I've been investigating performance enhancing ketogenic supplements recently and have come across a few of interest.

First is this one; Dr. Attia seems pretty sold on it:

http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and...erstarch-part-i

The other are Ketone Esters (Synthesized Ketones) Such as:

KetoForce: http://prototypenutrition.com/ketoforce.html

and

http://pruvitnow.com/

Dr. Attia addressed these Ketone Esters in this post: http://eatingacademy.com/personal/e...ogenous-ketones

These don't seem to be for the average Ketogenic "dieter", they seem more like high octane "hacks" for ketogenic athletes looking for the equivalent of keto "doping".

If this stuff works, I'm very interested.

I tried the pruvitnow keto os http://pruvitnow.com/, and it very quickly blasted my ketone levels significantly higher. I was out of blood testing strips, so I had to use the "pee" sticks, but I went from a light pink to almost the darkest purple on the chart within an hour.

Although, a potential thought about this was "so what", just because I've artificially pumped ketones into my body are there BENEFITS of this?

I'd love to get a discussion started. Keto OS is experiencing exponential sales growth (from what they say), they have had to limit daily sales to $100,000 a day, and they only began selling it less than a month ago! (I was told)

I believe there is a potential benefit besides the immediate blood ketones boost. I have to explain my paradigm to illustrate this potential benefit.

It starts in the liver where ketones are produced, then dumped in the bloodstream. This is regulated by insulin. It works in steps, with step 1 inhibition of ketogenesis, step 2 inhibition of glycogenolysis, step 3 degradation of insulin. While these steps are regulated by insulin, the liver response to this insulin is regulated by blood ketones so that the more ketones the stronger the inhibition of ketogenesis and glycogenolysis, and the more insulin gets degraded by the liver. It's a negative feedback loop primarily regulated by blood ketone level.

I developed my paradigm based on several things. Most pertinent here was an experiment where they injected ketones in the blood, the effect was of course a boost of blood ketones, but also a drop of both blood glucose and insulin, and this is the potential benefit I'm talking about. Based on my paradigm, if you see a boost in blood ketones when you just eat/drink the ketones, then it should also come with a drop of both blood glucose and insulin. But to be sure we'd have to actually measure that. Anyways, if it's true, then it could serve to speed up ketosis adaptation for low-carb induction or even therapeutic applications like cancer or Alzheimer's for example. Obviously, we shouldn't add sugar/carbs to that stuff or the benefit gets cancelled out, right?

I agree that it seems this could help people speed up keto-adaption by alleviating some of the "ketogenic flu" many people experience in the initial stages. Or it could be useful in medical treatment's, as you stated.

I also see the (potential) benefits of workout/sports enhancement. Dr. Attia's testing has already shown that these ketone esters reduce oxygen consumption. One commentator on one of the ester developers (Ketoforce) blog stated he "no longer felt the need to breath when he took these!" (maybe some hyperbole) Link to the blog below:

http://patrickarnoldblog.com/instant-ketosis/ (I just order some Ketoforce, I've already tried Keto OS)

Ok, too good to be true? No work involved, just drink a shake and BAM, you are in nutritional ketosis??? Seems suspect. If you are not Keto-adapted, maybe you are just peeing these ketones out, and your body isn't using them?

Also, another concern is with weight loss. If you pump auxiliary fuel (ketones) into your body, is it possible you have stopped burning fat?(creating ketones naturally). So yes, you are getting SOME of the benefits of ketones, but burning fat may be reduced. Your body sees you have plenty of ketones, so it has no need to burn fat and produce any more of them.

I'm only trying to create a balanced picture of what the ketone esters pros and cons might be.

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts...

I think the pending studies of exogenous ketones should prove to be quite illuminating. How can they be used is the question and what health implications, positive and negative, they have is the real question. With Attia involved along with Volek and D'Agostino, you have the potential for a transparent, no BS assessment. Until then, I'm going to rely on producing my own endogenous ketones and wait for the research. There are many who are looking at adding ketones for athletic performance enhancements, and while I might have been one of those at one point in my life, my primary goal is to stay healthy. Adding any substance above and beyond what the body can produce must be done in an informed and controlled manner and for the right reasons.

Eeeeehhh. Be careful here. Attia says some things from time to time to get people excited. A keto diet DOES change the ROQ and that was what the blog post "misunderstood state" was about. Yes, about 4000 words to say, "We know the H/C ratio of the food we eat changes when going keto." I do not think he found a VO2max change. If he had then every endurance athlete and the USOC would be all over it as VO2max is usually the limiter in endurance sports.

I do agree with using exogenous ketos as a performance enhancer similar to gu energy packs.

If ingesting ketones has the same effect on insulin as injecting them, then you should see insulin drop, with a corresponding effect on fat tissue. It should release more fat, not less.

Focus on burning fat in the context of weight loss gets confusing cuz we're still thinking about classic CICO, i.e. exercise more eat less. Instead, think about insulin and fat tissue. When insulin drops, fat tissue shrinks. Does it matter if we burn this fat afterwards? Look at low-carb, it provides more fat, yet produces the best weight loss. Why? Because low-carb removes the disruptor - carbs - which then drops insulin, with a corresponding effect on fat tissue. It's not about burning fat, it's about releasing it from fat tissue.

The only con I see with ketones is it tastes awful. I haven't tried but that's what I read.

Makes complete sense, I failed to consider the previous results from injected ketones.

Then in some ways this is like a potential "miracle supplement."

1. Potentially eases transition into a ketogenic state
2. Possibly drops insulin lower than diet alone (which brings many benefits including accelerated fat loss)
3. All the neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory properties of ketones
4. Potential athletic enhancement
5. All the other benefits that ketones bring. (IE disease therapy such as cancer)

Of course, we learn (usually the hard way) that these "short cuts" typically come with costs (side effects/dangers). I agree this will be an intriguing area of study in the ketogenic community.

I don't tend towards dramatics or hyperbole, but it seems this has the potential to be a game-changer.

As far as the taste, the Keto OS tastes fine. It is in a powdered form sweetened with stevia (I'd prefer no sweetener), and you mix with water and blend. The only thing I've noticed is a bit of stomach upset, but it fades after an hour or so.

Bumping this to ask a question. Are there less expensive versions of ketoforce/pruvitnow? Are there other alternatives that help promote ketosis on a similar level such as C-8 Bulletproof MCT Oil?

Thanks

MCT oil won't approach fasting or a ketogenic diet. And might not do much for somebody who is on a sufficiently ketogenic program--MCT's claim to fame is that it's ketogenic to some degree despite carbohydrate intake. A 0.5 mmol increase in ketones from MCT's might be clinically significant and protective vs. hypoglycemia to some degree for a person on a non-ketogenic diet, where a person with ketones at 1.5 or two might not expect much of a benefit from that much of a bump. I'm not sure they'd get the bump anyways, the mct's might just displace the production of ketones from long-chain fatty acids that would have been going on anyways.

I don't know about performance--but some of the health benefits from beta-hydroxybutyrate or acetoacetate seem to be similar to benefits from short-chain fatty acids like butyric or acetic acid. So there's a plausible role of vinegar or fermentable fibers, fermented foods.

My bias is towards achieving ketosis naturally, through diet, that could include coconut. A ketogenic diet plus some supplemental ketones would at least make sure that certain adaptations that are normally in place when ketones are elevated are in place. Using exogenous ketones to allow the diet itself to be less ketogenic makes me a little nervous, it's sort of uncharted territory. I would probably do it, say if I had a disease that had a high probability of being responsive to ketosis, but some sort of metabolic block in actually achieving ketosis. Or maybe if the diet that I had to eat to maintain ketosis was so extreme that nutritional deficiencies became likely.

Dr. Colin Champ went on a bit of rant on the podcast last year about the wildly unsubstantiated claims on the web about the use of exogenous ketones for therapeutic use and selling empty promises. There are no studies (yet*) that show any benefit of ketones without the lowering of blood sugar and insulin through diet. That is more likely the benefit, not from having more ketones.

He wrote about it in this article: The Ketogenic Diet and Cancer: Where We Stand

http://www.myhealthwire.com/news/breakthroughs/856


teaser: Using exogenous ketones to allow the diet itself to be less ketogenic makes me a little nervous, As it should...buying magic ketones might make the diet less effective against cancer.

The athletes can play with any jet fuel and steroids if they want...just don't make unjustified claims for health benefits.

* one in mice showed potential, a long way from human cancer patients having benefit. https://hscweb3.hsc.usf.edu/blog/20...y568kh.facebook

As a general rule, adding exogenic items to the body discourages the body from making them.

This is seen most dramatically in alcohol and drug addiction, where long-time users have almost no endorphin or dopamine production without the drugs, and withdrawal is sheer brain torment until that production gets back on the proper schedule. So telling an addict to "gut it out" without support such as methadone is doomed to failure.

But it's also a major caution in hormone therapy, where steroid drugs suppress natural production, leading to actual shrinkage of the glands which are supposed to produce the hormones.

So I can see this as far less problematic in short-term uses like the "low carb flu" or in the fourth hour of a marathon than I can as a long term supplement... unless someone has trouble making their own ketones, and then, the risk of side effects would go down.

This isn't about intentionally raising ketones for its own sake, but seems at home on this thread;



http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...51125083815.htm

First off--the paper itself acknowledges that there are causes of epilepsy, such as Glut 1 deficiency, where ketones are the likely protective factor. These guys are just chasing down reasons why MCT oil seems to be protective, even when ketones aren't all that high. And what they've shown is that this is effective in a model of epileptic seizures, not in living human beings, yet. The fatty acid in question is highly ketogenic--so unless they modify it to keep it from increasing ketones, I don't know how they'll know for certain that increased efficacy isn't at least partly due to ketones.

I've seen valproic acid described as a decanoic acid analog, so maybe what they'll have is just a more effective replacement for that.

A lot of the kids put on a ketogenic diet are put on it because conventional medicines like valproic acid failed.

This all brings something else up--even when ketones are high, by most of the usual approaches to ketosis, ketones aren't all that's been elevated.

One possible factor is that medium chain triglycerides and short chain triglycerides can cross the brain barrier. Unlike long chain triglycerides, these fatty acids don't need the carnitine transport system to enter mitochondria for beta oxidation. Giving medium chains the potential to support brain metabolism, beyond the production of ketones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iAYhQsQhSY

The grandfather of ketones Dr. Richard Veech is seriously negative on exogenous ketones salts. His comments were disputed by Dr. Dominic D’Agostino, but due to Dr. D'Agostinos association with Pruvit - Keto//OS I am concerned he is not as objective as he might otherwise be. Thoughts on the Veech podcast (link here):

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/20...e-ketone-salts/

Dr. Peter Attia and Dom D'Agostino talking for 2 1/2 hours with lots of reference to exogenous ketones. When, Where and the right kind. One of the top 5 pieces I've ever seen produced on Ketosis, a MUST watch (listen/podcast).

https://peterattiamd.com/domdagostino/