I am really worried about the obsession with ketosis and Ketostix on this board. Ketosis is not a good thing because, as you know, it means you are eliminating ketones which is very hard on your kidneys. Ketostix were invented for diabetics in order to track when they were in ketosis - so they could avoid it! Trust me that diabetics in my family try their best to avoid ketosis, because when that stick turns to a different color they know it's dangerous. With too many ketones in the blood, you can go into ketoacidosis (dangerously acidic pH of the blood) which can lead to coma. Perhaps if you didn't take such a strict approach to the LC diet, then you wouldn't produce as many ketones at a time, and this would relieve the strain on your kidneys. It's true, the weight loss wouldn't be as rapid, but it's probably worth it to save your kidneys.

Also, the more fat you include in your diet, the more of THIS fat you will burn (as opposed to simply burning the fat off of your body). So one way to save on the amount of ketones you form is to eat only a moderately fattening diet as opposed to the high fat diet that many low-carbers advocate.

Feel free to verify this information on medical websites such as The American Diabetes Association at www.diabetes.org.

Specifically, the ADA states, "Ketone: a chemical produced when there is a shortage of insulin in the blood and the body breaks down body fat for energy. High levels of ketones can lead to diabetic ketoacidosis and coma." "Ketosis: a ketone buildup in the body that may lead to ketoacidosis. Signs of ketosis are nausea, vomiting, and stomach pain."

Be LC - but be safe!

Who are you, and why bother posting here? I recommend that you read the Doc's book, and other materials that outline what ketosis really is. I believe you have this term confused with the term ketoacidosis, which is a consequence of insulin deficient individuals.

I am just another person who is interested in a low carb lifestyle, with a strong education in biology and experience in this area. The reason why I bother posting here is because I want people to be CAREFUL and not do more damage than good on a LC lifestyle. If you read the definitions from the American Diabetes Association you can see that I have not mixxed up ketosis and ketoacidosis. Those were not MY definitions, those were quoted from the ADA. Feel free to look them up yourself. Ketosis is the build up of ketones which can have damaging effects in itself. When they build up to very high amounts you reach ketoacidosis which is the extreme dangerous effect, which can cause you to go into a ketoacidotic coma.

I support low carb lifestyles, just in a healthy and informed way!

MCG

MCG...I put "ketosis" in their search and it says no results. I put in "ketoacidosis" and it came up with several articles, with info. in them you left out...For example, that ketone burning is only one of the symptoms of DKA. The other is excessively high blood sugar, which is not a problem when LCing.

The article also states that the inability to make insulin contributes to DKA. The average LCer can make insulin. In fact, as the article points out...the only diabetics who get DKA are those with Type I Diabetes. I.E. Those who CANNOT make insulin.

Ketoacidosis can only occur in Type 1 diabetics. Consequently, while this may be useful information for the diabetics on this board, it does not apply to non-diabetic individuals.

Then, I challenge you to tell some 20,000 users that their way of life is not right. People in here are going through REAL pain and REAL struggle with weight issues. WE are informed, that is why we all come here. That is why we read the books. That is why we all try to get as much information as we can, before posting shit that scares people.

It is admirable that you are caring the way we all live our new carb lives. Thank you. BUt, Please do not expect to come here, and obtain grand support for your logic. There are plenty of the nay-sayers out there, and THAT is WHY we have THIS site. We come here for support, and for mutual understanding.

I went to http://www.diabetes.org

I used their search function and searched for KETOSIS.
# of results.......0
If you can find a page from the ADA that says ketosis can lead to ketoacidosis could you please give us a link to that specific page.

when I searched for KETOACIDOSIS
# of results.......40

From their website
Emphasis added

Signs of KETOACIDOSIS


High blood sugar and high ketones
On a LC diet you do not have high blood sugar

Treatment for Ketoacidosis
Insulin-to reduce blood sugar ...We don't have high blood sugar
IV-to replace lost fluid and reduce the concentration of acid in blood ....We drink lots of water

Also from from ADA's website
about kidney disease and how diabetes can cause it


High levels of blood SUGAR lead to kidney disease, it says nothing about ketosis or ketoacidosis.

The first time I was on a LC diet the testing strips that I bought tested glucose and ketones. If you have BOTH in your urine it is indeed very dangerous. But ketones themselves are not a problem. And from the non scientific viewpoint of this forum, the longer you are on a LC WOL your body gets better at using the ketones for fuel, thus less of them need to be filtered because your body is using them for energy.

MCG...

these other folks are correct. There is a big and distinct difference between benign dietary ketosis and diabetic ketoacidosis. The former is harmless, the latter can be deadly.
As a diabetic, I can tell you that the only reason that I would even bother to test for ketones is if I first tested my blood sugar and found I had a reading over 250. We don't test for ketones because they are dangerous to our kidneys (it's the high blood sugars that are dangerous to our kidneys and vascular system), but because if your blood sugar is high and you are spilling ketones in your urine it means that you are headed for diabetic ketoacidosis and you had better get to the doctor or get your blood sugar down quick or both.
Ketone test strips were originally developed for diabetics to test for ketones in their urine as well as checking for sugar in the urine. This was before the advent of relatively inexpensive and accurate home blood glucose monitors. Now those strips are pretty much dinosaurs and no longer necessary since I can get out my monitor and check my blood sugar 24/7 without the necessity of a doctor or ER visit.
Why should low carbers (not even myself as a diabetic) be concerned about ketones? Because if you are following a low carb plan correctly, it's highly unlikely that you will have high blood sugar which is the other component of diabetic ketoacidosis. You cannot develop the condition if you have a normal blood sugar.
Also, if ketones are dangerous, everyone had better stop dieting immediately whether they are following a low carb plan or not because to lose weight you have to burn fat unless, of course, you are burning your lean body mass instead due to lack of protein. Burning fat produces ketones; they are the byproduct of fat metabolism whether you are low carbing or not. On low carb, you will produce more of them because they become your body's main source of fuel instead of glucose, but anyone on a diet with the goal of shedding fat is surely producing ketones as well.
BTW...I've been low carbing and in ketosis at 30 grams of carb per day for over 2 years and I have yet to develop a problem from it.

Wow.. I suppose I should not have put my post in the "war zone" because it seems that a lot of people come in here armed and ready to attack! To individuals such as "btdude" who believe that I "post shit that scares people" because I haven't researched enough. Btdude, I have researched plenty.. and that research has been conducted through MEDICAL textbooks and journals.. not the Dr. Atkins book who is trying to get you to buy his products.

For those of you who decided that, because you produce insulin, ketosis is not the same for you.. let me explain. It is true that diabetics do not produce enough/any insulin (depending on the type of diabetes) and this causes their blood sugar to rise. Because they have no insulin, which brings the glucose to their muscles to use as fuel, their muscles cannot use glucose as fuel, and instead turn to burning fat.. and the sugar stays in their blood and reaches high amounts. Once their bodies begin burning this fat, ketones are formed. And it's true that there is no need to check unless your blood sugar is over 250, because you would not begin to burn fat until after that point. Just because low-carbers burn fat for different reasons, doesn't mean that the same ketones are not formed. No matter who you are, if you burn fat, you produce ketones and a build up of ketones will lead to ketoacidosis.

Now for the few of you who decided that I was some kind of liar or something because you put "ketosis" into the ADA search engine.. did you honestly think that I would quote the ADA with a blatant lie? I am not a liar. Here is the link:

http://www.diabetes.org/main/info/dictionary.jsp

I'm sorry that it took more than a keyword search to find it, but it's there.

Btdude, in no way did I tell "20,000 users that their way of life is not right." I came on here openly stating that I SUPPORT and am CURRENTLY ON a low carb diet!! I just understand the dangers of some aspects of the diet, and therefore avoid them. I was trying to explain this to others before they do permanent damage. I don't appreciate your comments about how all of these people are suffering yet I'm the horrible person who tells them that they are all wrong and scares them. You don't need to rally the crowds with your emotional talk. I feel very sympathetic for the many people who are suffering, I am not the horrible person you make me out to be. Just because something helps overweight people lose weight, does not make it healthy. Bulemia might help an overweight person lose weight, but you better believe I'm not going to support that either.

Yelling at me because you did a search on ADA's website and didn't find the correct link, even QUOTING that you did that, is not evidence that I am wrong.

I am so disappointed with the angry and uninformed responses I got from this post. To the pleasure of many, I'm sure, I will no longer bother to help people who do not want it. I just hope that a few people read my post and will actually discuss this information with their doctors before they so quickly jump to fight an adverse opinion.

Good luck.

MCG

FYI ketoacidosis is caused when your body is burning its own protein for fuel, while LYPOLYSIS is when you are burning fat for fuel. DR. Atkins said he regrets ever using the term KETOSIS to describe the fat burning process.

This is incorrect. If you are producing ketones as a low carber, you are in ketosis (as in benign dietary ketosis or BDK). If you are producing ketones as a diabetic AND have a high blood sugar, then you may be heading for diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). The componenet that you keep missing is the high blood sugars which set off chemical reactions in your body that lead to the acidosis part. Without the high blood sugars, the acidosis does not occur. See here for a definition of DKA: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic135.htm

See here for a discussion on the differences between DKA and BDK:
http://www.lowcarbretreat.com/ketosis.html

You may also want to consider asking a doctor how long it would take for someone in ketoacidosis before one would develop symptoms and need to be hospitalized. The answer is most cases is hours, not days, weeks, months or years.
You also seemed to miss that I have been in this state (dietary ketosis, not ketoacidosis) for 2+ years without ill effect as have many others here. Obviously, this is NOT a dangerous state for me (and my doctor checks my bloodwork regularly) even as a diabetic and since I seriously doubt that my biophysiology is significantly different from the next person, the extrapolation would be that a state of dietary ketosis is not dangerous for anyone.

I have seen that I erred ib replying to the original person. Trolling comes to my mind. And I made the mistake of feeding it. In regards to the above quote, I believe the poster has failed to overlook ANY of what we, the informed, have learned and LIVED. It's all well and good, that this person has READ about things in various journals, etc. But we all have read things. CARRY ON to all the LCers out there. You do it for YOU, not for this nay-sayer. Ask your doctor, and do what YOU feel comfy with.

I'd also like to issue a challenge. Find me a study that shows that dietary ketosis will lead to ketoacidosis in the absence of elevated blood sugars, prolonged starvation or alcoholism (the 3 known causes of ketoacidosis).
Opinons and definitions are all well and good, but you have yet to show that the metabolic processes of diabetic ketoacidosis and benign dietary ketosis are one and the same. In fact, they are not the same at all because there are significant biochemical processes that are present with diabetic ketoacidosis that are not present with benign dietary ketosis (that's why its called benign!).

I'm not even touching the medical/technical aspect of this conversation as I can hardly keep up with it anyhow. I will make a point though. Some people make claims that ketosis is bad to the kidneys or liver or something. I'm new to Atkins and I have faith that this doctor had truely believed in what he was doing for the last 30+ years. That's good enough for me!

Take for a moment to consider what WE the AMERICAN PEOPLE are. We're busy with work. We're fast paced and seem to make NO time for anything beneficial (ex: exercise, food, family, etc). Now look at BIG BUSINESS. They make fast food. They make pharmaceudicals for everything ailment known to man. They make "ab sliders". Just more JUNK for us to have where money can be made.

People think that because they've been drinking tap water all their life and because they're not DEAD yet.. it's OK. Same goes with FOODS. Especially JUNK FOOD. Ever notice that a coke used to be a 12 oz can for $.50 and now it's a 44 oz jug for $.89? Or the 2 for $2 at McDonalds? They're practically giving this crap away because there's still some profit to be made and people like the taste. I dunno how many times I've eaten fast food only to be discouraged afterward about feeling "blah".

Then we have drugs. Woohoo! a cure! yeah, right. I get nothing but a LAUGH at any drug commericals I see on TV now. This purple pill fixes your upset stomach... but.. it can also cause flatulence, constipation, headaches,etc.. ! What a crock! Tell me we're not being duped!

All I'm saying is I want to lose weight. I want to be healthy. I believe Dr. Atkins was nobody's fool. I will pursue this plan as I honestly believe that eating right (sensible protien/fat/carbs) will make me a healthy person.

** Steps off the soapbox **

I have heard all the garbadge about not eating enough sugar can damage kidneys and that sort of thing. I just got back from the doctor this morning.

Before Atkins(3 months ago): Protein in urine +2

Today: Protein in urine 0

Rest my case,

wsgts