Thank you GotBeer, you are my hero!

I don't have to worship you, do I?

PS Have you read The DaVinci Code? Very very interesting theological discussions...

You want to really freak out.Get a copy of "the mushroom and the holy cross" written by John allegory. Who was he? He was the lead british scientist on the task of analyzing the dead sea scrolls. He was known as the foremost authority on ancient languages. Well when he was through translating the old/new testament based on sumerian language ( 1st written lang) then he got a different answer. He was promptly incommunicated by the church. This book was written in the 70's and is half filled with references in 7 other languages that back up his definition. Its a tough read. but fascinating...eg jesus was first written in sumeria 3000 yrs before christ! and it meant son of god even then.otherwise have a nice day....

Gotbeer

>John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with >God, and the Word was God.

>The xians I know see little or no distinction between God and God's >word. They feel that to betray or doubt one is equivalent to betraying >or doubting the other.

Well fundamentalist Christians generally don't interpret the Bible according to the way credible Scripture Scholars do. Perhaps, you shouldn't paint with such a broad bursh.

The above verse, is the inspired word "about" God, not direct words from God. The inspired word is divinely inspired, so it is the true word of God in it's meaning and can only be interpreted through the people and events which they are part of, i.e., the above verse was speaking about Jesus, being the "Word." Jesus did in fact, became flesh and testified to his divine origin. "Before Abraham was, I AM."


>Touting "love thy neighbor" while ignoring the rather unloving behavior >of believers is the source of our anxiety over xian hypocrisy.

Unloving behavior of others down in past history, was not in my original post, it was pointed out as a means of attack, from what I can see. Hence, no point in debating it, the person has her own agenda she is following which open dialog isn't part of.

Of course there are those who did not follow the gospel as Jesus taught it. Jesus himself was condemned to death by those who were suppose to know the Scriptures and to be people of God. Does this make what Jesus and the rest of the Scriptures false?

If it does, then the Declaration of Independence is also false document, as well as the US Constitution, because some of the framers like Jefferson, owned slaves and the US Government has not always lived according to those documents.

However, we know the words of the Declaration of Independence are true. We also know the words of the Gospel are true, and despite the fact there are those who did not live by it. However, there were many who did, including people who lived in our own time, such as Mother Teresa.

You have a problem with fundamentalist Christians. Don't put me in the same box with them, we are different.

The majority of the people here are on a diet. That means that you cant eat a normal diet and loose weight. You are going to have to restrict something. So no matter what the bible says.. no matter how they did eat. You are going to have to eat to loose weight. you are either going to restrict your calories, your types of food, or take some supplements or something. also, reading and understanding the bible takes spiritual insight. God has closed the understanding of it to the unsaved. anyone who is not a christian and trying to understand the bible is spinning their wheels. also, no matter what type of language the bible was written in, it doesnt make it untrue. it just makes it another reason for people who want to be lost to stay lost.

eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what im trying to say.. is obviously "we" that are trying to loose weight cant eat what we have been eating in the past.. maybe in smaller portions but definetly not the same.. that is why i dont understand why people try to compare it to ONE scripture that doesnt apply to their situation.. reading the bible out of context...

Why, you are welcome, Shelly. Pagans are indeed a loving folk – I’ve really enjoyed my experiences with them even though my naturalistic perspective is not always in sync. Pagans rock.

Your admiration makes me . Your worship would make my head explode.

Davinci Gourmet yes, DaVinci Code, no.




Ah, but the moral utility of religion is one justification for it. I believe it is not only the intent of the religion, but the results that matter. If religion leads to evil, we ought to flee from it, even if it had the best of (misguided) intentions. Low-fat/high carb diets are a great example – they had the high-minded intention of controlling our weight, but the results were a public health disaster that we all are fighting our way out of.

If you can’t defend the obvious evils of religion, then yes, there is no point in debating it because the debate is over, and religion loses. (Maybe you could make the “host” out of bacon, instead – just a thought.)



Well, then I suggest you folks get your act together – the endless schisms are getting annoying. These amazing levels of disagreement between co-religionists do not inspire my confidence that any of you have any of it right. Contrast that with science, where 99% of the knowledge base is well-settled, and the working process is to resolve the open issues with hard evidence.



Hmmm. One wonders then how any of the “unsaved” could become “saved” if that saving knowledge were closed to them. The existence of just one saved person (you, Beth) pretty much hammers that one into little greasy bits.

Actually, what you are saying is that I have to accept the lies and errors of the bible as true in order to get salvation – check your devil-given brain at the door to the altar. I’d rather roast in hell than surrender my logical mind – thanks, honey, but no thanks.

This might be a valid objection if all people of faith committed evil acts but they don't. For every person you can name who has done something bad in the name of their faith or while professing a certain faith, there are many more who have not and live up to the tenets of their belief. Keep in mind also that people can profess anything they wish, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Calling myself a Christian and going into a church once in a while doesn't make me one any more than calling myself a horse and going into a barn once in a while makes me one of those, either. Jesus himself said, "They will know that you are my followers by the love that you have one for another." In other words...it's not what you say that matters, even to God...it's what you do. I could also use this same argument to show that lack of faith is bad since those who lack faith commit evil acts...if lack of faith leads people to commit evil acts, it must therefore be a bad thing. Further...if religion leads to evil, what excuse do those who don't believe in a god or have any particular faith who commit evil have? What causes them to behave that way?



She didn't say that "saving knowledge" was closed to the unsaved, but rather understanding of the deeper meanings of scripture. The number of scriptures that I've seen quoted out of context so far seems to bear that out. It doesn't take divine revelation to understand the words, "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotton Son so that whosoever believes in Him might have eternal life."

Interesting to see that this debate has gone from "God doesn't exist" to "I don't like what those who claim to follow Him do."

please dont overly scrutinize my words everyone..
i -in no way claim to be perfect. i just know that when i was lost, i couldnt understand the bible.. then when i gave God a try.. it all opened up to me.. none of us here has studied the word of God enough to make any judgements to whether it is wholly right or wrong. Gotbeer, it is very interesting that you would say that you would rather go to hell than not use your logical mind... hmm .. i hope you (logical thinker) are right because it is your eternal soul that you have to loose..if you are wrong..logic is totally seperate from the spirit..

furthermore..

logic would tell me not to eat a meat full of fat..
but in fact, you can do that and still loose weight..
Do you see how logical thinking can sometimes get you into trouble

Whatever happened to "for all are sinners..." - a passage I'm reading wrong? Don't you xians have to get re-forgiven periodically for your ongoing sinful natures?

Actually, one evil act can negate a million good ones - one nuke can level every cool store at the Galleria. If I save one life, and murder another, that doesn't balance the scales - I'm still a murderer.



Indeed - would the ongoing evil acts of religion be tolerated by a God who actually exists and cares? Of course not - yet, they continue unabated.



Ah, the old "quoted out of context" canard - Lisa, I gave you more credit than that. That is just another way of saying that the plain language of the bible can only be interpreted by those who have turned a blind eye to what it actually says - much like the wails of those who cling to their low-fat/high carb dogma despite all the carnage it causes. Dump your brains out, folks, they'll just hinder you in the pews.



LOGIC and scientific evidence validate the Atkins WOE. Beth's thinking that meat-eating is illogical appears to confuse "logic" with "years of government-sponsored misinformation." It is thus not surprising that years of religious indoctrination also appear to have substituted for rational thought.



The mind, or soul, or self, or whatever else one calls it, cannot exist apart from the body. Me, without my logical mind, is NOT ME. When my body dies, I will cease to be completely - I won't go to heaven or hell or even Michigan, and that suits me just fine. Heaven sounds like a horrific, wretched place - endless bad hymn-singing, bunnies, angels, rainbows, and executed (though penitent) murderers - yuck. As I understand it, hell is full of slot machines, playing cards, beer, loose women, rock-n-roll greats, and more fun folks of the sort I like to party with - you know, people with functional genitalia. So, even if I am wrong, I'll still be in great shape - feel free to visit me there whenever the hymns grow tiresome - I'll go and prepare a place for you. Jesus found it quite a refreshing three-day weekend after a really bad Friday - though how he squeezed 3 days into the mere 36 hours between his death (Friday PM) and resurrection (Sunday AM) is just another bible thingy I must be reading wrong.

The scripture is "If any man claims he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him" and I believe that this is true. We all have within us the innate desire to commit sin. However, you didn't clearly define what you consider evil, so I take it now that by evil you mean even the slightest infraction of God's law, whether it involves another person or not? So we can agree that a sinful nature is not limited to only those with faith and instead applies to all humans and is therfore not "caused" by having faith? But wait...how can one have sin if there is no God since sin is defined as rebellion against or the breaking of God's laws and decrees? If God doesn't exist, then neither does sin and evil is subjective since what one might consider evil another may not.




Who says that they are? Actually, "religion" doesn't commit any evil acts since it is a collection of rules and ideas regarding the nature God and how we should behave; people commit evil acts. Does the fact that the penalty does not immediately follow the infraction (although there are examples in the Bible when it did) mean that the sinner will "get off the hook" indefinitely? Do we really want that [immediate punishment] to be the case since the Bible also states that "The wages [payment/penalty] of sin is death"? The Bible makes it pretty clear that we will all be called to give an account for our actions both good and bad. There are also more immediate penalties called "natural consequences for our actions" that God does allow us to experience. Personally, I appreciate the grace that allows me the time to recognize that I've sinned and ask for forgiveness.
Your statement above also implies that you believe that if God really existed and cared, He'd step in and stop someone every time that they were about to commit a sin. Again...do you really want that since it would mean the removal of any and all free will and instead make you a puppet without choice?



No..it means what it says. Scripture has been quoted out of context to suit the purposes of the poster in this thread and I'd be more than happy to supply examples and explain why they are out of context and don't have the meaning that the poster implied if you wish me to.

AH, but what about evil acts carried out by the Church???

Excerpt from "The Davinci Code," by Dan Brown:
____________________________________________________
The Catholic Inquisition published a book that arguably could be called the most blood-soaked publication in human history. Malleus Maleficarum --or The Witches Hammer -- indoctrinated the world to "the dangers of free-thinking women" and instructed the clergy how to locate, torture, and destroy them. Those deemed "witches" by the Church included all female scholars, priestesses, gypsies, mystics, nature-lovers, herb gatherers, and any women "suspiciously tuned to the natural world." Midwives were killed for their heretical practice of using medical knowledge to ease the pain of childbirth -- a suffereing, the Church claimed, that was God's rightful punishment for Eve's partaking of the Apple of Knowledge, thus giving birth to the idea of Original Sin. During three hundred years of witch hunts, the Church burned at the stake an astounding five million women.
_______________________________________________________

Three Hundred Years...FIVE MILLION INNOCENT WOMEN...All in the name of God.

Makes me sick just thinking about it, and probably Jesus too.

I am a spiritual person, but I do not, DO NOT, support or believe in organised religion. It is like saying, " Well, yeah, Hilter was a naughty boy, but look at all the great lessons to be learned in Mein Kampf." Sorry, no can do.

~From a woman that would have definitely been burned at the stake...

On that we can agree. I won't deny the fact that some pretty horrible things have been done in the name of religion and that scripture has been used (incorrectly and out of context, I might add) to justify it, but it still leads me to question if this is design flaw or operator error.
MY Bible teaches me that it is not my place to judge (as in condemn) another ("Judge not lest you be judged for the same measure that you use is that which shall be used against you."), that it is ultimately God's place to punish sin ("Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord"), that what I claim to be isn't as important as what I show myself to be ("Show me your faith by your words and I will show you my faith by my actions...for if you say to your brother who is hungry and cold, 'go, be warmed and well fed' and do nothing about it, what good does it do him?") and that we are to treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." and "Love one another as I have loved you."). It teaches me about forgiveness, compassion, grace and mercy as well as showing me that I am no less in need of redemption, forgiveness, grace and mercy than anyone else.



I've never seen a church (as in a physical building) purposely cause anyone harm, but I've seen plenty of people do so. To say that God sanctioned such actions doesn't mean that He did or does. I'd also like to point out that hundreds of thousands of Christians have received the same treatment (being burned at the stake, turned into human torches, cut in half, disemboweled, torn apart by lions and other wild animals for entertainment, crucified and brutally tortured) by those who feared "organized" religion as well and that it still happens today.

Funny how someone would post a quote from The Davinci Code, which is a Literature Fiction book.

Many of the myths being presented by anti-Catholic groups today are just that, myths. Much of their information comes from what is know by historians as the "Black Legends." The Black Legends were various books and articles written after the reformation by anti-Catholic states, throughout Europe. Much of the information is known to be exaggerated or outright lies about the Catholic Church. 5 million women being murdered by the Church is probably one of them.

Even the so called, "Burning Times," are attributed to the Catholic Church, however, the persecution of so called witches was done mostly in England between the 1500 and 1700's, under the Church of England which was controlled by the King. During that time, 3/4 of the Catholic clergy were put to death for refusing to denounce Rome and join the Kings religion.

That is why I need a savior.. (but you have to read the bible to know all that)
Once again..
That is exactly why I need salvation because I KNOW i am not perfect... we need a savior.. and if you seriously think that your mind/soul/spirit will not go on..
once again..
I SURE-hope-you-are-right....
If it werent for your soul.. your body wouldnt move
if someone stabs my flesh.. they cannot stab my spirit.. how can you kill the unseen?
I love everyone.. even you... its just hard for me sometimes to understand how one can look at nature and say that it was all -just here.. that no one created it.. somebody started this.. even if it was a big bang.. somebody caused that big bang..
something.. somewhere.. this is an intelligent earth.. why are there no mistakes in creation.. the trees are perfect.. the animals are just the way God wanted them.. they are even numbered sequentially.. have you ever heard of the Fibonacci sequence?
People choose to not believe because it feels better...
I know because I was once the same person as you..