Good self-esteem must always come from the inside not from what anyone else thinks and self-esteem doesn't always have anything whatsoever to do with looks, weight or anything visible. For instance, I have a very good-looking son who is quite accomplished. He is an artist for a publisher in Los Angeles and has done production artwork for TV specials. One of his best friends is a famous actor. However, my son has never had any self-esteem, never thought he was good enough. My husband also suffers from low self esteem. I tried my best help my son when he was growing up by encouraging him and giving him many opportunities to foster his talents, but he admited the other day on the phone that he still suffers from low self-esteem even though he is almost 38 years old. My other children do not suffer from low self-esteem like he does. I think the difference is that my son who suffers from low self esteem has always compared himself to others while my other children do not. So I am all for people with low self esteem trying to change their mind-set and accepting themselves, but as I said it is not always just about accepting their outward appearance but not comparing themselves with everyone else. My post was mainly about the health issues that can be caused by overweight. I think a lot of younger people do not realize how their weight can affect their health, esp. as they grow older.

For better or worse, my self-esteem is FAR higher now that I am at a normal weight than it was when I was fat. Did that stop me from living life? Heck no. In fact, I went back to school, first taking science prerequisites, and then entering pharmacy school. (my first degree is in music) It was about a 10-year journey, and for most of it, I was fat. My social life has always been pretty full. But how I feel inside has changed, and yes, it is because I look and feel better now. I don't have that gnawing concern that I'll break a chair, not fit into a booth, squish the poor person next to me on a plane, not fit into the small desks at school (yes, that was the case before, and it was mortifying), not be able to fit on rides with my kids at the amusement park, and so on. I hated having to worry about that stuff, and I no longer do, so that he helped my self-esteem. Yes, this sounds shallow, but it's reality, at least for me. I was always reasonably intelligent and I accomplished what I set out to do, but INSIDE I was just sad and insecure. I'm a decent enough actress that the rest of the world didn't see it, but it was there.

And now it's not.

I agree with everyone that being overweight should not keep people from doing what they want to do. For instance, being overweight should not keep me from flying out to California to see my grandchild next week whom I've never seen, but losing weight will hopefully mean that I won't have to worry about the armsrests cutting into me making me miserable the entire flight, which is what happened the last time I flew. I wasn't embarrasses about asking for a seatbelt extender and I think they should always be made available and the attendent should be helpful in that regard, but there is not much they can do about the seats in the airplane being too small or rather ME being too big for them.

Being overweight probably kept me from doing as much traveling as I would have otherwise...I was always worried that I wouldn't fit into the plane seats, and at 290 pounds, it was probably a legitimate concern. Now I love to travel (flight restrictions notwithstanding) and I know that unless a seat is made for a child, it will fit my fairly normal-sized butt. Again, I didn't talk about my feelings of insecurity before, and I did fly to Paris when I was still obese, but I was so worried about that flight, and now I wouldn't be. It's just easier when you aren't overweight.

Actually, that's a bit unfair.

I read through a few pages of this discussion and frankly had to stop because the comments struck me as so disproportionately negative toward Newbirth. Although I might not agree that the article was written by somebody attempting to "bask" in their obesity, or that by virtue of said article being on the front page of something the author must therefore be "basking" (which I do not find logical), I also don't think that Newbirth let fly the myriad judgments which subsequently were attributed to her. These insults ranged from subtle to egregious, including: 1) Newbirth being compared to Jesus (evidently for her self-righteousness) to 2) others feeling sad because she was judging people "for no reason" to 3) Newbirth somehow being uncompassionate due to her weight loss sucess to 4) Newbirth implying people are only fat because they aren't trying hard enough to 5) someone equating Newbirth's post to something a very cruel old man had said to her earlier that day.

All of this is complete bollocks; Newbirth didn't do any of those things. She brought up what is actually a very controversial subject and then gave her opinion on it. Sure she may have been brash, but she wasn't any of the other things she was consequently accused of. She did attempt to debate it; it was others who took the whole matter to a personal level.

I also think Newbirth got the reaction she did because we all have our own personal (/hellish) histories with weight, and we know intimately how it feels to be discriminated against because of it. That's why so many of us come to these boards. I wonder though, if our predisposition to sensitivity as it concerns this subject makes us more likely to judge others generally when they are critical of our former lifestyles, so much so that we jump on another person and label them this or that when the only thing they've done wrong is give their opinion, which happens to hit a soft spot in our hearts.

I certainly feel compassion for that impulse---I often share it too. I know how difficult it is to struggle with weight and I know how despairing I have felt throughout my life, particularly when facing the parade of weight loss failures I have endured. But Newbirth didn't do something so terrible here by voicing her opinion---she didn't call fat people failures or trot out the words "lazy" and "worthless" or anything of the sort. I honestly just don't understand the response she received.

This is just my opinion, of course: take it or leave it, scream at me or not. I like you all an awful lot and respect you enough to be honest with you.

Peace.

I'm pretty sure the Mods already asked us to get back on topic here ChrysAnne...but...

Um, I wouldn't exactly call Newbirth's activity on this thread as "willing to debate." Instead she blew a gasket when people didn't automatically agree with her unexamined assumptions around this topic and then took it personally when people spelled how some of her beliefs might not be accurate for other people. I found many of her comments offensive including stating that fat acceptance being about "not wanting to do the hard work to lose weight"...you know, in other words...lazy.

I could go on to show where the comments became self-righteous, judgemental, uncompassionate, etc but I'm sure you get the point. I'm sure Newbirth is a great person, I just think that we all have blindspots and this is one for her. She got called on it and didn't take it well.

I didn't see the mods recommendation there---I found it hard to read after four pages, frankly. Having said that, I will note that I did not see Newbirth blow a gasket anywhere, nor did I see her take it personally when people didn't agree with her. I will admit that she took it personally when people continually attributed false statements to her, but hey, I would have done the same. And finally, I will drop it, as has already been advised.

As for the subject specifically, I think there are actually four issues contained within it. First: a person's need to accept and love themselves at whatever stage of life they happen to find themselves, second: a person's right to the pursuit of their own happiness, even if this includes taking up or maintaining an "unhealthy" lifestyle, third: determining what is or is not a healthy lifestyle, and fourth: determining whether someone publicly claiming their lifestyle as healthy should be challenged by others who have differing opinions based on whatever evidence they may have at hand.

And those are very interesting issues. The first is obvious (of course we should all strive to love ourselves), the second is as well (to me, we should all be able to do as we want, as long as we do not hurt or infringe upon others), the third is much more subjective (I happen to have great issues with the idea that someone being 100 pounds overweight could ever be considered "healthy"), and the fourth is subjective as well: I think somebody making any sort of public statement should be ready for challenge and debate, especially when conventional medical thought runs completely counter to their position. To debate the issue is not tantamount to judging the person making the original assertion, however. It's often hard to separate the feelings from the facts, though, given the emotionally charged premise.

And again, I am deeply sympathetic to this.

Oh CrysAnne, you are a brave brave girl. This has been such a weird thread with a posting of an article that one could agree with, or disagree with. "Fat acceptance" is good, or "fat acceptance" is bad. But instead of debating what we think fat acceptance means, a lot of people have been getting in to personalities.

I was interested in the article. I am glad it was posted. I was too cowardly to enter this fray, but if you can do it, then I guess I can too!

Here's my opinion: I'd hate for anyone to be too nervous to post and comment on the next article or op ed piece that comes along. And I know it sounds wishy washy, but I am on both sides of the fence on this issue. Both sides have excellent points. And I don't really think it is vital that I come down on one side or the other!

You know, I think I'm actually on both sides of the fence too.

I think fat acceptance can be a really positive thing, generally, just as any type of self acceptance is positive. I also think, however, that a lot of people wave the fat acceptance banner and attempt to convince themselves they are happy (or can be), when in fact they are not. True acceptance is always good; hiding under the guise of acceptance never is.

The psychology of weight is so complicated; I usually choose to err on the side of hyper-sensitivity when this is concerned. I think it's so important to have a sense of peace within ourselves. I think when we are happy with ourselves---truly---we in turn treat ourselves better, with health and vitality the natural results. But it is not healthy, I don't think, to convince yourself you are okay when you are in fact not, and I fear for those among the "fat accepters" who are really just finding a way to not deal with their inner demons.

I don't know.

It's a terribly sensitive subject, and I think that's why Newbirth got the reaction she did.

Most of that happened between pages 5 and 10, in case you wanted to read back but not the entire thread.



I really like the way you've reframed this so that people can actually discuss and debate the content. I admit that I had a strong reaction to the way Newbirth phrased things because she stated her opinion as fact in a way that was received by me as *highly* judgemental. Thanks for your input here.

L

1. I think this is the hardest thing that anyone can do in our society. I applaud anyone who takes this challenge on.
2. To each their own as long as they are not hurting or trying to control others.
3. This is tricky! Lots of trial and error to see what works for each individual.
4. Challenging is good, however condemning immediately and not trying to understand the other POV causes a lot of frustration for everyone involved.

Thank you for saying that. And again, I understand why this is such a sensitive subject.

For the record, I think the most interesting aspects of this particular debate deal with what is actually medically healthy as well as the somewhat moral idea that a person can do whatever he or she pleases, healthy or not, as long as they don't hurt others. I think most people have a hard time with those.

For example, a lot of people think they can or should say something to someone else they perceive as being unhealthy, which of course, as we all know and in terms of weight, just makes the person with the "problem" struggle even more. Personally, I think people have to find their own way and people like that cruel man at the bank (cited previously by someone I can't remember) should just shut their everlovin' pie holes. It's that kind of behavior that spawns movements like "fat acceptance", and is perhaps precisely why these movements are needed the most.

Hard, hard questions.

Fair enough on all points. I think I probably struggle most with "unhealthy" things like smoking, which I find useless and harmful to everyone, but which I need to constantly check myself on because people should be entitled (I think I essentially believe) to do what they will. Because of my proximity to the whole weight issue, I'm probably more protective of people struggling/dealing with their body issues than the next person---save for the others on this forum. We are all familiar with that struggle.