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  #226   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 14:25
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,544
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 265.4/238.8/199 Female 5'5.5"
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Phinney recommends broth twice a day and plenty of salt.


I've never been one to limit salt. But then I've never been one to eat lots of salty foods either. I have bumped up my salt intake.

The other night I was feeling pretty awful just before bedtime. I ate a large dill pickle, and I felt so much better. I did wonder if it was the salt or the carbs.

Quote:
I'm starting my own version of NK and JUDDD together today.


Good luck!

Quote:
I eat an awful lot of veggies on my down days, that might be an issue.


Well, I added a small salad in at lunch for four or five days. My weight went up a couple of pounds and stayed there until I eliminated the salad. I wasn't testing ketones then, so I can't say how it effected them. I love salads, so I'm trying to slowly add a bit of vegetable matter back into my diet to see how it effects things.
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  #227   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 14:26
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,544
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 265.4/238.8/199 Female 5'5.5"
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aradasky
Okay.

I do hope you find a good place, a place where you feel good for many days in a row.


I'm still hunting for that spot.
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  #228   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 17:56
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,544
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 265.4/238.8/199 Female 5'5.5"
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aradasky
If I ate that many calories, I would gain weight, no matter what my ketones were.


I fear you're right that getting the ketones up won't necessarily lead to weight loss. I've been on this forum long enough to see that some people turn the ketostix dark purple and don't lose much. And others can't even get a trace reading and lose lots. Shrug.

I found this.

Quote:
Urinary ketones reflect serum ketone concentration but do not relate to weight loss in overweight premenopausal women following a low-carbohydrate/high-protein diet.

Abstract
This study examined the effect of a low-carbohydrate/high-protein diet on serum and urine ketone body concentrations. Thirteen overweight premenopausal women aged 32 to 45 years consumed < or =20 g carbohydrate/day with liberal intakes of protein and fat for 2 weeks; thereafter, carbohydrate intake increased 5 g/week for 10 weeks. Women were weighed and provided fasting urine and blood samples to detect urinary ketones and quantify serum ketone concentrations, respectively, at baseline and weeks 1 to 4, 6, and 12. Women lost 8.3%+/-2.8% of initial body weight by week 12. Serum beta-hydroxybutyrate production was highest at week 1 and declined weekly, with all values higher than baseline (P <.05). Each week, serum beta-hydroxybutyrate was correlated with presence of urinary ketones (P <.05), but no relationship was found between weekly weight change and serum ketone production. Urinary ketones are detected in premenopausal women complying with a low-carbohydrate/high-protein diet and are associated with serum ketone concentration. However, serum ketones do not reflect weight loss.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15800565
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  #229   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 18:30
Kittenann's Avatar
Kittenann Kittenann is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,851
 
Plan: Optimal Ketogenic Living
Stats: 214.8/167.4/170 Female 5ft 6in
BF:restart 4/14-215
Progress: 106%
Location: MI
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Now I am really confused. Could someone clarify this for me. How can someone show high serum ketone but not be losing body fat. I sort of understand that the scale might not move all the time, but doesn't the serum ketones tell me I am burning body fat? If the calories are too high wouldn't I stop having high serum ketones. Can the serum ketones come from dietary sources?

I am still in the process of reading the book and I have another question that maybe someone could help me get this straight in my head. Phinney is saying to have 5g of sodium a day because the kidneys secrete sodium on a low carb diet. I have found that if I don't keep my sodium below 3g a day I retain water. I wonder if I should be supplementing potassium and magnesium.
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  #230   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 19:53
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Kittenann, as I copied from the first chapter, the first posting in this thread says that you can be in a state of homeostasis where your body is burning fat for your brain. However, if you are using this process to lose weight, you have to lower the calories. If you are following their recommendations about protein, then while losing weight, it looks like a higher protein diet as you lower the calories by lowering your fat intake. When you reach maintanence, you add fat in to make up the calories. Not carbs or protein. While losing, then yes, you are using body fat to make up the calorie difference. (I have to take extra salt even tho I could be a pound lighter because of cramps and energy levels being low if I don't. It makes a big difference in my night an day, enough to justify a pound. I also take magnesium and pottasium because low carb depletes them all.)

This is one way of eating for some people for life. It may also provide more energy for serious athletes. I am about ready to end this, I will see if I am still in ketosis when I come home and make some decisions then.

Quote:
Taken from Chapter 1
Defining 'Nutritional Ketosis'

The second way to define "low carbohydrate" is physiologic – specifically that level below which there is a fundamental shift in your body's fuel homeostasis (i.e., energy regulation) away form glucose as a primary fuel. This shift is the adaptation of the body's hormonal set and inter- organ fuel exchange to allow most of your daily needs to be met by fat, either directly as fatty acids, or indirectly by ketone bodies made from fat. This process, …, begins for most adults when total carbohydrate is restricted to less than 60 grams per day along with a moderate intake of protein. After a few weeks at this level, the primary serum 'ketone' (beta-hydroxybutyrate or B_OHB) rises above 0.5 millimolar (mM). At this ketone level, which is ten-fold higher than that in someone with a daily intake of 300 grams of carbohydrate, their brain begins to derive a substantial portion of its energy needs from B-OHB, resulting in a commensurate reduced need for glucose.

With further restriction of carbohydrate below 50 grams per day, the serum B-OHB rises in response to reduced insulin secretion. However, because dietary protein prompts some insulin release, and serum B-OHB itself stimulated insulin release by the pancreas, (albeit subtly), adults eating 20 grams of carbohydrate and 75-150 grams per day of protein rarely run serum above 3 mM. …

This 10-fold range of serum ketones, from 0.5 to 5 mM, is your body's normal physiological response to varying degrees of dietary carbohydrate and protein restriction. This response rate is called 'nutritional ketosis', and is associated with metabolic adaptations allowing your body to maintain a stable stare of inter-organ homeostasis. This process is dependent on an adequate, albeit minimal, ability of the pancreas to produce insulin in response to dietary protein and serum ketones, thus maintaining serum B-OHB in the range where it replaces much of your body's (and your brain's) need for glucose without distorting whole-body acid-base balance
+++++
When burning your own body fat, it looks like it’s a high protein diet. But the scales go down because the body’s burning it’s own fat stores. But if that persons loses weight and decides to stay on low-carb as a maintenance diet, in order to become weight stable, they need to eat a considerable amount of fat now, in other words, they need to increase their fat intake, which should work fine, because by now, their body should be very efficient at burning fat.""""

Last edited by Aradasky : Mon, Aug-13-12 at 20:10.
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  #231   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 20:00
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,544
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 265.4/238.8/199 Female 5'5.5"
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittenann
Can the serum ketones come from dietary sources?


Yes. Serum ketones can come from dietary fat or body fat.
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  #232   ^
Old Mon, Aug-13-12, 21:01
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Well, I'm putting together my menu for tomorrow and I can't even imagine eating like this without using dairy products. I'd have to swill coconut oil or something. And coconut oil does a number on my gut!
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  #233   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 04:47
costello22's Avatar
costello22 costello22 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,544
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 265.4/238.8/199 Female 5'5.5"
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Well, I'm putting together my menu for tomorrow and I can't even imagine eating like this without using dairy products. I'd have to swill coconut oil or something. And coconut oil does a number on my gut!


I'm eating tons of dairy. Cream is my best friend. I keep thinking about how Atkins had you limit cream and cheese on induction to a specific maximum amount. 2 or 3 oz each?

Today's my 8th day of avoiding coconut oil. I think it will be my last. I am getting a little concerned about the quantities of dairy.

My ketones this morning were 2.1 this morning.
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  #234   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 07:15
narmical's Avatar
narmical narmical is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 154
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 190/186/150 Female 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 10%
Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittenann
I have found that if I don't keep my sodium below 3g a day I retain water. I wonder if I should be supplementing potassium and magnesium.


Lots of people complain about retaining water, but why is it so bad? just cause it makes the scale go up? or does it make you feel bad physically?
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  #235   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 08:30
Kittenann's Avatar
Kittenann Kittenann is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,851
 
Plan: Optimal Ketogenic Living
Stats: 214.8/167.4/170 Female 5ft 6in
BF:restart 4/14-215
Progress: 106%
Location: MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narmical
Lots of people complain about retaining water, but why is it so bad? just cause it makes the scale go up? or does it make you feel bad physically?

That is a very good question. Mainly because the scale would jump 4lb in one day and it would take 4 or 5 days for it to go back down. Another thing was I would notice when I slept on one side I would have to roll to the other side because the side I was lying on felt different, it's hard too explain, like all the fluid in my body was on the bottom side and it felt like fluid in my ear. Weird I know. This time around I haven't been limiting my sodium and I haven't noticed any of this, but I have only been back to lc for a couple of weeks. It is much easier to not restrict sodium. I think my plan is to supplement potassium, calcium and magnesium.
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  #236   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 08:50
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narmical
Lots of people complain about retaining water, but why is it so bad? just cause it makes the scale go up? or does it make you feel bad physically?

There are some who are very sensitive to it and retain it. There is one thread that is discussing this. For me, it is not a question, and I am only affected by one pound or two, but I have to have salt for leg cramps. There are others who need it for energy and to help relieve constipation. It is what you need and are willing to accept. I will continue it for as long as I am on 50 or fewer carbs a day.
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  #237   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 08:54
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Well, I'm putting together my menu for tomorrow and I can't even imagine eating like this without using dairy products. I'd have to swill coconut oil or something. And coconut oil does a number on my gut!




LOL! The only dairy I really have regularly is cream in my coffee and butter when I cook. I also use butter when I do not have my coconut oil. I find three servings of some fat a day, 1Tbs of coconut oil, or 1Tbs butter, or 1Tbs Olive oil, fatty meat, and 1 oz of macadamia nuts really help. YOu might need to add more olive oil to compensate. AND I think you will find that not only coconut oil will make your insides more slippery, but the increase in fat in general will.

Last edited by Aradasky : Tue, Aug-14-12 at 09:52.
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  #238   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 08:54
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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Day 30 August 14, 2012
149.4

I am off this am for a short trip so no numbers until I get back. At that time I will be making some observations and decisions.
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  #239   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 10:24
Aradasky's Avatar
Aradasky Aradasky is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,116
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California
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  #240   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-12, 13:15
Yvonnem200 Yvonnem200 is offline
New Member
Posts: 12
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 148.6/142.0/140 Female 68"
BF:
Progress: 77%
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Costello, I have yet to feel great on this eating plan, either. I stay on it because it has cured my hypoglycemia symptoms, which ruled my life. I love being free of cravings and anxiety. But I don't have the energy I used to have. it has been over three months, but I'm still hoping I'll continue to adjust. And I do have more days when I feel normal as time goes on.

I just wanted you to know you are not alone! You hear so much about feeling great on this plan.
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