I know some family members and others who are longtime, highly committed vegans/vegetarians. They think it's much more humane for animals and say they would never touch meat -- and I believe them.

Aside from soy and some other questionable things that vegans/vegetarians often have as staples in their diet, I just know that it's not worth trying to dissuade them on any basis, whether it's that LC is healthier, meat is healthy/nourishing, etc. I know there are popular blogs of vegetarians who realized it was ruining their health, but I don't see any of the vegetarians I know converting anytime soon.

One of my relatives is so against meat it's scary, she has some health problems, but she won't hear a word against her diet -- partly because it's "immoral" to eat meat and hurt the poor animals.

I'm posting in this section because it still seems like such a contentious issue. I do respect vegetarianism if it works for someone, and we all know that diet/metabolism can be mysterious and a lot of people can handle things that would kill other people. So even though I think it's suspect, I'm not sure they're necessarily on the wrong path.

And yet they ARE sure that eating meat is the worst thing a person can do spiritually, morally, health-wise, etc.

I think it was cartoonist Nicole Hollander who had a series of strips with the tag line "I'd rather argue with a rhino" -- that's how I feel when trying to talk to a vegetarian about other options.

It could be argued, I guess, that turning vegetarian to help animals is akin to remaining child-free to prevent child abuse. Wouldn't it be more effective way of helping animals to support and promote traditional farming practices and cruelty-free practices. The farmers trying to make a living from these traditional-style farms need help and support. Turning away from animals does not help them.

I have no problem with people who want to be vegetarian but still eat animal products like eggs and cheese to meet their nutritional requirements. You can't combat the moral argument I'm afraid. All you can do is live a good, healthy and happy life and be an example of a compassionate meat eater.

The only vegan/vegetarian mind I've changed is my own. But I went that route (~1976-1994) for health and financial reasons primarily ... only to find that it made my health worse - bloated, fat, inflamed and allergic to everything. So I became a born-again carnivore.

The number of animals killed by growing and harvesting the crops eaten by vegetarians is huge. The animals killed are not eaten and are either left in the field or ground up with the crop.

It is likely that fewer animals are killed to feed carnivores than are killed to feed vegetarians.

I see the really militant vegan as being completely logical, from their point of view. Humans are the cause of all Earth's suffering. So eat a diet that causes poor health and infertility, humans will be wiped out, problem solved. Unicorns will burst forth through rainbows, birds will sing in harmony with the whales and all is well.

OMG! I love that!

It all clicked for me when I was in a vegetarian deli and one of the items on their menu was a tofu & soy cheese concoction they called Righteous Reuben. While many people do embrace this choice out of humanitarian concerns, (and I was once one of them,) there's also a strong element of holier-than-thou which blocks all rational thinking.

I ran into two main issues. Practically speaking, I felt awful. Now I know I was having a hard enough time getting enough protein or fat from that kind of diet, and this was with eggs and cheese in small portions. Also, it tends to be very high carb, and this was wreaking havoc with my metabolism. Vegan would have been even worse.

Spiritually speaking, I saw a ton of contradictions that no one was addressing. For instance, books were ALL made with glue from animal bones... was I supposed to stop reading? Under their rules, I shouldn't even visit the library! And when I started thinking through all the assumptions, the plan that went, "Everyone will stop eating meat and we'll all be happy together," made no sense at all.

And I was right back at holier-than-thou. We low-carbers & paleos push harder for humane farming than vegetarians do. Isn't that a humanitarian paradox?

I wouldn't be happy if someone (anyone! vegetarian or not) tried to dissuade me from the way I eat. So I don't say anything about how others eat. If it were someone very close to me I might say something in a joking manner, and accept the same from them, but if someone doesn't want to hold that sort of conversation I wouldn't ever push it. Would it be less rude coming from a low carber than if it were coming from a vegan? I don't think so.

I (sort of) convinced a former boss to change her diet, although I only changed it by setting an example, not with words, exactly. She didn't exactly start eating meat or anything (I wouldn't expect a Hindu to do so!) but she did start eating more egg yolks and ghee. She admitted she was cold all the time and wanted to try, within the confines of her dietary requirements, to emulate what I did (I was never cold around her in the same circumstances).

Vegetarianism is like a religion. No way to change it, and I don't even try.

I've always liked how Tony Bourdain calls veganism "the Hezbollah splinter faction of vegetarianism."

I know of one person for whom I would give my left ovary to successfully convince him to drop vegetarianism as it is directly contributing to his massive health problems. Hell, I'd throw in the right one and the uterus, too, if it'd help. Alas, it will never happen because of anything I ever say.

I can only hope he connects the dots on his own someday before it's too late.

The closest I come to evangelizing is posting the occasional link about LC/Paleo eating on my facebook. Then someone I barely know, a vegan, posts something about Campbell's "China Study". I could always post about Denise Minger's evisceration of Campbell's work, but I understand this isn't an issue that can be addressed with logic. It is as much about faith and magical thinking as many other things humans believe it.

So I let it go and preserve the peace.

Since I most definitely WILL be reaching my goal in the next few months (only 10 lbs to go!!), I'm waiting to see who, if anyone, asks me how I got there. That will be fun....

Nancy, I would reconsider sitting on Minger's rebuttal. It would be a valuable exercise in how to engage in critical thinking when reading studies. I would feel the same no matter what flawed study was under the scope. Maybe you could introduce your post with a comment that some vegetarians do well, but that much harm is done under the name of the China Study. If you barely know the person, I wouldn't sweat their reaction, as long as you know you were fair about the tone of your post.