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  #61   ^
Old Mon, Nov-16-09, 23:20
gadge's Avatar
gadge gadge is offline
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Posts: 504
 
Plan: HCG
Stats: 28/22/16 Female 72 inches
BF:yes
Progress: 50%
Location: LA Metro
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Okay, I made my standard leafy green veggie soup with my completely bland but nicely gelatinous bone stock yesterday (I froze some of a previous batch for my vegetarian).

It is 12 kinds of awesome. I don't care that it doesn't taste like beef, it is quite filling and has GREAT body. Its a lot of work, but wow and yay!
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  #62   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-09, 05:42
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
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Hi Capmikee,

Back in the day when I thought that weight loss meant low-cal food, I bought a load of books about soup, believing the adage that "soup is a dieter's best friend". And soup is all about stock, so I have read a lot of stock recipes, one of which is by Paul Bocuse, a renowned French chef from Lyons.

And for beef stock, you are generally advised to do the following:

- use some meaty bones and some marrow bones;
- brown the meaty bones before putting them in cold water and cooking them forever;
- you most definitely, after the stock has come to the boil, let the stock simmer with the lid off, because stock-making is all about reducing the liquid to get a more concentrated flavour;
- standard stock vegetables are celery sticks, carrots and onions, along with thyme; and not much more than that - I cannot recall seeing recipes involving spices, rather than herbs (such as allspice, or coriander), although I must confess that I was not planning to make anything oriental, perhaps these are normal in oriental beef stocks;
- one recipe I have advises not using black peppercorns because they make the stock cloudy;
- a couple of recipes I have recommend that you skim off the scum that forms at the top of the water to avoid cloudy stock.
- the only place I have seen this recommendation about putting the bones in vinegar first is in the Sally Fallon cookbook, and on the Whole Earth blog (and I bet he got the idea from her) - however, I did finally try it - using ACV - and the best thing about doing it was that the stock didn't smell so much whilst cooking!!!

Oh, and by the way, when I first bought my bones at the butcher's to make stock, I also asked them how they would recommend doing it, and they also said to fry the bones at high heat first before putting them in water.

So it really is a must to fry them or roast them in the oven first.

Good luck, Capmikee, and keep us posted on your progress!!!

amanda
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  #63   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-09, 07:47
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/146/150 Female 5'7"
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Progress: 119%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
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I finally made decent beef stock the other day using some of the suggestions in this thread. Previously, I've tried it by throwing marrow bones in the crockpot. That works for chicken bones and broth, but not beef. It was watery and blah.

I bought a 3-lb rack of beef back ribs, cut most of the meat off to cook separately, coated the (rather meaty) bones with about 2 Tbsp of tomato paste, and roasted them for an hour at 400F. When they were about done, I sauteed about 1/4 of a a chopped onion in the stock pot in about 1/4 cup of beef tallow that I had left over from the last time I cooked beef. I put the bones and juices into the stock pot, and added water well above the level of the bones in the pot. I brought it just to a simmer, then turned the heat back down so that it would simmer very gently.

Four hours later, I had to cook myself a steak that I foolishly had pulled out of the freezer, and I also found some mushrooms on sale for a buck that day. I sauteed the mushrooms in butter, dumped half of the mushrooms and juice into the stock pot, cooked the steak, deglazed the pan, and put that into the stockpot. I could have done the mushrooms earlier with the onion, but I wanted a few with my steak.

About four hours after that, it had cooked down about half-way, so I cooled it, strained it and put it in the fridge overnight. A stainless steel coffee filter is my favorite gadget for making stock and rendering fats, btw.

There was almost a cup of fat on top, so I rendered it down gently on the stove (like you would to make clarified butter). The rest of the stock is fabulous, although it could have cooked down more. It's a little watery. I'll know for next time.

The stock is fabulous, and so is the tallow! Beef tallow usually has a waxy, weird taste to me, and this stuff is almost as flavourful as the stock. Nice orangey colour from the tomato and beef.

Umami FTW!

Last edited by Kristine : Tue, Nov-17-09 at 07:52.
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  #64   ^
Old Mon, Nov-30-09, 20:31
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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I made another attempt this weekend.

Our oven is out of order so I tried browning the meat in a cast iron pan on our propane grill. It worked pretty well.

I browned a couple of oxtails, a shank and two marrow bones in the pan. I also had some trimmings from a bison heart I'd saved earlier, which I browned directly on the grill.

I ate the marrow at dinner as a spread on my grass-fed hamburgers, which are usually a bit lean. Not thrilled with it, but I'll figure out what it's good for eventually.

Everything went in the crock pot with NO other vegetables or seasonings. I'm looking at this carnivore thing more seriously and I'm questioning whether stock really needs anything but meat.

I put the crock pot on "high," but it was so full and so cold in the kitchen that it never got above a low simmer. I skimmed early and often, but there was never anything I could really call "scum," just a few bubbles and clumps of floaty stuff.

By late night, it was smelling seriously good. I was excited that I'd finally gotten it right.

Unfortunately, by mid-morning the stock had gone back to its usual nasty bitter smell and Wifey was complaining. Makes me think that awriter and Julia Child were right: maybe 4-5 hours is enough, and more than that is too much.

The meat from the tails and the marrow in the shank still tasted great, though. And the stock was at least drinkable.
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  #65   ^
Old Tue, Dec-01-09, 02:06
amandawald amandawald is offline
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Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
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Sorry to hear that your latest attempt at making beef stock didn't turn out so well...

Maybe the trick would be to cook it for less time after all. I don't cook mine for longer than a few hours either.

On the addition of veggies: my last stock did indeed come out somewhat sweet, actually, so I had to add a goodly amount of salt to make it taste OK for gravy.

On the smell: it is our pal Sally Fallon who says that the stock doesn't smell good, but I wonder if that is such a good sign???

When I was at the butcher's, they said that a "proper" chef would cook the bones, then strain the liquid off, and then reduce it again - but the second cooking is done without the bones etc.

That might be an idea to try if you haven't completely given up on this one!!!

Lastly, on the "scum" - I would agree with you: when I have cooked up my bones, there's not really much in the way of scum rising - not like with cooking beans, for instance. I do try to skim off what does rise to the top, but it isn't a significant amount.

Better luck next time, eh?

amanda
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  #66   ^
Old Tue, Dec-01-09, 09:07
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amandawood
On the smell: it is our pal Sally Fallon who says that the stock doesn't smell good, but I wonder if that is such a good sign???

I agree. Sally Fallon was so revolutionary when I first read her (it was before I read Atkins, I think) that I didn't question some of the details. But since then I've never seen a clear justification for why it's good to cook beef stock for so long. And I have seen a bunch of unsubstantiated conclusions coming from Ms. Fallon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by amandawood
When I was at the butcher's, they said that a "proper" chef would cook the bones, then strain the liquid off, and then reduce it again - but the second cooking is done without the bones etc.

That's what I do with chicken stock, although I do cook it for quite a long time first and it tastes good that way. I've heard that a stock that goes too long can get "boned," meaning it acquires a bitter taste from the bones. So you remove them before you cook it down.

I wonder if Sally adds so much vinegar to counteract the bitterness of the overcooked bones. I wouldn't be surprised if that's her rationale, but I think I'd rather have a perfectly done broth with nothing but beef than a balancing act between ingredients that taste bad or give me trouble on their own.
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  #67   ^
Old Thu, Dec-03-09, 14:14
deb34 deb34 is offline
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Plan: IF/Keto OMAD
Stats: 236.9/214.1/199 Female 66 inches
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I'm trying this recipe soon but the bones will be dark roasted, almost burned first.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/recipes/row010414.html

Quote:
Julia Child's Beef Stock



There are endless variations of this cook's essential ingredient.

Over the years I have prepared and used many of them. The following is a recipe that Julia Child demonstrated on her cooking show so long ago that I can't remember the year. It is, in my opinion, the best tasting and most versatile stock you can make.

She started the show shouting, "WHAM, WHAM," as she broke a number of large beef bones into smaller pieces, using a huge tenderizing mallet and bigger cleaver. I have to admit that I was, initially, more curious as to whether she was going to cut her arm off than I was about the recipe she was demonstrating. But she only slobbered a couple of times as her face vibrated from the force that she was exerting on the mallet.

This recipe requires about a 6-hour shift in the kitchen, most of which is hurry-up-and-wait time. So make sure that you have some other interesting activity that will keep you close to the kitchen and help fill in the dead time.

--Richard Blunt



INGREDIENTS

4 pounds beef bones (cut into 3 inch pieces)
2 each large carrots, onions, and celery ribs (roughly chopped)
7 quarts cold water (if you have lousy tap water, buy bottled)
3 large cloves fresh garlic (Smashed or as Julia would say," WHAM, ")
1/2 cup canned Italian plum tomato (roughly chopped)
1 each herb bouquet
Tie, in a piece of cheese cloth, 4 allspice berries, 6 black peppercorns, 1/2 tsp dried thyme, 1 small bay leaf, and 4 sprigs of fresh parsley (roughly chopped)

METHOD

1. Preheat your oven to 450 degrees. Arange the bones and 1/2 cup of each vegetable in a large roasting pan to form a single layer. Roast this mixture, turning frequently, until the bones turn a walnut brown. Transfer the roasted bones and vegetables to a suitable size stock pot.

2. Discard the fat and then de-glaze the pan. To do this: set the pan on the large burner on the stove top, add 2 cups of water to the pan, bring the mixture to a boil over medium high heat. Use a wooden spoon to scrape the bottom of the pan. Add the pan juices to the bones and the vegetables in the pot.

3. Add the herb bouquet and the rest of the vegetables to the pot along with enough water to cover the ingredients by at least two inches. Bring this mixture to a simmer on top of the stove. Initially there will be a grayish scum that will rise to the top of the pot. Keep alert for this and continuously scoop it out until it no longer appears.

4. Loosly cover the pot. Continue to cook the stock at a constant slow simmer for at least 4 hours. Skim off any fat that forms on top and add a little boiling water from time to time, especially if you notice that the stock level in the pot has dropped.

5. Strain the stock through a colander into large bowl and carefully remove any grease that rises to the surface. Strain the stock again. This time, line the colander with a double layer of cheese cloth.

6. Pour the stock into a clean roasting pan and allow it to cool at room temperature. This step must be complete in less then 2 hours to prevent the growth of spoilage bacteria. 7. Transfer the cooled stock into suitable size container and refrigerate or freeze.
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  #68   ^
Old Fri, Dec-04-09, 03:53
gadge's Avatar
gadge gadge is offline
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Posts: 504
 
Plan: HCG
Stats: 28/22/16 Female 72 inches
BF:yes
Progress: 50%
Location: LA Metro
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I'm getting my cleaver out next time. That might help, and it sounds REALLY cathartic.
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  #69   ^
Old Fri, Dec-04-09, 09:05
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Posts: 25,585
 
Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/146/150 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 119%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia Child
Discard the fat... carefully remove any grease...

I wonder if there's a logical reason for this, or if it's just being assumed that you want a clear stock with no fat. The tallow I got from my last batch of stock is quite nice to cook with.
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  #70   ^
Old Fri, Dec-04-09, 10:22
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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If the bones are almost burned, the fat might not be good anymore. Anyway, there's no point keeping it in the stock because it will separate.

So are you supposed to smash up the bones before or after you roast them? That part sounds like fun, but it makes me wish I had a real butcher's block.
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  #71   ^
Old Tue, Dec-08-09, 15:05
deb34 deb34 is offline
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Posts: 1,902
 
Plan: IF/Keto OMAD
Stats: 236.9/214.1/199 Female 66 inches
BF:Why yes/it/is !!!
Progress: 60%
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I think you smash them before....it just seems like it would make sense to me that way. If you were smashing hot bones you could hurt yourself if you happened to send a hot bone chunk flying in your enthusiasm.

By "almost burned" i guess I meant "until walnut brown" so not really black but not just a pale golden brown either.
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