Originally Posted by dane

It's been discussed in the past at www.bodyrecomposition.com you might want to do a search there and read the responses. They weren't generally favorable...if I recall correctly, they were ragging on Rob's interpretation of the science behind it all, or his questionable science.

Originally Posted by Chokeartst

Bodyrecomposition is Lyle McDonalds forum, he also has books out on carb-cycling diets which makes him a biased source.

Originally Posted by Lyle

Fagin's basic mistake, like so many others, is to still be fixated on this bullshit GH response.

B/c even if GH were anabolic (and it really isn't) it sure as shit isn't anabolic when insulin is low.

Hell, best way to jack up GH is to just starve yourself (see also: bullshit protein cycling).

B/c those starvation victims get freaky huge.

Lyle

Originally Posted by Lyle

if injectio of GH does zero, there is absolutely nothing that a 15' or whatever spike around training is going to do

****
1: Phys Ther. 1999 Jan;79(1):76-82.

Does growth hormone therapy in conjunction with resistance exercise increase
muscle force production and muscle mass in men and women aged 60 years or older?

Zachwieja JJ, Yarasheski KE.

Exercise and Nutrition Program, Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton
Rouge, La., USA.

Improved muscle protein mass and increments in maximum voluntary muscle force
have rarely been observed in men and women aged 60 years and older who were
treated with rhGH. Although rhGH administration has been reported to increase
lean body mass in older men and women, it is doubtful that this increase is
localized to skeletal muscle contractile proteins. When rhGH administration was
combined with 16 weeks of resistance exercises, increases in muscle mass, muscle
protein synthesis, and muscle force were not greater in the rhGH-treated group
than in a weight training group that received placebo injections. Side effects of
rhGH treatment in elderly people are prevalent, not trivial, and further limit
its usefulness as an effective anabolic agent for promoting muscle protein
accretion in men and women. In particular, the induction of insulin resistance
and carpal tunnel compression reduces the efficacy of rhGH replacement therapy in
elderly individuals. The evidence for a GH-induced increase in human skeletal
muscle protein and maximum voluntary muscle force is weak. The optimum dose and
GH-replacement paradigm (GHRH, GH-secretagogues) have not been identified.
Whether rhGH therapy improves muscle protein mass and force in individuals with
severe cachexia associated with major trauma, burns, surgery, or muscular
dystrophy is controversial and under investigation.

Publication Types:
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.
Review

PMID: 9920193 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2: Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 1994;22:285-312.

Growth hormone effects on metabolism, body composition, muscle mass, and
strength.

Yarasheski KE.

Metabolism Division, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis,
Missouri.

It is clear that the anthropometric ramifications, especially with respect to
muscle mass, of the metabolic actions of GH and IGF-I treatment in intact and
GH-deficient adults require further study. At present, it appears that daily GH
or IGF-I treatment modestly increases nitrogen retention in most normal adults,
probably by separate but permissive mechanisms, but only for a short period of
time (approximately 1 month). During prolonged GH administration, resistance to
the anabolic actions of GH seems to occur, and optimizing the anabolic effects of
GH or IGF-I treatment will require a better understanding of the interactions
among GH, GHBP, IGF-I production, IGFBPs, the GH dose regimen, and other
unidentified regulatory factors. On the basis of the similar increases in muscle
protein synthesis, muscle cross-sectional area, and muscle strength observed in
placebo and GH-treated exercising young adults, it is doubtful that the nitrogen
retention associated with daily GH treatment results in an increase in
contractile protein, improved muscle function, strength and athletic performance.
Even in catabolic or GH-deficient populations, GH treatment provides only modest
increments in nitrogen retention, muscle size, strength, and exercise capacity.
Further, the side effects of GH treatment (water retention, carpal tunnel
compression, insulin resistance) would be a detriment, rather than an aid, to
athletic performance. In addition, whether prolonged (> 6 months) GH treatment
alone or in combination with other agents used by athletes (e.g., anabolic
steroids, beta-agonists) is associated with other adverse side effects (e.g.,
cancer, diabetes) has not been evaluated. Therefore, health professionals should
continue to discourage the use of GH by exercise enthusiasts.

Publication Types:
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.
Review

PMID: 7925547 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: J Appl Physiol. 1993 Jun;74(6):3073-6.

Short-term growth hormone treatment does not increase muscle protein synthesis in
experienced weight lifters.

Yarasheski KE, Zachweija JJ, Angelopoulos TJ, Bier DM.

Metabolism Division, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis,
Missouri 63110.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether recombinant human growth
hormone (GH) administration enhances muscle protein anabolism in experienced
weight lifters. The fractional rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis and the
whole body rate of protein breakdown were determined during a constant
intravenous infusion of [13C]leucine in 7 young (23 +/- 2 yr; 86.2 +/- 4.6 kg)
healthy experienced male weight lifters before and at the end of 14 days of
subcutaneous GH administration (40 microgram.kg-1 x day-1). GH administration
increased fasting serum insulin-like growth factor-I (from 224 +/- 20 to 589 +/-
80 ng/ml, P = 0.002) but did not increase the fractional rate of muscle protein
synthesis (from 0.034 +/- 0.004 to 0.034 +/- 0.002%/h) or reduce the rate of
whole body protein breakdown (from 103 +/- 4 to 108 +/- 5 mumol.kg-1 x h-1).
These findings suggest that short-term GH treatment does not increase the rate of
muscle protein synthesis or reduce the rate of whole body protein breakdown,
metabolic alterations that would promote muscle protein anabolism in experienced
weight lifters attempting to further increase muscle mass.

Publication Types:
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.

PMID: 8366011 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Am J Physiol. 1992 Mar;262(3 Pt 1):E261-7.

Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men.

Yarasheski KE, Campbell JA, Smith K, Rennie MJ, Holloszy JO, Bier DM.

Department of Medicine, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis,
Missouri 63110.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether growth hormone (GH)
administration enhances the muscle anabolism associated with heavy-resistance
exercise. Sixteen men (21-34 yr) were assigned randomly to a resistance training
plus GH group (n = 7) or to a resistance training plus placebo group (n = 9). For
12 wk, both groups trained all major muscle groups in an identical fashion while
receiving 40 micrograms recombinant human GH.kg-1.day-1 or placebo. Fat-free mass
(FFM) and total body water increased (P less than 0.05) in both groups but more
(P less than 0.01) in the GH recipients. Whole body protein synthesis rate
increased more (P less than 0.03), and whole body protein balance was greater (P
= 0.01) in the GH-treated group, but quadriceps muscle protein synthesis rate,
torso and limb circumferences, and muscle strength did not increase more in the
GH-treated group. In the young men studied, resistance exercise with or without
GH resulted in similar increments in muscle size, strength, and muscle protein
synthesis, indicating that 1) the larger increase in FFM with GH treatment was
probably due to an increase in lean tissue other than skeletal muscle and 2)
resistance training supplemented with GH did not further enhance muscle anabolism
and function.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.

PMID: 1550219 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Endocrinol Invest. 1999;22(5 Suppl):106-9.Links
Growth hormone and body composition in athletes.
Frisch H.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Vienna, Austria. herwig.frisch~akh-wien.ac.at

The anabolic properties of growth hormone (GH) have been investigated extensively. The effects of GH on normal, hypertrophied and atrophied muscles have been studied previously in animal experiments that demonstrated an increase in muscle weight and size, but no comparable increase in performance or tension. In adults with GH deficiency, the changes in body composition can be corrected by GH treatment; lean body mass and strength increase within a few months. In children with GH deficiency, Turner's syndrome or intrauterine growth retardation, an increase in muscle tissue is seen after treatment with GH. In acromegalics with long-standing GH hypersecretion, the muscle volume is increased, but muscle strength and performance are not improved. These observations gave rise to the interest shown by healthy subjects and athletes in using GH to increase their muscle mass and strength. The improvements in muscle strength obtained by resistance exercise training in healthy older men or young men were not enhanced by additional administration of GH. The larger increases in fat-free mass observed in the GH-treated groups were obviously not due to accretion of contractile protein, but rather to fluid retention or accumulation of connective tissue. In experienced weightlifters, the incorporation of amino acids into skeletal muscle protein was not increased and the rate of whole body protein breakdown was not decreased by short-term administration of GH. The results of a study in power athletes confirm the results of these investigations. The study used GH treatment in power athletes compared with a placebo-control group, and the results indicated no increase in maximal strength during concentric contraction of the biceps and quadriceps muscles, although levels of insulin-like growth factor-I were doubled. In highly trained power athletes with low fat mass and high lean body mass, no additional effect of GH treatment on strength is to be expected.

Originally Posted by Nelson

Thanks! That's the kind feedback I was looking for. I'll check out the link.

I am reading everything I can about promoting fat loss while retaining muscle, but most, if not all, of the information seems to apply to young, male athletes. I can't help but wonder how applicable it is to a menopausal non-athlete.

Originally Posted by dane

weight training and sufficient protein should work for everyone, regardless of age, hormonal status, etc..

Originally Posted by dane

If you're not doing any resistance training, then starting as a newbie will give you the added advantage of being able to gain muscle/lose fat simultaneously.

Originally Posted by Chokeartst

~Dane
Quoting studies doesn't impress me the slightest, results do. The fact is that the diet outlined in NHE is great for building muscle while losing fat, many people have used diets like the NHE to achieve great physiques. Vince Gironda used to recommend a similar type of diet to his clients, and built an impressive physique on it himself.

I really don't care if Lyle McDonald, or you, think that's stupid.

As for spending money on the book, one could easily find the guidelines for the actual diet online.

Originally Posted by Dane

Any diet that's reasonably well-designed can work if you stick to it. Just maybe not for the reasons the author claims,

Originally Posted by Nelson

I used to believe that, too. But now that I and my friends are entering menopause, it is no longer so clear. I think people just assume that the "old broads" are kidding themselves (or worse, lying) about their diet and exercise. Not so! Things work differently. There are hormonal mysteries that young bodybuilders simply can't understand.



Unfortunately, I'm not really a "newbie" at resistance. I have been following a regime of resistance training (bands not free weights), pilates, and cycling for years. Suddenly, just since full menopause, nothing seems to burn fat anymore. I've developed a buddha belly, almost overnight, and can't get it to budge. I was hoping that through targeted nutrition I could reboot the old growth hormone a little while continuing to suppress insulin with carb restriction.

Originally Posted by dane

Ahhh! I getcha. Actually, what you're describing is something I read about frequently on 2 of my fitness boards. At www.beyondlowcarb.net (BLC) you'll find a lot of great information covering exactly what you're talking about, and women dealing with same. On Lyle's board, there has also been recent discussion about it. Hormones defintiely have an impact, and low carbing (without going too low, say <50gC) seems to help.

The point of the studies was to show that if results with injectable HGH are minimal, imagine what impact trying to maximize physiological pulses would have. Not very much.

Supplementing with DHEA, progesterone, etc., though, is something that might have merit. There are a few threads at BLC where some women are trying that.

Nelson, how old are you?

Originally Posted by Nelson

By the way, I see what you (and Macdonald) are saying about HGH having no dramatic impact on muscle building, but what about fat burning? Could smallish increases in HGH make it easier to mobilize fat stores, even if there is little or no increase in muscle bulk?