OH AND JUST TO HUMOR MYSELF...
It doesnt matter how I treat Gotbeer anyway
because when I die... I just die...!!!

The word used, oinos, can be used to refer to either grape juice OR fermented wine. The steward who tasted the wine was surprised that the best vintage had been saved for last, as the usual practice was to bring out the good stuff first and then the cheap stuff later, once everyone was tipsy. In this context, that appears to indicate that "oinos" was being used to refer to fermented wine.

And no, I do not believe in the word of God. I have explored a collection of texts written by various people in the first and second centuries and modified by countless scribes since then. I think Jesus is a pretty good guy. I am not "saved." I do not believe suicide SHOULD lead to hell. I said "under Christianity, it would lead to hell." Read carefully, and please do not attempt to enforce upon me beliefs in which I do not place stock.

Thirdly -- you disgrace yourself by your "humor." Gotbeer's philosophy, which seems pretty close to mine, would prescribe good treatment of other people for no other reason than that it is the right thing to do. I don't need a carrot and a stick to make myself "behave." All I need is the knowledge that by my right actions, I spread a little light around.

I believe that when we die we just cease to be.That is a possibility. a unselfish one at that.The old world was a superstitious one , monotheism gave it logic/practicality. Morality is a different subject, cause even in the pagan days you had moral people.while in our enlightened age we have as many evil people as in the pagan days.God did not change us.We must change ourselves!.Yes we stumble and err (abortion) but we still stay the course.we bump to the right then to the left but were on course.this is called humanism and clergy hate it! Islam seems to be a devout belief,but thgey still commit crimes on their women . Why cant women be priests/rabbis/imams? cause we are still victimizing them!so much for the three religions.
Imagine not having rights on your own body! i dont like the idea of abortion but its the womens decision not mine. sorry for the rant...

Actually I dont disgrace myself with my humor.. because it had meaning behind it..
no wonder people just kill and go on without remorse.. they believe as you do.. there is no punishment.. so if i dont get caught.. all is well..
you used the word "appear" to be fermented.. the bad stuff is the stuff that gets you drunk.. the wine they were speaking of is close to red wine.. which is good for the bones.. getting too particular about it is what holds people back from knowing what its all about.. i believe they call it Pharisee-ism ( or did i make that up)..

and xxovereasy.. my comments were for bookery not you.. i say all this in love.. it makes me laugh on the inside because I use to argue with people about there not being a God just as you do.. but if you simply ASK HIM TO PROVE HIMSELF.. you wouldnt believe it.. he actually will..

So we need religion to scare criminals into being good? Well we've got it. It doesn't work. Being "good" comes when you accept that that is the right thing to do, whether through Christianity or some other faith, or through personal reflection. The meaning behind your humor is precisely what disgraced you: that the only reason to be a good person is because of punishment or reward in an afterlife.

As for the second paragraph, you "appear" to be babbling. Red wine will get you drunk just as well as the "bad stuff," even if it's good for your bones. You would benefit from getting a little *more* particular. And yes, you made "Pharisee-ism" up, and I don't appreciate your construction. While a basic tenet of the New Testament is rejection of most of Mosaic law, there is no need to denigrate it. The Pharisees were resented because they were in power. They fulfilled an important role for much of the Jewish population in that area at the time.

it doesnt work because people keep discrediting the Word of God.. and we could go back and forth about it.. and white, red, or blue wine.. but it doesnt matter because you dont "believe" any of it anyway...

I agree with much of what you have been saying. Do you ever post at the No Answers in Genesis and Johns' Bible page?

http://members3.boardhost.com/john412/

I post there the same as "gary"

Speaking of wine/grape juice/Koolaid, let's talk about biblical interpretations, shall we? And please don't assume I haven't read the Bible just because I am not a Christian.

Here is a start (from http://www.religioustolerance.org):

Revelation 21:8:
This chapter deals with life after death. Some people will attain Heaven; others are sent to Hell, which is here described as the lake which burns with fire and brimstone (sulfur). In his commentary on this verse, Matthew Henry refers to the horrors of Hell as involving the: "...far greater terrors and agonies of eternal death..." Its victims will: "...die and [continue] to be always dying." 1

Verse 8 describes various groups who will automatically be relegated to Hell. In a typical biblical display of religious intolerance, the verse defines one group of victims as consisting of "unbelievers" -- apparently those who follow a non-Christian religion, or no religion at all. This would involved more than two thirds of the human race.

How the verse is translated:

There is no consistency in the translations of this verse, as they appear in various English versions of the Bible. The sixth group which is destined for Hell has been identified as:

21st century King James Version: "sorcerers"
American Standard Version: "sorcerers"
An American Translation: those who "practice witchcraft"
The Answer (New Century Version): those "who do evil magic"
Amplified Bible: "practicers of magic arts"
Authentic New Testament: "sorcerers"
Darby Translation: "sorcerers"
Good News Version: "those who practice magic"
James Moffatt Translation: "sorcerers"
Jerusalem Bible: "fortune tellers"
King James Version: "sorcerers"
Living Bible: "those conversing with demons"
Modern Language Bible: "those practicing magic arts"
New American Bible: "sorcerers"
New American Standard Bible: "sorcerers"
New English Bible "sorcerers"
New International Version: "those who practice magical arts"
New Living Translation: "those who practice witchcraft"
New Revised Standard Version: "sorcerers"
New Testament & Psalms: An Inclusive Version: "sorcerers"
New World Translation: "those practicing spiritism"
Phillips Modern English "those trafficking...in sorcery"
The Promise: (Contemporary English Version): "uses witchcraft"
Rheims New Testament: ""sorcerers"
Revised Standard Version: "sorcerers"
Revised English Bible: "sorcerers"
Today's English Version "those who practice magic"
Today's New International Version: "those who practice magic arts"
Tyndale's New Testament: "sorcerers"
World English Bible: "sorcerers" The translation has a footnote: "The word for 'sorcerers' here also includes users of potions and drugs."
Young's Literal Translation: "sorcerers"


Conclusions:
In the 31 translations studied, the original Greek has been translated as:

Sorcerers, or those practicing evil magic: 19 times. These are people who engage in black magic to harm or murder others.
Those who practicing magic: 6 times. This would presumably include people who either try to hurt or heal others through spells, incantations, etc. It is unclear whether this would cover Christian clergy who conduct healing services.
Witches: 3 times. This presumably includes people performing at least one of the 18 different practices that have been referred to as "witchcraft." It is not clear to which of the 18 practices the passage refers.
Fortune tellers: once. Presumably this would include tea-leaf readers, palm readers, preparers of horoscopes, people who predict the weather based on the actions of a groundhog, or the diameter of caterpillars, etc.
Those who contact demons: once.
Spiritists: those who contact the dead: once.

The latter two categories may include channeling by New Age practitioners.

It would seem that this verse has traditionally been translated incompetently. It appears that the translators simply selected their favorite evil, and inserted it into the text. This is seen throughout many translations of the Bible, particularly with passages that refer either to homosexuality, poisoning, or evil sorcery.



Some commentaries on Revelations 21:8:
Clarke's Commentary: defines "sorcerers" as "Persons who, by drugs, philtres, fumigations, &c., pretend to produce supernatural effects, chiefly by spiritual agency." This would appear to refer to persons performing magic. 2
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible defines sorcerers very broadly. He includes: "conjurers, dealers with familiar spirits, necromancers, and such as use the magic art...and poisoners of kings and princes; whoredoms and witchcrafts..." (Bigoted statements against Roman Catholics deleted). 3 It is unclear how he can derive so many varied activities from a single Greek word.
Wesley Notes comments "...whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters - These three sins generally went together; their part is in the lake" of fire. 4



What does the original Greek text imply?
The critical word here is "pharmakeus" pronounced <far-mak-yoos'>. It is derived from "pharmakon," which means a drug.
It is commonly believed to have two meanings: A person who uses magical potions for to poison others.
A person who engaged in black magick to harm others -- a sorcerer.


A few commentators suggest a third meaning: A person who goes around spreading dissention - poisoning people's minds.


Of all of the translations, the word "sorcerer" is probably the best. Unfortunately, while this term usually refers to a person who casts evil spells to harm others, it is occasionally used to refer to any spell caster, whether the intent is to harm or to heal. So the optimum translation would probably be "evil sorcerer."
Since the Wiccan Rede specifically prohibits Wiccans from harming, dominating, manipulating or controlling others, Wiccans could in no way be covered by Revelation 21:8.

References Used
"Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible," at: http://www.ccel.org/h/
"Clarke's Commentary - Revelation 21," at: http://www.godrules.net/
"John Gill's Exposition of the Bible: Revelation 21:8," at: http://bible.crosswalk.com/
"Wesley Notes on the Revelation of Jesus Christ: Chapter XXI," at: http://www.ccel.org/

and out of these "interpretations"
you've gathered..
God isnt real?!
the only think that ive gathered is that the modern day versions are water-down..
but there is..
an original version.. that IS real...
i think God will excuse this..
being that i grow tired of this conversation, i leave you with this..
I will win in the end no matter what..
if im wrong.. i will just cease to exist.. doesnt matter what lil ole uneducated me things..
if youre wrong.. your wonderful beautiful educated mind goes to hell.

To Gary - no, this is my major posting site - the rest of my online time is consumed with research and/or gaming. Religious debates are so time-consuming and convoluted that I rarely get to treat myself to one, but here, I just couldn't resist - the made me do it, I guess.

Regarding wine: as an observant Jew, Jesus would have HAD to consume 4 cups of the fermented stuff at each Passover seder. During Purim, drinking is required - indeed, Of course, there was Cana, where he dumped over 100 gallons of primo wine into a mob that was already "well drunk", according to John 2:10.

Oh, that reminds me of another wine-related bibical inconsistency - one that makes Jesus's prophetic powers seem pretty lame.

At the last supper: Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

At the cruci-fiction: Matthew 27:48 And immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine, and gave Him a drink.

Oops!



Just so - one can rationalize good behavior as a "social contract" or "enlightened self-interest" or "moral compass" or whatever, but for me, it is just the right thing to do.

Would someone whose depravity is just barely contained by the fear of eternal punishment do well once they squeaked into heaven on a technicality? I'd rather an innately good person (with sincere doubts derived from honestly observing the evils and errors of religion) make the grade.

Personally, I'm looking forward to either extinction or hell.

Oh I never said God wasn't real, but I believe in the Goddess also. You can't have one without the other, there has to be balance (think yin-yang). Do you see much balance in the world right now? Hardly.

In the bible.. it said the believers are the bride of Christ.. Plus.. God is neither male nor female..
He (i use he for lack of a better term)is a spirit.. looking at it from rational terms is what messes up the minds of people.. you have to see it from a spiritual point of view.. only the world says that things have to have a yin and a yang.. at one point we thought the world was flat.. we are capable of making mistakes.. just like I am capable of being wrong about God.. but I am safe..

To b-ready - So that is what the scripture means when Jesus was teaching the kingdom of god to the young naked man who fled and left his loin cloth. Was he teaching that guy to be his bride. Problem is the the writings in the Bible are only unsubstantiated assertions made by primitive men full of fallabilities. These same men voted on what books should be in the Bible. This procedure was also done with the new testament. The spiritual point of view is what you make up in your own head. We can today read analyze and critique those same books and cast our own votes. Thomas Paine said it so well in the Age of Reason over 200 years ago. Rational thinking leads to the truth. What you describes leads to delusions - you are recommending for us to check our brains at the gate. The bible is full of errors and contradictions and the gospels are nothing more than narrative fictions. So yeah throw your brain away, rational thinking and logic are the mythical satan's tools right!
German ministers in the 1800's did form criticism of the gospels and determined they were completely unreliable. So what they did is say there is still something to the story of jesus and believed in a Christ of Faith. Spiritual thinking is what leads to brutal intolerant theocracies like the defunct Taliban.

okie dokie..
none of this matters.. it doesnt matter whether the bible is
full of errors or not.. because in the end.. we will all cease to exist.
it doesnt matter about people like hussein and hitler..
because they are going to get away with there ways..
and in the end they are going to cease to exist..
i love this..
now i can go find the bastard that molested me for years
and kill him.. there is no punishment waiting on him or me..