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  #46   ^
Old Sun, Aug-24-03, 00:40
Tiawyn Tiawyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhaazz
THERE IS NO NUTRIENT IN MEAT THAT CANNOT BE DERIVED FROM EGGS AND DAIRY.

But health is NOT why I'm a vegetarian. I am a vegetarian because I do not want to go around killing sentient beings that wish to avoid death and pain.


Well is it killing, or is it pain that you're trying to avoid? Because if it's pain - where do you think those eggs and dairy come from? From animals that live their lives in small cages, that are bred to produce more eggs (or milk) than would ever normally be possible. If you are a vegetarian for moral reasons, you certainly shouldn't be eating eggs or dairy food (or any animal product at all, for that matter).
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  #47   ^
Old Sun, Aug-24-03, 08:57
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rhaazz rhaazz is offline
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Hey aimie -- check it out: our stats are almost identical! You go girl! Isn't it SOOO exciting to see the numbers drop below 150? I was totally psyched to move that big chunky weight to 100, just like the skinny girls weighing themselves at the gym.

And you know -- I have tried to learn to have faith in God, in the past. I used to be in Overeaters Anonymous. It's a 12 Step program just like Alcoholics Anonymous, and like AA, OA is centered on spirituality.

Sadly, I never was able to get myself to believe -- my rational self just kept coming up with so many arguments against the existence of God.

It was sad for me because I was really struck by how much more successful -- not just in program, but in life -- the people with faith were.

Can you BELIEVE we're having this chat in a thread titled "colon cancer"?
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  #48   ^
Old Sun, Aug-24-03, 09:10
rhaazz's Avatar
rhaazz rhaazz is offline
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Default I agree, Tiawyn!

Yes, yes, yes!! I want to avoid inflicting unnecessary death AND pain.

Which is why I buy only organically farmed, free-range eggs and dairy.

These animals are not kept in small cages. They are cage free and allowed to engage in normal behaviors, exercise, socialize, explore, etc. They are under much less stress than the animals you describe.

Many believe that it is wrong to exploit animals even to the extent that these humanely treated animals are exploited.

I respect that position, and if I were able to at this point in my life, I would try to practice veganism. It doesn't seem possible to me to be a vegan right now, though I do hold hope for myself that someday I will be able to reduce my participation in the exploitation of animals.

Right now, however, a more pressing moral concern for me is my general selfishness. Right now, what really concerns me is not my participation in cruelty to animals, but rather how little I seem to be able to make myself donate to charity.

Changing your behavior is a slow process, though, you know? I'm working on this. I have a long way to go.
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  #49   ^
Old Sun, Aug-24-03, 09:30
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi raz,
the universe is here today. either it had no beginning, or its beginning was due to something outside of this universe, since by definition, the universe was not here at that time.

both of these point to a supernatural force (i.e. not of this universe). whether that force is God, can never be proven/unproven while we reside in this universe. but there is no doubt something more powerful than you and i.
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  #50   ^
Old Sun, Aug-24-03, 10:03
rhaazz's Avatar
rhaazz rhaazz is offline
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Default gymeejet, you are cool

I love that articulation, gymeejet. The times when I was closest to having faith, it was in something like the vastness and mystery you describe.

Again -- in your wildest dreams, did you EVER think you'd be discussing this under a thread titled "colon cancer"?

We start out talking about poop and end up talking about God.
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  #51   ^
Old Mon, Aug-25-03, 07:43
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gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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My experiences in MATH class taught me well enough that 1 death from meat-eating is better than the 1 million deaths needed to sustain a vegetarian.
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  #52   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 11:53
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gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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I found some interesting material on Peter Singer, the veggie "ethicist":

link to statement

Excerpt:

Statement on the Hiring of Peter Singer

We the undersigned protest the hiring of Dr. Peter Singer as the Ira DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University’s Center for Human Values. We protest his hiring because Dr. Singer denies the intrinsic moral worth of an entire class of human beings – newborn children – and promotes policies that would deprive many infants with disabilities of their basic human right to legal protection against homicide.

In his book Practical Ethics, Dr. Singer states that no infant has as strong a claim to life as a rational, self-conscious human being.1 Dr. Singer’s criteria for distinguishing newborn infants from “normal human beings”2 (including more mature infants) thus hinge on subjectively imposed conditions such as “rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness”.3 This lesser claim to life is also applied to those older children or adults whose mental age is and has always been that of an infant.4 His assertion of the appropriateness of killing some humans based on others’ decision concerning the “quality” of their lives should strike fear into everyone who cherishes equality and honors human life.

Furthermore, Dr. Singer defines certain disabled persons as individuals who are living “a life not worth living.”5 His views permit the killing of certain newborn infants with disabilities up to 28 days after birth.6 Dr. Singer states that “killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Very often, it is not wrong at all.”7 Dr. Singer’s message threatens individuals with disabilities and contributes to the erosion of the public’s regard for the fundamental human rights of disabled people.

Finally, Dr. Singer suggests that the regulated killing of babies with spina bifida be permitted.8 He would extend to parents the authority to “replace” a Down’s syndrome or hemophiliac infant (i.e. kill the child and conceive another) if adequate family or societal resources were not forthcoming. 9 Even though Dr. Singer concentrates on disabled infants, the ethical arguments and metaphors that he provisionally adopts10 leave open the potential empowerment of parents to kill a non-disabled newborn whose “replacement” would ameliorate their prospects for a happy life.11


1 Singer, Peter. Practical Ethics 2nd edition p. 182
2 Ibid.
3 Ibid.
4 Ibid. p. 181
5 Ibid. p. 184
6 Kuhse & Singer, Should the Baby Live?, pp.194-97
7 Singer, Peter. Practical Ethics 2nd edition p. 191
8 Ibid. pp. 184, 202-03
9 Ibid. pp. 186-90
10 Ibid. pp. x-xi, 127, 129-31
11 Ibid. pp. 182, 186
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  #53   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 12:10
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Wow...that's absolutely frightening and sickening. The same rationale could also be extended to adults who have become brain damaged through accident or stroke/heart attack. What about adults who have suffered spinal cord injuries? Are their lives not worth living as well and therefore subject to termination?
Yikes!
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  #54   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 12:33
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gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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More on Singer:

The ethics of baby-killing

His protesters call him a Nazi, a hater and a snob, but the most interesting truth about Peter Singer is that there are many more like him.

By Jason Zinoman


link to article

July 2, 1999 | On a gray Saturday morning in April, two vastly dissimilar groups congregated in front of Nassau Hall at the center of Princeton University's campus. A band of handicapped protesters, who had come to New Jersey to rally against the appointment of the new Ira W. De Camp professor of bioethics, Peter Singer, stood 40 feet from a neat circle of prospective parents, eagerly listening to undergraduate David Beal sell them on the virtues of the Ivy League school.

Beal, a red-faced enthusiast with a surplus of school spirit, lectured loudly about the glorious diversity of Princeton University: All 50 states are represented in the student body, he explained, and public figures like Toni Morrison and Dan Quayle come to speak. As he spit out his practiced speech, a bitter-looking disabled man who learned about Peter Singer that day began a lonely chant: "Hey hey, ho ho/Peter Singer's got to go./Hey hey, ho ho..." Although a few parents turned their heads, most of them didn't seem to notice at all.

An accomplished scholar and intellectual pioneer, Peter Singer first gained attention with his book "Animal Liberation," which sparked the animal rights movement. More recently, the Australian philosopher has been attacked for his rigorously utilitarian views on the sanctity, or lack thereof, of human life. His most controversial stance is his belief that it's not always morally wrong to kill a severely disabled infant who is not rational, self-aware and autonomous -- the three morally significant qualities, he argues, when considering the life of a sentient being.

In a recent New York Times article, Sylvia Nasar compared the controversy surrounding Singer to the one that flared when City College hired Bertrand Russell in 1940, only to later rescind the offer because of the philosopher's liberal views on premarital sex. But nobody thinks that Princeton University will rescind its offer to Peter Singer. Princeton's president has consistently defended Singer, and the faculty and alumni, like those prospective parents, have studiously ignored the controversy.

Buoyed by newspaper articles and outraged editorials, however, a small anti-Singer group on campus planned an early morning protest to boost its cause. The anti-Singer rally featured about 200 sign-toting protesters, several of whom made short, orchestrated speeches. From their commentary, it appeared that few had read more than brief excerpts from Singer's writing; they had a wildly sinister view of his philosophy. Many of these veteran activists were part of New Jersey Right to Life, which had held a smaller demonstration at Princeton months before. The pro-lifers were joined by a smaller crowd of handicapped-rights activists, led by contingents from Disabilities in Action and the Illinois group Not Dead Yet, whose president, Carol Cleigh, has been quoted as calling the professor "the most dangerous man in the world today."

The protesters carried signs with slogans like "Go Back Down Under"; the smattering of speeches were laced with lines like, "I'm not a philosopher or an ethicist but I do know what is right and wrong." The general message: Singer is an arrogant, elitist intellectual who has come to America to poison the minds of our Ivy League youth. The protesters called him a killer, a Nazi, a hater and, perhaps most telling of all, a snob. One sign proclaimed, "Dr. Singer: the new Dr. Mengele." Murray Sabrin, a New Jersey Republican candidate for Senate, accused Singer of advocating "infanticide as a mainstream philosophical premise" and joked, "This proves that anything is believable, especially in higher education."

Oddly, when people attacked Singer, many started talking about the danger he posed to them personally. "I'm elderly," moaned Jon Rutkowski. "So what are we going to do next, kill the old people? I think I'm valuable to society."

In the most dramatic example of this kind of personalized politics, the burly ex-captain of the Princeton football team spoke to the assembled crowd. A big fellow with a small voice, the quarterback touched on everything from the abomination of homosexual acts to the immorality of premarital sex (no doubt he would have been keen to protest Bertrand Russell as well). The hiring of Peter Singer was just the last slide down the slippery, tie-dyed slope of moral relativism. And no one was spared blame.

"We're all cowards," he shouted. "Let's admit it. At school, I didn't speak up because I thought I'd be laughed at. At work, I don't speak up because I don't want to be fired."

The crowd madly cheered for their own cowardice, raising the rally to a feverish pitch. Yet conspicuously absent from this event was any substantial student or faculty presence. Chris Benek, founder of Students Against Infanticide, which organized the rally, explained away the low student turnout as just another reflection of youthful apoliticism. "Students here are ridiculously apathetic," he said. "They're just more interested in academics." Yet it wasn't just students who ignored the rally. Although organizers sought appearances from every single Republican presidential candidate -- a pool of people presumably out searching for viable political issues to endorse or condemn -- all declined the invitation.

After such heartfelt recriminations from so many varying special interest groups, why hadn't the protest inspired a more robust response? Had this odd coalition of conservatives, disability activists and euthanasia opponents failed to create a coherent enough message? Or had the media blown the whole controversy way out of proportion?

Despite all the alarmist profiles and editorials, it's doubtful that Singer holds any real threat to our nation's children. He isn't advocating that the government or doctors make life-and-death decisions instead of parents; in fact, he wants parents to have more power to make these decisions. Nor is he taking an active role outside the academy like the recently convicted Dr. Jack Kevorkian. He's simply pursuing the logical conclusions of his utilitarian philosophy -- a philosophy that happens to constitute a perfectly mainstream field of thought within contemporary academia.

According to Dale Jamieson, a philosophy professor at Carleton University, there are several prominent philosophers -- from Dick Hare at Oxford to the University of Wisconsin's Dan Wikler -- who are "generally on the same side of these issues [infanticide and euthanasia]." So why is Singer the only one who gets protested?

In part it may be his own willingness to enter the fray of public debate. As New York University philosophy professor Peter Unger argues: "People have gotten the idea that he is a guy who just gets protests." With his 1991 essay for the New York Review of Books chronicling the banning of his work in Germany, Singer cemented his reputation as one of philosophy's only bad boys.

Some might argue that such moves reveal that Singer invites notoriety, but what finally makes Singer unique and controversial is not what he says, but how he says it. Not only does Singer write more lucid and cogent prose than most philosophers, but he also doesn't mince words. He can turn a glib phrase as well as the next media personality, and drive a polemical point home like a seasoned rabble-rouser. One of the chapters in his book "Practical Ethics" is titled "What's Wrong With Killing," and he begins "Animal Liberation" with this ringing accusation: "This book is about the tyranny of human over nonhuman animals. This tyranny has caused and today is still causing an amount of pain and suffering that can only be compared with that which resulted from the centuries of tyranny by white humans over black humans. The struggle against this tyranny is a struggle as important as any of the moral and social issues that have been fought over in recent years."

It is such direct, jargon-less prose that sometimes leaves him open to popular attack. Singer obviously wants to be part of the public discourse on these issues. In an e-mail, he admits that protests "can be constructive, if people are willing to discuss the issues openly and honestly." While this is undoubtedly true, Singer, familiar with the hyperbole and distortions of political protests, was quick to add, "Unfortunately, often they are not."

salon.com | July 2, 1999
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  #55   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 12:43
rhaazz's Avatar
rhaazz rhaazz is offline
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Yeah, Princeton should listen to intellectual giants like you, gotbeer, and not hire him.
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  #56   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 12:58
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gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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And good of you to carry on the good work of Singer, rhaazz.
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  #57   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 19:44
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Quinadal Quinadal is offline
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hmmm maybe Singer should have been killed at birth. Or is being a complete jackass without a sense of morals not a birth defect?
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  #58   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 20:37
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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gotbeer, let's stop the silly dramatics. i have no doubts that we could find meat-eaters with just as bad as morality. it has nothing to do with situation at hand. in my opinion, society in general has a tremendous misplaced value system. it is appalling to me that over half of americans think that women should be allowed to abort their babies. the taking of life is wrong. no one has the right to end another's life.
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  #59   ^
Old Tue, Aug-26-03, 21:16
alaskaman alaskaman is offline
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Putting aside for a moment the fetid Dr. Singer, lets look again at the colon cancer issue. On pp 175-76 of "life without bread" we see that a1998 Australian study showed that on high-fat diet, all of the markers of potential cancer were BETTER than the highly touted lowfat diet. There's a line in an Alan Arkin movie, "The return of Captain Invincible" where the president says, "is that all I'm going to get, gentlemen? BullS---?"
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  #60   ^
Old Wed, Aug-27-03, 07:29
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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gymeejet, do you really want to add abortion as an issue to this thread? Talk about silly dramatics!!!
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