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  #16   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 11:49
miezimau's Avatar
miezimau miezimau is offline
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Posts: 3,194
 
Plan: trying to figure it out
Stats: 214/201.4/160 Female 5'6
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: Texas
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now it all makes sense
Thanks Zule
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  #17   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 14:12
Redwood Redwood is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: CALP
Stats: // Female average
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Location: Central CA Coast Range
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyMH
I got my information from a Juice Plus seminar that I attended. Judy


Is this the same information on the empty fat cells filling with water that started this thread?

I would love to hear more of the specifics of what they said.

I am interested in the process of transformation of fat cells and this is a step I have not heard of.
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 11:01
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
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Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
Default Read This Zuleikaa!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
Update post.


I'm sorry, Zuleikaa, but if you can take the time to repeatedly bump this theory of yours up so people keep seeing it, you can take the time to give us some evidence that your ideas are backed up by some science. I can't find anything on the web to indicate that the stuff you say has any truth behind it at all.

It's a nice idea, but if it isn't backed up by science, please stop bumping it up for more people to read and think of as fact. There are a number of non-scientific people on this board who will be fooled by your "don't ask me for proof because you won't understand the proof"-attitude, and I think it is a disservice to them to pretend that that's okay. GIVE US EVIDENCE!
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 11:08
Lipid's Avatar
Lipid Lipid is offline
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Posts: 2,112
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 248/138/125 Female 5 ft. 3
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: West Virginia
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We just had a study on cells in my Anatomy class... the only time we build new adipose cells is as a baby and puberty...they never leave unless they are surgically removed or lipo-suctioned out...they just collapse as we lose weight and fill back up if we gain...they can fill with water when we first lose weight and that is what causes the whoosh of weight loss... I have just experienced this myself... stayed right on plan with no loss for over 2 week other than 1 pound and then had 3 pounds leave in the past 2 days.... it happened one other time since I began this WOE in April of this year... then I went down 5 pounds in 2 days after not losing for close to 3 weeks....both time, especially this last time.... I went down inches without the scale budging and my clothes got looser.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 12:22
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,665
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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I believe I did say they filled with water. So your only dispute is whether they die or remain collapsed? I think that's a petty point but....

http://www.bodytrends.com/articles/...compomronnw.htm

Technically, a normal-sized person has between 30 and 35 billion fat cells. When a person starts losing weight, the fat cells decrease in size but the number of fat cells generally stays the same. Once weight is gained, it is difficult to lose because the fat cells essentially shrink in size. However, some studies published seem to imply that fat cells can be destroyed as a result of certain medications and that a decrease in fat cell number may occur if a lower body weight is maintained for a prolonged period of time. The habit of maintaining a healthy body composition level may lead to a permanent body composition level.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...cgi?artid=24345

http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/keepingfit/ARTICLE/fatcells.HTM

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...40510012211.htm

http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=1721

I think these articles show that though fat cells hang around for a long time, they can, do and will die if you break the cycle of yoyo dieting and maintain a steady every lower weight.

Many of us on the board have steadily seen medical "truisms and assumptions about health and the body exposed for fallicies.

Though fat cells grow in both size and number I just don't believe that even at the extreme of someone losing 300 pounds and keeping it off for three years has the same number of fat cells they started with. JMO.

I await more studies to make news.
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 15:01
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
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Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...cgi?artid=24345

http://www.hhp.ufl.edu/keepingfit/ARTICLE/fatcells.HTM

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...40510012211.htm

http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=1721

I think these articles show that though fat cells hang around for a long time, they can, do and will die if you break the cycle of yoyo dieting and maintain a steady every lower weight.


All of these studies are about artificial means of killing fat cells, not natural ones. I don't dispute that fat cells CAN be killed, I am asking for evidence that they ARE being killed after they fall into disuse. I don't disagree with you necessarily, I just don't choose to believe your: burn fat -> fill with water -> lose water -> die, timeline just because you think so. You may be right in the end with your theory, but I believe that people should BACK UP statements that they put forth as FACT, and clarify that they are OPINIONS if that is what they are.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 19:10
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,665
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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This one says that insulin depletion can kill fat cells. LC is about insulin control, so that's very possible.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...cgi?artid=24345
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  #23   ^
Old Wed, Sep-01-04, 20:31
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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I personally feel that is kind of a giant leap. I'm not trying to be picky, but I really don't feel the last article posted supports your original theory at all, but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 09:22
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
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Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
This one says that insulin depletion can kill fat cells. LC is about insulin control, so that's very possible.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...cgi?artid=24345


In summary, this article showed that fat cells that were still FILLED WITH FAT were killed when insulin was RAPIDLY AND EXREMELY depleted, not empty fat cells. Secondly, when insulin was gradually depleted in the last experiment, although some cells died, there was much less evidence of massive fat cell death, and the authors do not mention any correlation between empty cells and the small amount of death that occured.

My opinion is: I don't know that I would extend this to include a conclusion about empty fat cells because the authors seem to think that the death was related to energy depletion in the filled fat cells, which may not be such an important thing in empty fat cells. My understanding is that your OPINION is that you WOULD extend this conclusion to empty fat cells. Is that correct?
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 10:39
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,665
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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I amend my explanation of the whoosh to say that when fat cells are filled with water they collapse but remain.

This subject is extremely fascinating. There are many studies showing that increased cell receptivity to insulin greatly reduces cell size and there is a study that destruction of the blood vessels serving fat cells causes the fat cells to die. When you lose weight, a lot of weight, don't you lose the blood vessels that serviced that lost weight? What happens to them? Do they die, shrink or what? Perhaps, in the short term they disappear as smaller cells require less blood? What happens in the long term?

Also, as you've noted, studies show that cells can be caused to die through application of drugs, supplements and hormones. So fat cells can die. And who takes more supplements than many of us on the board? There are also studies showing that upon weight reduction fat disappears from around internal organs and bone marrow. Where does it go? There are no long term studies following people who have successfully reduced from a high weight and maintained the lower weight for some years. The longest study I found was two years. That's very short in human terms.

After all these years of "certain" science the medical community are just now discovering that fat is biologicallly active. How long did it take them to "discover" or admit that insulin resistance is a factor in obesity and blood lipids? They still haven't come around to accepting that lc can reverse obesity and its accompanying diseases.

I still believe that fat cells die. It may take longer than two years of maintaining a stable lesser weight, but I believe they can die. I further believe that it will probably be proved by the people on this board. If there's anything we've learned here it's to take medical "gospel" with a large serving of salt.

Meanwhile, I thank you for the opportunity to delve into some fascinating reasearch.

Here's some more reading.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pu...q_no_115=152529

http://diss.kib.ki.se/2003/91-7349-631-6/

http://www.pharmacy.ohio-state.edu/...f/9jul2004a.pdf
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 11:51
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Yes, these articles, like the ones you posted earlier, are fascinating in that they give ideas and hope about possible medical treatments for obesity coming in the future by artificially killing fat cells in obese individuals.

I'm curious about where you read that the fat cells "fill with water" as they empty of fat? I know another reader mentioned learning it in a class they took, but I'd like to know what kinds of research came up with this idea. I know that textbooks often describe a simplistic/general version of what the authors think might be happening for cases where we really aren't sure, so I was wondering if this was one of those cases or if there was real data for it.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 13:39
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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"Don't ask me to prove it, or how I know. Just take it on trust."

I'm sorry Zul, but instead of this statement, I really feel the best interest of fact-finding and research would be better served if you just say "In my opinion" or "My own personal theory" so trusting readers don't think things like this are proven fact. I'm not saying your theory has NO merit, just that it's not proven yet, and the statement you made sounded WAY too much like what the people trying to dis low-carb say!

I know you don't intend it to be harmful in ANY way, and you're just trying to help. I've just been frustrated when I've asked you for proof of some other statements you've made and I feel I got an evasive answer at best, with a link to an article that doesn't definitivly answer what was asked. (IE the "CA's react to fiber" statements.)

Just adding "in my opinion" might seem nitpicky to you, but it would really help separate the fact from theories here.

Thanks.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 13:46
RCFletcher's Avatar
RCFletcher RCFletcher is offline
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Posts: 5,985
 
Plan: Food Combining
Stats: 220/175/154 Male 5feet5inches
BF:?/27.5%/19.6%
Progress: 68%
Location: Newcastle UK
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Hi Zuleikaa - it seems like ages since we last 'spoke'.

I just read this posting. Is it true the fat cells are actually reabsobed i.e. they eventally dissappear? I thought they just hung around empty forever. I hope I'm wrong!

Edit: Sorry I've just read above and I think my question has been answered.

I just found this one which definitely states that fat cells die:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30...ries/s20847.htm

Last edited by RCFletcher : Thu, Sep-02-04 at 13:56.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 14:19
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCFletcher
Hi Zuleikaa - it seems like ages since we last 'spoke'.

I just read this posting. Is it true the fat cells are actually reabsobed i.e. they eventally dissappear? I thought they just hung around empty forever. I hope I'm wrong!

Edit: Sorry I've just read above and I think my question has been answered.

I just found this one which definitely states that fat cells die:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30...ries/s20847.htm


Hi RCFletcher, the conventional wisdom, i.e. current medical opinion, is that the fat cells hang around empty, ready to be filled back up again when us fat people regain our weight/fat stores, just like our body expects us to do. They say that the only way to keep from getting these extra fat cells is to never get fat in the first place. From what Zuleikaa has said here, her opinion is that after some indeterminate length of time, these cells will die because the body will realize that it doesn't need them, but the scientific evidence for that hasn't been shown so far. I think it is safe to say that the emptied out fat cells will DEFINITELY hang around for at least a year or two, after which it is unknown whether they die or continue to wait for new fat; sound about right Zuleikaa?
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Sep-02-04, 14:27
jjoyb jjoyb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 212
 
Plan: Atkins-maintwhilepregnant
Stats: 201//135 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Texas
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From RCFletchers link about fat cells:
John Prins: There is some evidence for that [that dietary fat gets directly stored as fat]. We can make our own fat, even if we don't eat fat, although that's not a very efficient process. So in general, the fat that's in our body comes directly from dietary fat. The other important thing about fat is that we know that fat doesn't suppress our appetite to the same extent as protein or sugars do, and so for the same number of calories consumed, if you eat a high fat diet, you will feel I guess more hungry after a high fat meal than you will if you eat protein or sugar.

My comment: not the LCarber's dream guy, right? i'm still reading, so i'll post more when I get to the part where he claims that fat cells die in the body in response to emptying out only.
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