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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 02:01
PlayDoh's Avatar
PlayDoh PlayDoh is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,479
 
Plan: modified atkins
Stats: 198.5/183/130 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 23%
Location: northern california
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boy howdy! it's diehard over there!

thank you for the lik on the EPO
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 13:21
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayDoh
boy howdy! it's diehard over there!



No kidding! I wouldn't wade into that fray without a kevlar vest and a shark cage! I do find it interesing, though, how the argument changed after the studies were posted to "Well, yeah...but those eating all that fat had more energy available from the calories so of course they outperformed the high carb group who ate a few less calories...".
What happened to their assertion that those calories absolutely, positively HAD to come from carbohydrates for the purposes of endurance?
If available energy is all that matters, why does it have to come in the form of carbohydrates? It would seem to me that since a gram of fat has more than double the caloric content of a gram of carbohydrate that it would be considered the more efficient energy source.
BTW...they seem to be forgetting that available stored glucose is used up in the first 20-30 minutes of exercising at a moderate to high intensity and the body then switches to fat burning anyway.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 16:52
eepobee's Avatar
eepobee eepobee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 365
 
Plan: lc
Stats: 00/00/00 Male 00
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: NJ
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some more ammo:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...ubmedid=7000826
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/1/197

excerpts from the first article cited:
The energy expenditure data (expressed as oxygen consumption) and exercise times across this 8-week inpatient study are shown in Table 1. That these subjects'peak aerobic power did not decline despite 6 weeks of a carbohydrate-free, severely hypocaloric diet implies that the protein and mineral contents of the diet were adequate to preserve functional tissue. As can be noted, endurance time to exhaustion was reduced after one week of the ketogenic diet, but it was significantly increased over the baseline value by the 6-week time point. However the interpretation of this endurance test is confounded by the fact that the oxygen cost (ie, energy cost) of the treadmill exercise had significantly decreased following the weight loss, and this occurred despite the subjects being made to carry a backpack loaded to bring them back to their initial exercise test weight.

This question of improved efficiency notwithstanding, it is clear that our subjects experienced a delayed adaptation to the ketogenic diet, having reduced endurance performance after one week followed by a recovery to or above baseline in the period between one and six weeks. Given the reduced energy cost of the exercise despite the backpack, the extent of this adaptation cannot be determined from this study. To explain this improved exercise efficiency, we can speculate that humans are more efficient carrying weight in a modern backpack than under their skin as excess body fat. It is also possible that these untrained subjects became more comfortable with prolonged treadmill walking by their third test, and therefore improving their overall efficiency.

The results of physical performance testing are presented in Table 2. What is remarkable about these data is the lack of change in aerobic performance parameters across the 4-week adaptation period of the EKD. The endurance exercise test on the cycle ergometer was performed at 65% of VO2max, which translates in these highly trained athletes into a rate of energy expenditure of 960 kcal/hr. At this high level of energy expenditure, it is notable that the second test was performed at a mean respiratory quotient of 0.72, indicating that virtually all of the substrate for this high energy output was coming from fat. This is consistent with measures before and after exercise of muscle glycogen and blood glucose oxidation (data not shown), which revealed marked reductions in the use of these carbohydrate-derived substrates after adaptation to the EKD.

Examining the results of these two ketogenic diet performance studies together indicates that both groups experienced a lag in performance across the first week or two of carbohydrate restriction, after which both peak aerobic power and sub-maximal (60–70% of VO2max) endurance performance were fully restored. In both studies, one with untrained subjects and the other with highly trained athletes who maintained their training throughout the study, there was no loss of VO2max despite the virtual absence of dietary carbohydrate for 4–6 weeks. This whole-body measure of oxidative metabolism could not be maintained unless there was excellent preservation of the full complement of functional tissues including skeletal muscle (and mitochondrial) mass, circulating red cell mass, and cardiopulmonary functions.

The possibility raised by the first study of improved endurance time after keto-adaptation was not substantiated by the second study employing highly trained athletes without the complicating variable of major weight loss. It is thus likely that the increased endurance time in the Vermont study was due to improved efficiency (ie, less hobbling from a backpack than from an equal weight of internal body fat) and/or improved acclimation to the endurance test procedure. Such acclimation would not be expected in the second study, as the highly trained bicycle racers were well conditioned to the stationary ergometer at the start of the study. It is also worth noting that the bicycle racers remained weight stable (excepting the half kilogram of reduced muscle glycogen) across the 4 weeks of the EKD, which was equi-caloric with the baseline diet. Although 4 weeks is a relatively short period to assess small differences in energy efficiency between diets, this observation implies that there was no great reduction in the efficiency of energy metabolism after keto-adaptation.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 17:04
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Good links, but somehow reading over the replies at the other forum, I get the feeling that we're dealing with people who are using concrete thinking. You know...the kind that's thoroughly mixed and permanently set?

mcavan, I find myself wondering why it's so important to you to convince all your bike forum buddies that low carbing is the way to go? Sometimes what a person eats is based more on faith than science, almost a religion, really, and for those folks you stand about as much chance of changing their minds with studies and scientific proof as you do of converting a Catholic to Islam (or vice-versa). Sometimes is pays to know when the battle just ain't worth fighting (or, as my DH is fond of saying, 'the juice just ain't worth the squeeze') and just leave them to believe what they will. I did find myself chuckling a bit at one poster's response who more or less said they'd never ever go low carb and prefer to eat lots of veggies, some fruits and whole grains and proteins. I found myself thinking...'dude...you ARE low carbing, just at maintainence levels, and don't even realize it!'
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 17:23
LiveWell's Avatar
LiveWell LiveWell is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,102
 
Plan: LC - 50C or less
Stats: 455/246/200 Female 5ft 9in
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
I did find myself chuckling a bit at one poster's response who more or less said they'd never ever go low carb and prefer to eat lots of veggies, some fruits and whole grains and proteins. I found myself thinking...'dude...you ARE low carbing, just at maintainence levels, and don't even realize it!'

I found that funny too. I really dont understand how people view this diet. OMG YOU HAVE TO GO TWO WEEKS WITHOUT FRUIT??? .. meanwhile they havent eaten a peice of fruit in over 6 months...but yet thats HORRIBLE because we CANT .. for two weeks. Things like that irritate me.

I relize that we are trying to get healthy..but we ARE also on a diet. I am not one to say..ohhh no im not on a diet - uh.. yea I am. I will not eat like this for the rest of my life...I plan on eating better :P Maintenance is WWWAAAAAYYYYYY better than any other stage obviously. Thats when your not acctually dieting anymore. So if some others cant understand that there are phases in most diets then they are insane.

I think this is the healthiest diet out there...for the better half of the population. I do understand that its not 100% for each person. Although I think our maintenance IS healthy for 100% of the people. I cant believe that its healthy to eat the way america is eating - whether you weigh in at 500lbs or 98lbs.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 17:32
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
I found that funny too. I really dont understand how people view this diet. OMG YOU HAVE TO GO TWO WEEKS WITHOUT FRUIT??? .. meanwhile they havent eaten a peice of fruit in over 6 months...but yet thats HORRIBLE because we CANT .. for two weeks. Things like that irritate me.


I know what you mean. They're also the ones who groan about the 'lack of variety' on low carb, when more than two thirds of their current diet is based on one or two grains (usually wheat and corn) and they have eaten the same breakfast cereal every day for the past 10 years. Veggies? Yeah...they don't eat any of those 'cuz they don't like them and the only fruits they'll touch are apples and bananas.
BTW...nobody has to go any amount of time without fruit on Atkins. Several varieties of fruit are permitted even on induction; they're known as tomatoes, cucumbers, avocados, olives and peppers.
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Jan-15-06, 17:43
LiveWell's Avatar
LiveWell LiveWell is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,102
 
Plan: LC - 50C or less
Stats: 455/246/200 Female 5ft 9in
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
BTW...nobody has to go any amount of time without fruit on Atkins. Several varieties of fruit are permitted even on induction; they're known as tomatoes, cucumbers, avocados, olives and peppers.



Ahhhh - touchè
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Jan-19-06, 02:38
rockerball's Avatar
rockerball rockerball is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 42
 
Plan: protein powerhouse!
Stats: 326/310/170 Female 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 10%
Location: Jersey
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That really sucks. I really hate it when people berate me for how I choose to eat. I'm terrible at debating, even though I have it all in my head. Honestly, except for those closest to me, I 've been keep it to myself.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Jan-19-06, 10:15
shopgirl28's Avatar
shopgirl28 shopgirl28 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,312
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 183/000/130 Female 5'6
BF:
Progress: 345%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcavana
Please visit these links....
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=166201
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=166083

now, the reason I want you to look at it now is that I need some serious backup.... they are acting as though low carb dieting is evil! I know there are plenty of people on this forum that know what they are talking about! please help!!!


I registered and I just made a comment on the board, I ride a bike everyday to and from school and I do the exercise bike an hour a day, but I am not a cyclist. I just hope they won't criticize me too much, I should have added in my daily exercise so they don't think I"m just someone doing a diet without the need for sufficient fuel for physical endurance
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Jan-19-06, 20:00
nedgoudy nedgoudy is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 517
 
Plan: Whey Protein & Skim Milk
Stats: 240/150/160 Male 66 inches
BF:No Thanks!
Progress: 113%
Location: Los Angeles County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcavana
Please visit these links....
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=166201
This is a forum that I regularly use to talk about bikes.... if you have any interest in bikes, it is an awesome forum...


MCAVANA,

I am on the bike forum too, and am a lowcarber.
SEE my followup to your post as I join the fray at:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthrea...746#post2064746
NED'S POST IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE as
of 1-19-06

I told em good!
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Jan-20-06, 09:41
spiritof72's Avatar
spiritof72 spiritof72 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 362
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 230/214/140 Female 5' 8"
BF:Heh. You're funny.
Progress: 18%
Location: Dallas, TX
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Although debate and presenting your opinion and experience is valuable and can be fun, it's easy to get very tired of explaining low carb to those who have swallowed the media hype about how evil it is. I fought it out with everyone I worked with when I started last year. They very adamantly told me how I was killing myself with an imminent heart attack ... until they saw the pounds dropping off right and left. Then the one who was the most adamant about how bad it was, suddenly decided to hop on the bandwagon and lost two dress sizes.

I still speak up and tell people that I'm on Atkins, that I've lost a fairly significant amount of weight, and various other 2-minute truths about Atkins that they probably don't know. But I'm long done having the involved arguments with those who are confused and proud of it.
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