caveat is that the protein TNFa is present at high levels in OBESE people's fat, not necesssarily in the fat of people who have lost weight. One other thing that TNFa does is to signal production of high levels of leptin, which reduces growth of fat cells. One thing we do know (I can provide the links for these articles too, but I'll have to look for them so ask if you want them) is that LEPTIN levels DECREASE DRASTICALLY as we LOSE WEIGHT (which is thought to be why continued weight loss after the first few weeks is harder, and how people think refeeds might work). This would indicate that the levels of TNFa probably (assumption, not fact here) decrease as well as we lose weight, making it LESS LIKELY that fat cell death occurs after weight loss, at least in the shorter term. Maybe after years of maintenance TNFa and leptin levels are able to re-increase (that's a BIG STRETCH by me, though).

the good news is that fat cells are probably dying inside your stomach if you're obese. :P Cheers!
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  #34   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 15:58
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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I'm more interested in his statement that stress hormones cause bellyfat to be burned preferentially... I thought it to be the opposite. More digging to do I guess....

Zuleikaa-- what do you mean "vindication"? I wasn't aware there was a battle... just a discussion.
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  #35   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 16:11
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potatofree
I'm more interested in his statement that stress hormones cause bellyfat to be burned preferentially... I thought it to be the opposite. More digging to do I guess....


Potatofree, I think that this is one of those issues where some hormones are pro-burn and some are pro-fat accum. As for John Pruns, I'm not sure what I think about his ideas on diet affecting fat storage either, so I'm guessing that in an interview situation, he made A LOT OF OPINION comments that were not based on his research or anyone else's, but were just conversational (re: the comment i posted that he said dietary fat makes for stored fat better than sugar, as well as that eating fat makes people more hungry than sugar). I'm taking his opinions with a BIG grain of salt and that's why I went directly to his published research where you aren't allowed to make those kinds of reaching assumptions without data to back them up.
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 16:13
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
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Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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Okay, thanks.
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 16:24
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Hey, i looked around a little, and I think I figured out where he got his idea that it burned fat.

http://stress.about.com/cs/cortisol/a/cortweight.htm

This article, and some others I looked at that were less good, talk about how cortisol actually stimulates fat burning, but it also stimulates hunger and storage of fat directed at the abdominal region, so it starts out helping you, but then it makes you eat more and store it in the bad area (healthwise), which is why we think of it as bad, I think, even though it does actually stimulate some fat burning.
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  #38   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 16:27
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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Kind of like insulin, when it functions as it should, is good..but when thigs get out of balance, trouble?
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  #39   ^
Old Tue, Sep-07-04, 14:58
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,651
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Here's another article stating that fat cells do die.

Also since other cells die and are absorbed by the body I'm going to assume that when fat cells die, they are absorbed into the body also.

German reasearch on this stuff is so far ahead of the US.

http://verlag.hanshuber.com/Zeitsch.../00/tu0008.html
http://verlag.hanshuber.com/Zeitsch...008.html#tu0008
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  #40   ^
Old Tue, Nov-23-04, 12:24
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,651
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Update post.
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, Dec-26-04, 19:12
lusana515 lusana515 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 142
 
Plan: cad
Stats: 256/256/200 Female 5' 3"
BF:51%/51%/?
Progress: 0%
Location: England
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Wow what an interesting post
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  #42   ^
Old Mon, Jan-03-05, 19:06
fatnewmom fatnewmom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 746
 
Plan: My own low-carb rules
Stats: 190/180/140 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 20%
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjoyb
I'm sorry, Zuleikaa, but if you can take the time to repeatedly bump this theory of yours up so people keep seeing it, you can take the time to give us some evidence that your ideas are backed up by some science. I can't find anything on the web to indicate that the stuff you say has any truth behind it at all.

It's a nice idea, but if it isn't backed up by science, please stop bumping it up for more people to read and think of as fact. There are a number of non-scientific people on this board who will be fooled by your "don't ask me for proof because you won't understand the proof"-attitude, and I think it is a disservice to them to pretend that that's okay. GIVE US EVIDENCE!



Though I would love for his theory to be true, it's not what I learned in my physiology and biochemistry classes. I would like citations, too.
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  #43   ^
Old Tue, Jan-04-05, 04:14
RCFletcher's Avatar
RCFletcher RCFletcher is offline
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Posts: 5,977
 
Plan: Food Combining
Stats: 220/175/154 Male 5feet5inches
BF:?/27.5%/19.6%
Progress: 68%
Location: Newcastle UK
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Quote:
Increases in adipocyte number occur via repliction of preadipocytes, a process that is not restricted to infancy but occurs throughout life. In contrast to still widely-held beliefs, mature fat cells can be eliminated by dedifferentiation or apoptosis.

This is from the link:
http://verlag.hanshuber.com/Zeitsch....html#tu0008_04
Article:
H. Kather
Fettgewebe und Fettsucht
Adipose tissue and obesity

Now, I'm not sure what eliminated by dedifferentiation or apoptosis. means exactly but it certainly sounds like die and go away?

Also from the previous link I posted:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30...ries/s20847.htm

John Prins: Well what we have done in our laboratory here in Brisbane and also in Cambridge in the UK, was we've demonstrated that human fat cells have the ability to die in simple terms. So individual cells can die at any stage of life, and probably do so all the time, and the fat cells in our body are in a state of turnover, much as our muscle cells are and our liver cells are, and so at any stage of life, we have the ability to either create new fat cells if we're in a state of having more energy into the body than is leaving the body, so if we eat more than we require; but equally we have the potential to lose fat cells in the reverse situation.

Here is a quote from a very good article on the subject of fat cells
http://tm.wc.ask.com/r?t=c&s=a&id=3...l%20Numbers.htm
Studies conducted in Sweden in the1970s were the first to show that fat cell numbers could be reduced.2 The re~searchers followed obese patients over a seven-to-nine-year period and discovered that some lost weight while others gained bodyfat. They noted that the decreases in bodyfat among the obese patients who lost weight over the long term couldn't be ex~plained by a reduction in the size of the existing fat cells. Those patients had actually lost adipose cells, a reduction that closely correlated to the change in bodyfat. In other words, they lost weight not because each fat cell got smaller, but because they got rid of a substantial number of fat cells.

This one is not scientific but makes a good read:
http://tm.wc.ask.com/r?t=c&s=a&id=3...81417.html?vc=0
And while I am at it - the presently accepted cellular level belief of HOW one loses weight when there is less food than needed to sustain its present size (AKA dieting) is that first the contents of the cell are used up - going for uses elsewhere--whether it be brain function or energy etc. The contents are replaced with fluid. Then a certain point comes and the fluidy replacement gets whooshed out and the entire cell gets reabsorbed. That comes very close to the "when you are not losing the pounds you are losing the inches--not quite--but close)

That brings us to a past urban myth about fat cells never die--they just shrink and sit there like hungry vultures, waiting to refill themselves and make you an enormous balloon once more. Well that one was disproved some time ago.

I think in conclusion it is safe to say that current scientific opinion is that if fat cells sit around empty for long enough they will die and be re-aborbed.

Last edited by RCFletcher : Tue, Jan-04-05 at 05:31.
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  #44   ^
Old Tue, Jan-04-05, 07:57
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,651
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Thank you, Robert.

I had found that http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30...ries/s20847.htm link you posted before but then couldn't find it again when I needed to post evidence.

Don't you just hate that, lol!!
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  #45   ^
Old Wed, Jan-05-05, 10:31
Tara27 Tara27 is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: CALP
Stats: 176/176/125 Female 5' 2"
BF:
Progress: 0%
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I really don't see how it matters how many fat cells we have persay. I would rather have 11 billion fat cells rather empty than 10 billion full to overflowing. Doesn't it only matter the actual number of fat in stores as opposed to literally how many fat cells you have?
Sorry if I'm in left field, LOL I'm usually coherent but I'll admit, I took Chemistry and Physics over Biology.
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