Wa'il, if 0.6g of protein per pound of LBM sends one in a starvation mode, then even the zone becomes a ketogenic diet for them. the zone recommends anywhere from 0.6 to 1.25g of protein per pound of LBM, depending on level of activity and other metabolic demands. My LBM is about 90lbs, my protein intake is about 75g per day or higher(0.8-1g of protein per pound of LBM). I am not in ketosis, therefore I conclude that my sometimes 900cal per day zone diet is not a starvation diet and not a ketogenic one.

I am not sure why exactly you were in ketosis... something might have brought your blood sugar levels too low for your body to secret ketones as fuel for the brain. do you have reason to think that you have been producing ketone bodies as part of hormonal/metabolic imbalances, not only because 0.6g of protein were too few for you and sent you into starvation mode?

the solution for ketosis on the zone, if one wants to avoid it, is not just upping carbs, for many people are sensitive to carbs and stay on the zone precisely for diabetes control, etc. but
1) finding your own zone, as you've seen from the graph, the zone is wide, and 40/30/30 is only the point of entrance, but not everyone's sweet spot
2) gradually increasing total caloric intake (up to 10 times total body weight in calories) while monitoring bodyfat loss and supplementing with up to 5g of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids from various sources daily, exact amount of supplementation depends on the person's TG/HDL ratio. usually the problem resolves itself within one month and one can return to the lower caloric and omega-3's intake for enhanced bodyfat loss.

Hmmm. In "Enter the Zone", Dr. Sears says from 0.6 gram to a maximum of 1 gram, and this is only for weight-lifters, training twice a day, 5 days a week.



Maybe not in "visible" ketosis, where there's heavy excess of ketones.



See, this is why I whished Dr. Sears gave a scientific reference to his ketosis claims, so his readers can be sure if ketones really are unhealthy, not just because his marketing department said so.

Yes, starvation does induce ketosis, and that's a healthy body function (an irony lost on Dr. Sears). But it's quite illogical to assume that ketosis without starvation is bad?

If your body has a defense mechanism, such as ketosis, to fight against starvation by burning it's fat for energy, does that mean it's unhealthy to use it to burn excess fat? Hello!



You know, this is definitly starting to sound better than the book I have (Enter the Zone). Which book added that? I might check it out.

Wa'il

O.k., I took a close look on these studies, supposedly referring to ketones as unhealthy. Let's take a close look, shall we?



They did not imply it's the only function of ketosis (i.e. no reference to ketosis=starvation) Here's part of that quote:

Ketosis, meaning elevation of D-beta-hydroxybutyrate (R-3hydroxybutyrate) and acetoacetate, has been central to starving man's survival by providing nonglucose substrate to his evolutionarily hypertrophied brain, sparing muscle from destruction for glucose synthesis.

Yes, ketones are central to surviving starvation. That should be a healthy function, I think. But in no way did they conclude, or imply, that it's only under starvation that you become in ketosis.

Interestingly, the study is regarding potential therapeutic uses of ketones. I'd say this is a blow to anyone who claims ketone bodies are "abnormal" or "unhealthy".



If you read the contents of that paper, it is is specifically for epeleptic children.

We're talking about very high-fat, very low-carb plans designed for children with epelepsy, not as a treatment for excess fat. So the claim is not that it's due to ketosis, it's a specific scenario, where many side effects take place for a pre-existing illness.

Fortunately, this has proved as the most effective treatment for epeleptic children. for Ketosis.



Again, with a close look, you'll see the discussion is about:
A 9-year-old girl had a seizure disorder with associated developmental delay owing to glucose transport protein deficiency.

Nothing here refutes that Ketosis is a normal body funtion to lose excess fat. It's silly to expect something to cure everything, otherwise it's unhealthy?

If a cancer patient takes multi-vitamins and die, should multi-vitamins be declared unhealthy?


Good, me neither

Wonderful news.

Sounds good to me..


Read you books folks, almost all LC authors recommend EFA's. Some of us sip it up straight! We don't need experiments on rats with seizures to tell us that

Wa'il

Woah is me where has this topic gone.

Everyone seems to have there knickers in a twist for some reason

Maybe 'you' have not heard of Anne Louise Gittlemen M.S.,C.N.S. That doesnt make her any the less worthwhile and she sure aint no fad!

She wrote her first book 'Beyond Pritkin' in 1988 after being the chief nutrionist at the pritkin institute and finding that infact people need more fat (the right fats) in there diet than the Pritkin way provided. This book introduced the first of todays FFP and it has been improved and refined from there.

Im not about to type out the whole story for you but here are some words about the FFP that may gain your repect.

"Anne Louise Gittleman once again leads the crusade for better nutrition. She exposes the pervasive myths that all fats are bad and that unlimited carbohydrates are good. Sensible and thorough, her Fat Flush Plan is a terrific primer for anyone wanting to lose weight and regain vitality. We recommend it enthusiastically!"
-Michael R. Eades, MD & Mary Dan Eades, M.D.
authors of Protein Power

"What a great program! Whether your starting a diet with a bang or trying to budge the scales after a binge or just tuning your body and hoping to lose some stubborn inches , this is a great , safe low carb way to do it."
-Fran Mc Cullough,
author odf The Low-Carb Cookbook

"In my Fit Camps, we work on lifestyle changes involving both nutrion and exercise. The Fat Flush Plan (phase 1) has inspired my campers to initiate the dietary changes necessary for weight loss and better health."
-Joanie greggains author of Fit Happens

"Weight loss programs are often long on claims and short on results. Ann Louise gittleman's Fat Flaush Plan offers great information and great strategies for weight management. A healthy, smart, safe, effective weight-loss program. What could be
better?".
Tori Hudson, N.D.
Professor, National College of Naturopathic Medicine and Author of Womens Encylopedia of natural medicine

"If you care about your life and state of health, this book will be a valuable resourse for you".
-Bernie Siegel, M.D.
Author of Love, Medicine & Miracles

"The fat Fush is the healthiest and safest way i know to drop weight quickly. Ann louise Gittleman has once again used her enourmous talents and encyclopedic knowledge of nutrition and health to come up with a winning formula. Ann Louise has been one of the great influences on my professional life and one of the first people I turn to when i want a 'second opinion.'"
-Jonny Bowden, M.A.,C.N.,C.N. S.
author of Shape Up, the eight week program to transform your body, health and your life.

Actually, I have a lot of respect for her, and got her latest book.

You can see from my first reply in this thread, I'm not attacking her plan, nor the Zone.

I'm addressing the attack against Ketogenic diets. All low-carb plans work

The problem is when we beleive the fallacies/attacks used for promotion, and confuse them with science. If FFP work, and the Zone works (I think they both do), that doesn't mean other LC plans don't.

Wa'il

Alright then

Thing is why did the argument for/against Ketogenic diets even come into the equation .
I havnt finished the book yet but still havnt come across any mention of ketosis? and its not listed in the index.

The way mouth felt yesterday even with all the water I was drinking was no different to how it was on induction. I dont even test for ketones myself have never bought the sticks and havnt intended to so far.

Actually she didn't (very wise of her ) The claims of dangers of ketosis is from the Zone, and is the basis of Mila's arguments here that ketosis = starvation = unhealthy. This is a common mistake confusing ketosis with 3 different kinds ketoacidosis.

I hope I'm not offending anyone, I'm sincerely hoping for an open-minded debate, based on facts and science, not emotion and half-facts.

Wa'il

Jolly good then, just so long as all this doesnt cloud anyones judgement of FFP.
Unfortunate thread title maybe?

Jenny

Good point. Maybe now it's better

Wa'il

Man you are quick

Hello Wa'il,

answering your question "which book added that?"...

the latest books on zone strategies for enhanced bodyfat loss and overall health are (besides The Fat Flush Plan by Ann Louise Gittleman)

The Omega Rx Zone (2002) by Barry Sears, Ph.D.

Fat Wars (2002) by Brad J. King, M.S., M.F.S.

The Ultimate Fat Burning Diet Primer (1999) by Paul Crane

for variants of the zone eating, (various proportions of carbs to protein, 30/50, 50/30, 40/40, etc. all moderate fat, of course) with quizzes which will help one determine their own 'zone' see

Hollywood's Healthiest Diets (1999) by Tony Perrone, Ph.D.

best wishes
Mila

I take it that my earlier points re: ketosis vs. Ketoacidosis have made sense, and clarified things a bit. But I'll summarize for the benefit of those not familiar with these terms.

1. Ketones: Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism (the breaking down of fat into energy).

If you lose 1 lb of fat, you will produce ketones. This will happen if you follow any diet, Atkins, the Zone, Slim Fat or Jenny Craig.

You don't have to be on a low-carb diet to get them!


More reading here: http://www.lowcarbretreat.com/ketosis.html


2. Ketosis: Ketosis is the presence of excess ketones in the body. It's is the cotinious state of fat metabolism. A healthy mechanism that "kicks-in" when there is not enough dietary sugar.



2A Starvation-Ketosis: Lack of dietary sugar also occures under starvation, resulting in ketosis. (DUH!) This has been mentioned earlier (quoted above) in the "Ketone bodies, potential therapeutic uses." study

3. Ketoacidosis: The polar opposite to Ketosis, excess of ketones, even with excess dietary sugar.

3A Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA): Diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) is a state of absolute or relative insulin deficiency aggravated by ensuing hyperglycemia, dehydration, and acidosis-producing derangements in intermediary metabolism. The most common causes are underlying infection, disruption of insulin treatment, and new onset of diabetes. DKA typically is characterized by hyperglycemia over 300 mg/dL, low bicarbonate (<15 mEq/L), and acidosis (pH <7.30) with ketonemia and ketonuria.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic135.htm

3B. Alcoholic Ketoacidosis (AKA): Alcoholic ketoacidosis (AKA) is an uncommon and frequently missed condition. Many of the signs and symptoms of AKA are present with other conditions associated with alcohol abuse. AKA often is overlooked as the cause of the patient's presenting complaints. AKA most commonly occurs when an alcoholic has been on a binge and abruptly ceases drinking.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic21.htm

.

excellent post, Wa'il!!! my physiology textbook doesn't explain it as good!

this 'ketone' post of yours is a keeper! a mighty excellent explanation... you are the best

Mila

P.S. could you explain me how to post a link from another board to this specific post of yours, or any other post on this board? I have no idea, if it has been explained in the technical section, please direct me there.

Glad you liked it!



It's probably because your text book was written by a professional

The post reflects my understanding and reading on the issue, and I'm certainly no expert. Any additional elaboration, correction or education on this issue will always be appreciated and welcome.


Here's the link to the "ketone" post:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...3689#post383689

You can obtain the link to any specific post by pointing your mouse to the symbol next to the post's date, and righ-click, selecting "copy shortcut" or "copy link address" depending on your browser.

Wa'il