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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 11:19
kdc01's Avatar
kdc01 kdc01 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Default Ketone supplements

I have been reading a book on Keto by Mark Sisson and he mentions ketone supplements. Does anyone here use them? Are they effective? Are they used daily, once or twice a week or just occasionally?

Ken
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 11:52
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 6,846
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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I don't take them and I don't know of anybody here that does. I recently listened to a presentation about them at a Winchester VA LowcarbUSA conference. They were presented as though they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. We all know how that turned out. There is some discussion about the topic HERE in my journal starting at post #85.

To me the presentation was more of a sales pitch. There may be some benefit to them under certain circumstances. They are not cheap. I eat keto most all of the time. I make my own ketones. So I really don't see the point. Plus, they are too new. Who knows if they are even safe long term? I'll let others play with them. My diet works well enough for me.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 12:38
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 6,846
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

I was just checking out Amazon to see how popular these products were. They do appear to be quite hot right now. I found a thoughtful review of THIS PRODUCT . This reviewer seemed to know much more about the subject than I. Here is his review...

Quote:
Top customer reviews
1.0 out of 5 stars
More Harm than Good

By J. Robertson July 22, 2017

Package Quantity: 5

First, the good: Tastes decent.

Now, the main reason I wanted to review this is that Pruvit and other ketone manufacturers are pulling the wool over your heads by conflating research on ketosis with taking ketones, which is completely different due to the difference in biochemical pathways of exogenous ketones verses endogenous ketones produced by being in a natural ketonic state. The data behind dietary ketosis is very good, but I didn’t like what I saw in the data regarding exogenous ketones. While naturally induced ketosis does cause an increase in fat used for fuel (due to the absence of dietary fuel – think carbs/glucose - needed to enter a state of ketosis), the data on exogenous ketone consumption (such as taking KetoOS) shows consistently that taking in exogenous ketones actually *halts* lipolysis and causes circulating glucose and fatty acids to be stored until the exogenous ketones have been used up as fuel. The exogenous ketones did have a benefit of mildly increasing energy and slightly increasing cognitive function due to the more immediate availability of fuel for the brain, but the negative feedback on lipolysis and suppression of hepatic glycogen use was disappointing. Also, one thing that alarmed me quite a bit more was that exogenous ketones caused a nearly doubled increase in blood insulin levels, because with the presence of exogenous ketones, the body has to facilitate the clearance of the circulating glucose not being used as fuel by sharply increasing insulin. That could be good or bad, depending on one’s goals I suppose: On one hand, insulin is very anabolic and could contribute to muscle gains, on the other, excessive blood insulin can lead to insulin resistance and fat storage, and potentially type 2 diabetes. That's terrible.

I think if a person wants to try exogenous ketones such as KetoOS, they should only do so on a severely carb restricted diet, so as not to risk the fatty acid storage and glucose uptake via the significantly increased insulin in the blood. I think if paired with a low carb diet, it could possibly help provide the needed endurance for a workout (due to the ATP increase from the ketones) without halting lipolysis in between (since on a low carb diet one wouldn’t be consuming much glucose or having much glucose conversion). For my type of workouts (80% lifting, 20% crossfit style), I’m relying more on the glycogen cycle and carb cycling, which already manipulate an intermittent natural ketotic state, and adding exogenous ketones would throw that off, suppress hepatic glycogen use, increase glycation, and result in the insulin spikes. Again, bad news.

On a positive note, there are good data showing that people with degenerative neurological conditions might benefit greatly from exogenous ketones. That’s something I hope they keep studying and maybe THAT's where exogenous ketones have a valid application.

I would recommend not boarding the ketone train. The studies I’ve seen (which is a pretty good bit) that ketone manufacturers regularly cite and footnote are not regarding exogenous ketones, but rather natural ketosis from dietary restriction, and that’s very, very different. I actually wrote to one company some years ago asking why they were using studies on dietary induced ketosis to support their ketone product when the biochemical pathways and metabolic processes were entirely different, with different resulting biproducts and consequences – unfortunately, he blew me off and got mad, so I never got an answer. When a company misuses scientific research and conflates something as different as nutritional ketosis with taking exogenous ketones, that should be a huge red flag.

You should approach stuff like that with extreme caution, especially when seeing those studies for one thing (exogenous ketones) equivocated to a similar thing (natural ketosis) that is in fact, not the same. In the meantime, perhaps exogenous ketones could be beneficial for anyone wanting a good secondary source of energy for “clean fuel” while on a ketogenic or low-carb diet, or for energy during endurance training that could make good use of the increase in ATP, or of course, for anyone suffering from a degenerative neurological disorder since there seems to be a lot of promise there in the data. What would be nice, is if one of the ketone companies, instead of using unrelated nutritional ketosis research, just said, “Hey, we’re going to prove our product. We’re doing a double-blind placebo controlled study using our product to produce data showing effects of taking it on various metabolic …” yada, yada, yada. Don't hold your breath though - as long as people hashtag #ItsScience there are masses who will just eat it up without researching.

On the Pruvit website, they have a video for their KetoOS product. It’s actually a pretty good primer video for explaining ketosis in general. My problem with it, is that toward the end it claims taking exogenous ketones will put a person into nutritional ketosis. But that’s not true at all according to the science. Nutritional ketosis is only achieved through nutritional deprivation of carbs/sugars, which then cause the body to enter true ketosis, producing its own ketone bodies. Taking in exogenous ketones simulates a pseudo-ketosis, but without the severe carb restriction, causing a cascade of metabolic events (like I described before) that halt lipolysis, rather than facilitate it.

Essentially, a person in true (nutritional) ketosis, has used the circulating carb/glucose and energy stores, so once they then burn through hepatic glycogen they’ll then enter nutritional ketosis and burn fat for energy. That’s the huge benefit of true ketosis. However, because ketones are a more readily available energy source, when a person takes exogenous ketones without sugar/carb deprivation, the body will use the ketones for energy first while storing the fatty acids and glucose energy (carbs/sugars) in two places: as glycogen in the liver, and as fatty acids in fat cells. Also, once the blood concentration of ketone bodies exceeds 1mg/dl, the excess is simply peed out unused, known as ketonuria (the ketone companies very slickly suggest urine tests for ketones to "prove you're in ketosis" - that's BS, you're just peeing it out). So, giving the body a continuous supply of exogenous ketones that it did not have to expend any energy to produce, means that the body never has to burn the glucose/glycogen or fat for energy – it simply awaits its next free ketone feeding and continues to store the other stuff for “harder times” when easy, no-cost energy isn’t readily available, and pees out the ketones it didn’t use. Meanwhile, while the circulating glucose is not used, since there’s a free supply of ketones at no metabolic cost, the body releases large amounts of insulin to clear the circulating carbs/glucose still being consumed but not burned, resulting in potential insulin resistance. This is why the best use for exogenous ketones is only with a severe carb restricted diet (literally less than 50gm/day), or prior to some tough endurance activity requiring extra energy.

To use the same campfire analogy from the video, ketones would represent drier lint; a quickly burned, readily available fuel source. If you keep throwing lots of drier lint on the fire, it never needs to burn deeper down into the logs (protein) or coal (fat), since drier lint (ketones) is being constantly thrown onto the fire for fuel. And if you keep adding kindling (carbs) to the fire, while also putting drier lint (ketones) on it, the fire will just about never get down to burning the logs (protein) and coal (fat) – at least, it would take a very, very long time.

That’s one of the reasons I get a little frustrated at supplement companies, and videos like that, that produce genuinely good information on something like legitimate nutritional ketosis, and then deceive people by saying their product accomplishes the same, when it doesn’t. If consumers aren’t told the truth, it can hurt them. A person following an ultra low-carb or a ketogenic diet, would probably be fine taking exogenous ketones and might benefit, but someone who takes them while eating “normal” (especially someone with excess adipose tissue) is placing themselves in danger of causing excess glycation, fatty liver, insulin resistance, and even type 2 diabetes. So it irks me when they pretend like exogenous is the same as endogenous to sell something. But it’s not just ketones – much of the supplement world uses deceptive advertising and misuses research, knowing that the average Joe isn’t going to read the long, boring, highly technical studies. I think if Pruvit would’ve left off the false equivocation of exogenous ketone consumption with actual nutritional ketosis, it would’ve been an excellent video on the benefits of achieving a state of ketosis. I think a more honest presentation of who the product benefits (people on low-carb/ketogenic diets, endurance athletes, and people with degenerative neurological disorders), verses people who *shouldn’t* take the product (people who eat normal, carb cycle, or who have excess adipose tissue), would go a long way in showing the company’s integrity and commitment to honest advertising. I just want companies who sell them to not misuse scientific research, conflating unrelated processes, and to look out for us consumers and be honest with who should and shouldn’t take a given product. I think one of the most important things Pruvit (and other ketone companies) should market at this point, is threefold: 1) Be clear that ketone products should *not* be taken unless on a very low-carb or ketogenic diet, 2) Be very up front about the negative metabolic consequences of taking exogenous ketones without simultaneous severe carb restriction, and 3) Make sure to stop conflating true nutritional ketosis with effects of exogenous ketone consumption.

https://www.amazon.com/CHARGED-Prov...dpSrc=srch&th=1
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 13:14
kdc01's Avatar
kdc01 kdc01 is offline
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Posts: 40
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 308/291/200 Male 71 inches
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Progress: 16%
Location: virginia
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KHRUSVA -

Thanks for the info.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 13:30
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Ken - this is a very thorough review of exogenous ketones in general and the Pruvit ketone product in particular. I agree with most of his points, however, there is a point he makes (highlighted in bold below) where I have doubts.
Quote:
I think one of the most important things Pruvit (and other ketone companies) should market at this point, is threefold: 1) Be clear that ketone products should *not* be taken unless on a very low-carb or ketogenic diet, 2) Be very up front about the negative metabolic consequences of taking exogenous ketones without simultaneous severe carb restriction, and 3) Make sure to stop conflating true nutritional ketosis with effects of exogenous ketone consumption.

In speaking with the Pruvit people at the same conference, I asked how an exogenous ketone product would benefit one who was already in ketosis due to a strict low carb diet. I received no plausible answer other than to point out I could cheat and get back into ketosis more quickly. At this time, I strongly believe that producing endogenous ketones through carb restriction is more beneficial and exogenous ketones should not be taken by those on a ketogenic diet, as they might risk their current state of using fat as primary fuel over glucose. If I can produce my ketones naturally, why would I want to change the metabolic pathway to include exogenous ketones and possibly (this is an assumption) shut down my natural fat burning in the process? I agree, lots more to learn before I start consuming what could very well be technologically advanced snake oil!
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 13:37
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,379
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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kdc01 - Welcome to the forum!!!
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 14:21
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 6,846
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Rob - About the only thing I can think of where this product might be beneficial is for a fat adapted athlete in an endurance event. I don't know at what rate the body can generate ketones from fat. On a super lean and fit athlete would ketone production keep up with the energy needs during competition? Perhaps this product could provide a boost. One might consider it cheating, though.

I had thought about how ready-to-burn ketone supplements might affect fat storage from food. I considered keytones like alcohol. They would have to burn first. I didn't consider the effect on insulin, though. It sounds like this supplement might be a very bad idea for someone who is insulin resistant. The fat guy might get a boost of energy while the ketone supplements last, but they would more than likely crash and burn when they use up the ketones and cannot access their own body fat due to high insulin levels. This supplement could be disastrous for a T2 diabetic not following a VLC diet. Perhaps that is where the reviewer was going with that point you highlighted.

Last edited by khrussva : Mon, Oct-30-17 at 14:27.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Oct-30-17, 18:43
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,379
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
Rob - About the only thing I can think of where this product might be beneficial is for a fat adapted athlete in an endurance event. I don't know at what rate the body can generate ketones from fat. On a super lean and fit athlete would ketone production keep up with the energy needs during competition? Perhaps this product could provide a boost. One might consider it cheating, though.

I had thought about how ready-to-burn ketone supplements might affect fat storage from food. I considered keytones like alcohol. They would have to burn first. I didn't consider the effect on insulin, though. It sounds like this supplement might be a very bad idea for someone who is insulin resistant. The fat guy might get a boost of energy while the ketone supplements last, but they would more than likely crash and burn when they use up the ketones and cannot access their own body fat due to high insulin levels. This supplement could be disastrous for a T2 diabetic not following a VLC diet. Perhaps that is where the reviewer was going with that point you highlighted.

On the first paragraph, Ken, I have read about Phinney and Volek's experiences with ultra-marathoners who run many hours. Those that are fat adapted don't seem to hit the wall and don't need to refuel (eat carbs) periodically like the glucose-fueled athletes. However, some of the fat-fueled athletes do take small amounts of carbs at certain points during the races. Many fat-fueled runners remark about how they never have to worry about hitting the wall. Exogenous ketones may help, but I haven't seen any detailed reports of athletes' experiences with these supplements. I'm not sure how they would supplement a body's own fat stores that are available to those who are fat adapted other than providing an alternate source of ketones. Ketone supplements seem to be hot with body builders. Your line of thinking here is a good one. Wouldn't the exogenous ketones be consumed instead or first or something else?

On the second paragraph, that's a very good point regarding insulin resistance regardless of the current metabolic state. I believe you and I have come to the same conclusion in that further testing is required before we really know what these ketone supplements do. I have a particular interest, as a week before the Winchester Health Revolution, my brother called and was raving about his new supplement, exogenous ketones. He has been low carb for many years and is now using Zenwise Keto-Lift BHB and recommended I give it a try. My response was that I'd prefer to do it naturally until I have actual RCTs that can confirm the influences of these supplements.

Also, price is an issue as these supplements are costly! I take a few dietary supplements that I can't always get through dietary choices like magnesium and Vitamin K2. But I can get ketones for free by going very low carb. I'm sure over the next few years we'll learn quite a bit about these, but right now, the marketing machine is in full swing. I was also interested to learn that Dr. Dom D'Agostino consults with the Pruvit board. I've found D'Agostino to be an expert about ketosis in general and very forthcoming.
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