Let's at least try to keep it based in reality here.

it is very much based in reality, despite your sarcasm. humans are the most powerful species on the earth. if some group were able to have their will with us, i wonder how we would feel, being penned up, fattened up, and then eaten. of course, we were taken care of nicely. people change their tunes pretty quickly, when the shoe is on the other foot.

you guys have absolutely no argument to defeat a very basic idea, which is:

do unto others .....

just admit it - you want to eat meat, because you have grown up to like it, and at least not yet, unwilling to stop eating it. all these rationalizations only serve to make you look silly - like the kid with chocolate all over his teeth, telling his parents that he did not eat any of the cookies.

Since you have stated on a couple of occasions that you are a Christian (I am as well, by the way), I have to ask you: Is God immoral or a hypocrite?

Lisa, when gymeejet comes up with the "humans = tasty" scenario -- it's a reference to a well-worn hypothetical that is often used in undergraduate philosophy classes.

This hypothetical has been around for a good thirty years, if not more.

(In fact, someone's actually written a novel based on this hypothetical. Can't remember the guy's name, but the title of the book is "Under the Skin." It's written from the point of view of a race of aliens who come to this planet and start harvesting human beings for food. Some bleeding heart liberal alien comes along at some point and says something like "Well, shoot, shouldn't we be compassionate to these poor animals and leave them to live their lives in peace?" The other aliens say "Are you kidding? We're hungry. We need the food. Anyway, look at them. They walk on two legs. They don't speak our language. They have no culture to speak of. They can't even accomplish inter-galactic travel. They're stupid, and we're hungry. You can't possibly think we should sacrifice our well-being for the sake of this clearly inferior species.")

And you know...based on that logic, I would be hard pressed to disagree with them. Unlike animals, I can see it from their perspective; survival of the fittest/strongest/smartest. Kill and eat to live. Not that I relish the thought of becoming the main course on an alien table. Of course the hypothetical situation doesn't take into account the fact that these hypothetical aliens could also just as easily find the animals of our planet as tasty as most of us do and eat them instead of us. After all, cows and sheep are infinitely easier to catch and kill than humans who are quite a bit smarter and more resourceful. Who knows...they may find us barbaric in our practice of eating plant life which they may consider far more advanced than us? Once you start getting into hypothetical situations, it can become whatever you wish it to.
However....theoretical situations aside, the question is still whether or not it is ethical to kill animals for food and the reality still remains that the planet that we currently live on is not capable of sustaining vegetarianism on a global scale. Is it ethical to propose that an entire global community convert to a way of eating that has the potential of endangering the survival of millions of humans because it is not capable of sustaining them all or is the suffering and deaths of millions of humans of no consequence as long as no animals are harmed in the process? Promoting it as a personal choice seems far more ethical to me.

I agree, I've never found the alien hypothetical very compelling. It's simply used to expose the fallacy of the idea that "greater intelligence/techonology = right to kill those with lesser intelligence/technology."

The reason the hypothetical is so popular is that it's very common for people to justify eating nonhuman animals by reference to superior human intelligence. Exposing that fallacy is pretty much all that hypothetical is good for.

As for the planet's capacity for supporting vegetarianism on a global scale -- that's a different argument, and not one I feel capable of engaging.

It's never been my position that we have a right to kill animals indiscriminately because we are smarter/stronger/more advanced than they are, even if that principle plays itself out on in nature every day (remember the lion killing the gazelle for food?). Your response to that scenario is that the lion doesn't have any choice but the kill the gazelle (or antelope or zebra, etc...) for food and therefore the ethics of it don't come into question, but we do. My position is that when it comes down to it, we also have no choice unless we are willing to drastically reduce the numbers of our own species to accomodate that position so that vegetarianism is possible for everyone on the planet and in that situation would have a viable choice to eat animals or not.
Who knows, with advanced technology, it may someday be possible to produce a cheap complete protein source that is non-animal in origin in sufficient quantity to supply the entire population. Until such time, though, we're still stuck with the necessity of needing both plants and animals to live and we need both to ensure that as many people as possible have sufficient food to survive.
After all, a person who is starving or who has starving children doesn't want to debate the ethics of whether or not he should kill an animal to eat...their survival and the survival of their children is more important to them at that point than the life of an animal. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but I have yet to meet a person who would be willing to starve or allow their children to starve to avoid killing an animal when the death of that animal would prevent it.

I know, Lisa, you have never espoused the position that "greater intelligence = right to kill those with lesser intelligence." I was just trying to explain the history behind gymeejet's hypothetical.

(Also, to answer your rebuttal: "Why wouldn't the hypothetical aliens eat nonhuman animals?", in the hypo, the aliens are four-legged and prefer to eat animals -- primates -- that resemble the aliens the least. This detail is used to show students that it is unethical to base moral decisions on morphological difference or similarity to oneself.)

And, yes, many vegetarians I know *do* think we should drastically reduce the numbers of human beings on the planet -- though perhaps not for quite the reasons you suggest.

And I agree, if one were starving, and if no other food source were available, then yes, under those circumstances, killing a nonhuman animal could be a necessary (and therefore not unethical) act.

You know...in that hypothetical alien human = tasty situation, I can't help but think that considering the numbers and types of toxic substances that so many of us put into our bodies during our lifetimes (prescription drugs, non-prescription drugs, transfats, preservatives, dyes, etc...) that any alien species might view us as no better than what we low carbers view junk food....tasty but toxic? Now isn't that a sobering thought?
Furthermore, the really paranoid among us could make a case for the FDA food pyramid being nothing but an alien plot to fatten us all up for harvest...the government's in league with the aliens!

You crack me up! Yes, we will be super-tasty because our high-carb diets have fattened us well.

And, like veal calves, our lack of exercise will make our muscles super-tender and extra-delicious!

Yup...and next thing you know all the alien doctors will be putting their patients on "low human" or "human-free" diets.

OK now that DID make me laugh out loud. And I needed it! God, here I am at work on Labor Day Weekend.

I wish an alien WOULD come along and put me out of my misery right now.

Bummer about having to work on a holiday weekend. I understand that one well having worked in service industries and having a DH that did until recently. He switched jobs about a month ago and this will be the first holiday weekend in 10 years where he hasn't had to work at least one of the days that weekend. The girls are like..."Wow...you mean dad is going to be home 4 days in a row and we're not on vacation??"

Actually, I think cows are VERY cute. I live in a rural area and see them all the time out grazing.
VERY cute...and VERY tasty!